Talk:Abkhazians

Comments
Someone should explain who the Abkhazians are. There is no use to redirect to the article "Abkhazia". This is an encyclopedia!

Can someone add more content about the religion of the Abkhaz?

Abkhazian population in Turkey
I looked it up and there are some huge variations in the estimates available.

Quoting
 * The exact number of Abkhazians in Turkey is not known, as the official Turkish data on minorities are notoriously unreliable. Some specialists speak of more than 100,000 Abkhazians (G.A. Dzidzariya, Makhadzhirstvo i problemy istorii Abkhazii XIX stoletija. Sukhumi: Alashara, 1982, p. 493), while other authors estimate their numbers in Turkey (together with that of the closely related Abazas) at half a million (cf. I. Marykhuba, Abkhazija v sovetskuju epokhu. Abkhazskie pis'ma (1947-1989), Sbornik dokumentov. Tom 1. Akua (Sukhum), 1994; P. Overeem, "Report of a UNPO coordinated human rights mission to Abkhazia and Georgia", in: Central Asian Survey, vol. 14, no. 1, 1995, p. 18). According to the results of my own field research in Turkey, there are no fewer than 250 Abkhaz-Abaza villages in that country (V.A. Chirikba, "Distribution of Abkhaz dialects in Turkey", in: Proceedings of the Conference dedicated to the memory of Tevfik Esenç, Istanbul, forthcoming). In addition, a large number of Abkhazians are now living in cities and towns, the most numerous communities being in Istanbul, Ankara, Duzce, Inegol, Bilecik, Eskishehir, Samsun and Sinop.

I think we should give both an upper and lower estimate, rather than just the higher end or even a mean one:KillaShark 06:50, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The accuracy of this page is in serious trouble! The author claims Abkhazians have always maintained a majority population in Abkhazia yet I can not find a single reference anywhere (Save extremist Abkhazian nationalist sites!) which supports this shadowy claim.

In fact, the general academic consensus is the reverse. Most claim that Georgians held a the majority. Still others suggest that Abkhazians are in fact proto-Georgians with a relatively recent Northern Caucasion influence. This author seems to engage in "orginal research" which is clearly not allowed. I suggest we remove his writings and request that a qualified person submit a body of work on this subject that meets more rigorous academic standards. We do not need to further pollute Wikipedia with more dogmatic pablum!Dynamisto1 13:00, 17 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Dynamisto, I would rather advice you to consult reliable sources before stating your opinions based on empty arguments. Both claims had sources, arguably reliable and academic. Who do you conceder as qualified person? The writing did meet "rigorous" academic approach. If you read carefully, you may analyze the sources which do meet academic standards. Polluting Wikipedia has been a major problem since the creation of this web site; however non-constructive attitudes only deepened its pollution instead of improving it. Before stating claim of invalidity of the section in the article, use reliable sources to support your arguments, otherwise they are useless blunders. Ldingley 13:37, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

half a million is too much to mention. Considering assimilation rate, and low reproduction ratio of abkhazian people, best guess for population in Turkey would be 350 000 depending on 1963 census of 300 000(last one with an ethnic option). 39000 is just a joke. It is even less than the total abkhaz Population estimate in Bursa and Eskisehir regions. which doesnt include majority of the population in Düzce, Adapazarı, İzmit. Also there are sustantial amounts of people settled in Eastern anatolia esp Muş and Bitlis. so 350 000 wouldnt be too inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.222.218 (talk) 03:08, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

NPOV cleanup
This article is part of the NPOV backlog. Some minor, potentially loaded, text has been removed to reach NPOV. However, the tagged section, "History", does not cite a single source and therefore do not conform to WP:V (also see WP:RS). Since there has been no discussion suggesting further disagreement, the tag is removed. If you disagree with this, please re-tag the article with and post to Talk here. -- Steve Hart 18:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

In the history section, first paragraph, I changed the word "evicted" to "expelled". Eviction is a euphemism and is inconsistent with the use of verb expel later in the article in reference to Georgians in the 1990s. Eviction is usually related to the removal of tenants through legal methods. Lebenyu 19:27, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all Infobox Ethnic group infoboxes. Comments may be left here. Ling.Nut 22:59, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Why georgians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.77.28.177 (talk) 10:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the mentioning of Georgians among ethnic groups related to the Abkhaz. As the Origins section itself mentions, the Kartvelians are ethnolinguistically unrelated to the Northwest Caucasian peoples. --Jalen (talk) 10:38, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Probably the idea was that they were culturally related which was true for the most of middle ages... Alæxis¿question? 10:33, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Not only for the Middle Ages, btw. --KoberTalk 15:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Also culturally very distinct with georgian majority. Abkhaz tradition is comes from Nart epic, and strict respect to elders, different clothing, a strict rule for marriage A strict kast system. Georgians never possessed these. While they marry their cousins, no place for women in their society, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.103.222.218 (talk) 03:01, 13 March 2009 (UTC)


 * What about the enomnym "abkhaz" seem to remind me of Khazar, a Turkic people whom converted to Judaism and ruled over a large area of present-day European Russia in the 6th to 9th centuries? I have some doubt on the Khazars had a relationship with the Abkhaz, except the other are not of Turkic origins. Another enomnym "apse" would resemble "Espana" and "Hispana", the self-names of Spain and the Spanish people (not limited to Castellanos) of western Europe, since the Caucasian Avars and Caucasian Albanians, both tribes native to the Caucasus were said to have colonized Southeast Europe, Italy and Spain a long time ago. There oughta be a connection with the peoples of Abkhaz and Spain, except Spanish is an Indo-European language without a known or proven link to the Abkhaz and Caucasian languages to hold any weight. + 71.102.7.77 (talk) 22:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Origins
''The origins of the Abkhaz are disputed for several reasons. The language of the Abkhaz belongs to the Northwest Caucasian languages group which is distinct from the Georgian (Kartvelian) language family. However, scholarly opinion (mostly Western and Georgian) favors the notion that the indigenous people of Abkhazia were directly related to the Heniochi tribe, a proto-Georgian group that lived along the northeastern shores of the Black Sea, on the southern slopes of the Caucasus Mountains. According to Professor David Marshall Lang, the Henoichi tribe lived near the border of Colchis (Western Georgian Kingdom) and were eventually absorbed into that state in the first millennium BC.[2]''

As far as I understand the word however is there because of the statement that heniochs were proto-Georgian. What source does support this? Here is what's written in the book by prof. Lang I've got (last three lines): Alæxis¿question? 10:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

The whole paragraph seems contradictory to me. It looks like Western and Georgian scholars don't agree that Abkhaz language belongs to Northwest Caucasian group... Alæxis¿question? 10:54, 23 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The Henioch(o)i problem is very complicated. Actually there were two regions called Heniochia and the Heniochoi were presumabely an ethnically mixed people. Both the Classical accounts and their modern interpretations are very conflicting, but the subject itself is very interesting. I'll write more about them when I have enough time. --KoberTalk 13:12, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Are Heniochoi called proto-Georgian tribe in the "Caucasian studies, University of London, 1964 Vol.1"? Alæxis¿question? 16:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

History
«ABKHAZES ou ABKHAZ, peuple du Caucase occidental, habitant la région située entre la mer Noire et la principale chaîne du Caucase, constituant l’actuelle République soviétique autonome d’Abkhazie. Les ancêtres des Abkhazes, déjà signalés dans cette région par Arrien et Pline, furent soumis par Justinien au VI s. et convertis au christianisme. Leurs tribus furent réunies en un royaume qui constitua de la fin du VIII au X s. la puissance dominante du Caucase occidental. L’islam commença à pénétrer dans le pays à partir du XVI s. Le pays fut définitivement annexé par la Russie en 1864, ce qui provoqua l’exode massif des musulmans vers la Turquie. Actuellement la population est presque également partagée entre sunnites et chrétiens orthodoxes» (Grand Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Larousse. Tome 1. 1985. P. 20). Apswaaa (talk) 15:09, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

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Why are Anchabadze referred to as Achbas in the article, even as early as 8th century AD?
The article states:

"When the Achba dynasty established the Kingdom of Abkhazia in the 780s and freed themselves from the Byzantine hegemony, Abkhazia became a part of the Georgian cultural world."

The impression one gets is that as early as 8th century AD the House of Anchabadze was referred to in its Abkhazianized form "Achba". Is there any source for that? Or any written evidence mentioning name "Achba" that early at all? There does not seem to be a reliable source for this and none has appeared for almost a year and a half (since December 2017, when the "citation needed" was added).

So maybe consideration should be made to remove the entire paragraph? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marovaso (talk • contribs) 10:20, 1 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Probably we should use the most common name but also avoid anachronisms. I wonder how they are called in Byzantine chronicles of that time. Alaexis¿question? 11:09, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * "Archons of Abasgia". No family name recorded. But why should the Byzantine chronicles be given preference over the Georgian sources? If anything, the bulk of information about the kings of Abkhazia are available from the Georgian annals and epigraphic evidence. Otherwise, all these dynastic tags are modern conjectures. The Anchabadze theory is based on a local legend recorded in the 19th century. The Achba form is clearly anachronistic when applied to the early medieval dynasty. --KoberTalk 11:58, 13 April 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right. Then the name of the dynasty isn't particularly important when describing 8th century events. Alaexis¿question? 14:35, 13 April 2019 (UTC)

Genetics
, I'm not sure I agree with the reasons you provided for the deletion of the Genetics section. You said "there are not materiel enough to be precise," what makes you think so? There is a source provided so you could argue that it's not reliable or you could argue that there are other sources which contradict it. Is it the former or the latter? Alaexis¿question? 07:54, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Dear @Alaexis, the classification of Circassian DNA project is very bad. There are only ~40 test results, more than a quarter of them are not even Abkhaz and many Abkhazian classified as Circassian or Georgian. Also all of this results are from Abkhazia and the tribe of the Abkhazs in Abkhazia is Abjuwan and Abjuwa is the tribe that neighbor with Georgians. Results do not include diaspora so other tribes which has more population than Abjuwa. Also, in the sources used in the article, there is no similar inference to the sentence. Гвына Юсыф Т. (talk) 09:20, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
 * If the cited source doesn't support the passage being referenced, the best practice is to add the tag and give other editors a chance to respond. Also, are you aware of studies which arrived to different conclusions or criticise this one? Alaexis¿question? 15:17, 11 May 2022 (UTC)


 * Of course. You can check the talk page of the Polish article. Гвына Юсыф Т. (talk) 10:07, 12 May 2022 (UTC)
 * I can't read Polish, maybe you could put the links here? Alaexis¿question? 13:38, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Pavle Ingorokva and "Stalin-Era Assimilationist Policy"
In History section of this article, Pavle Ingorokva's infamous theory on Abaza migration into Abkhazia is erroneously referred to as the basis of "Stalin-era Assimilation Policy". This simply could not have been the case, seeing as Ingorokva's work in question, "Giorgi Merchule", came out in 1954, a year after Stalin's death. I think this particular segment warrants deletion. 176.221.207.244 (talk) 20:45, 22 January 2024 (UTC)