Talk:Adolescence/Archive 1

Psychology of adolescence
There is so little NPOV in this section it is almost intolerable.

To quote, "However, by the time a young man is "in his early twenties, he will rely on his girlfriend or wife to be his primary emotional caregiver." If he can not establish an emotional relationship with a woman who views sex as connected to intimacy, then he is more likely to become depressed, commit suicide or die from illness."

Utter unmitigated twaddle.

There are far too many references into the same book, by Dr Leonard Sax. I'm not a child psychologist, just a parent, but I reckon one needs to make a contribution here.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.2.32.27 (talk • contribs).

Redirection "Fjortis"
Can I ask the objective reasons for the word "Fjortis" being redirected to this page? /Henrik

Fjortis is a swedish word for a young female's stage while emerging into adulthood... I laughed so hard when i saw this, hahaha. /Jacob

Citation needed
"Volunteerism among youth is at a record high". This, I believe, needs to be cited or removed. I've left it in for now.

Double
Removed double, Daniel Radcliffe

Older comments
This article seems to be more about discrimination against adolescents than adolescence in general. I think we could use more information about teenage history, psychology, culture, and such.


 * I concur. The discrimination section has a very biased POV, and a good deal of it is more conspiracy theory than fact.  It contains lots of "research shows" and "research proves" without a single reference.  As for the higher proportion of non-Caucasian incarcerations, the same holds true for adults as well.  The statement is a generic lamentation not specific to adolescence.  Issues such as income, housing, education, racial discrimination and geography are true factors why crime is more prevalent among certain demographics.  As for groups of adolescents being singled out and observed by security and the like, the same holds true for any large group of homogeneous individuals.  A homogeneous group has an inferred sense of power and single-mindedness, thus to people outside the group they are naturally perceived with distrust.  This is only human nature (albeit an often negative attribute).  The article itself makes a strong point why groups of adolescents in particular are singled out; peer pressure is greater among this demographic than any other.  Peer pressure often causes individuals to go against their better judgment and conscience.  Adults recognize this - I personally recognize this - because they have experienced it first hand. --Dan East 07:25, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

How about an article about preteens, as separate from this one? They're a distinct age of childhood that is different enough from younger children, and from teens with their own hormonal issues and changes in intelligence, to warrant a separate article I believe.

CGally81 01:46, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Isn't teenager a kind of informal term? isn't adolescent more appreciate as the title o encyclopedia article? -- Taku 00:51 19 May 2003 (UTC)

Does anyone have access to an Oxford English Dictionary and would care to look this word up? From what I undertand, it's a very recent coinage. -- Zoe


 * Amusingly, the OED entry for teenage refers one to teen2, where it is defined as brushwood for fences and hedges. Nearby is the sadly obsolete word teenful, defined as "causing trouble or sorrow; vexatious, troublesome, painful, grievous, distressing."  Teenage also doesn't make it into the OED Supplement, it may make it into the most recent edition, which I don't have.  Merriam-Webster Collegiate Dictionary gives the date 1921 for the coinage. -- Someone else 03:18 19 May 2003 (UTC)

I want to rename the article to adolescence because -- Taku 03:29 21 May 2003 (UTC)
 * 1) teenager seems a new, inaccurate informal word
 * 2) no all other language has a word corresponding to teenager
 * 3) teenager connotates eleven, twelve or twenty are not young generation. Mere age has nothing to do with important and social changes occuring during adolecence.

If the two concepts are different, address the difference in the articles.
 * 1) Teenager is a new word, but it is completely accurate (it's defined numerically!) and is not considered an informal usage.
 * 2) Wikipedia is written in English.
 * 3) teenager and young generation are not identical concepts. -- Someone else 03:36 21 May 2003 (UTC)

Yes, of course we shall (or already?) address the difference. And to be more precise what I meant is: -- Taku 16:27 21 May 2003 (UTC)
 * 1) Teenager is relatively less formal than adolescence e.g. britannica uses adolescence instead of teenager
 * 2) Not everyone all over the world uses a concept teenager while the concept of adolescence is widely accepted
 * 3) Teenager coonotates 12-year-old is outside of it by its strict definition but body changes, for example, can occur in 12-year-old for sure.

There should definitely be an article at teenager. The word and its meaning have inspired a million songs from "A teenager in love" by Dion & The Belmonts to "teenage dirtbag" by Wheatus. It also is the root of teenybopper, teen-dream, teen-angel. The word implies and embodies cultural aspects of teenage years that the word adolescent doesn't. Mintguy 21:36 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * The discussion is not about if we should cover a word teenager, but about the naming of the article. Why not there should definitely be an article at adolescence? -- Taku 21:40 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * This is English wikipedia and teenager is the more common form and has the advantage of its cultural context as well as the chronological one. Mintguy


 * I am not sure really teenager is more common form. If so, why does Britannica uses adolesence, for instance? Besides, I am not sure why the article named adolesence doesn't talk about cultural aspect of its stage such as drug abuse. And what do you mean by chronological context? Teeanger is rather new word. -- Taku 21:47 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * I am telling you as a native English speaker that it is the more common form. You will never hear an English or American person saying - "Oh... I remember when I was an adolescent, those were the days". Mintguy 21:50 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * And what can I say, we are talking about which one is the common form in community of encyclopedia. If you think this is a preference problem, we can certainly go to voting. -- Taku 21:54 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * TEENAGER = 13 to 19 years old
 * ADOLECENT = undergoing transition to adulthood

They are not the same thing. Some teenagers are adolescent, some adolescents are teenagers. Some foods are plants, some plants are foods. Tannin


 * Then should we need a separate article? My point is that it seems fair enough that one article talks about both, as is the case now. -- Taku 22:02 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Actually I should have taken the trouble to read the article before I made my comments. Apologies for that. It seems to mostly describe years the physical tranformations of puberty, rather than the cultural aspects of teenage years. I think perhaps adolescence should redirect to puberty and teenager should mostly be about teen-culture. But then again adolescence is perhaps concerned with mental as well as physical maturation. I'll leave others to ponder this. Mintguy


 * (Via edit conflict) In a perfect world, yes, we would have seperate articles, just as we have seperate articles about food and plants. But there is not anywhere near enough information in the article as it stands (on either topic) to make more than a pair of tiny stubs. The sensible thing to do is retain the current single article with adolescence as a redirect to it until such a time as someone wants to come along and write an entry on adolescence. And I don't mean a horrible little stub, I mean the real thing which would, by the way, not be restricted to talking about adolescence in humans. In a nutshell, teenager is a Westerm culture or sociology topic with a narrow focus on Western societies of the last handful of decades, the US in particular. Adolescence, on the other hand, is clearly a topic that requires a cross-cultural and multi-species approach.


 * Then what about the new name such as teenage and adolescence or other terms like youngster, youth or such. I know they are not the same as teenage. But for example, I suppose pubery can occur before 12 or after 19 depending on envrionments young people grow up. -- Taku 22:24 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Teenager is short, simple, and obvious. I don't think we need a title that is longer than the entry it stands at the head of. Tannin


 * It's so only if the teenager article only focuses on discussion of teenage culture. If not, the title seems rather misleading. I completely agree that we eventually need a separate article. But now adolescence seems fine because it contains mention about puberty and teenager with a subtopic since there is no much material now besides, it is rather limited in western culture, particularly in US. -- Taku 22:55 21 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Personally, I think we should move all medical information regarding puberty into puberty with a link to it from teenager. I also think "teenager" and "adolescent" are too similar words to be placed in different articles. Any differences how the terms are used could be explained in the article. I don't really mind making adolescent the main article, but I've always thought "teenager" was the more common term being used in everyday language, though I am not a native speaker of English. However, if we should follow Naming conventions (common names) that's what we should be looking for: the most common form used today.
 * Regarding "adolescence", I think this has more in common with "puberty" than "teenager", as it's not a term being used on someone undergoing changes into adulthood, but rather to the process of it, or am I wrong? If not, I see "puberty" as the more appropriate name of the two as the article will contain all the medical information as well, and even though there might not yet be enough material to make two full articles if we separate teenager and puberty I think it would still be worth doing it to make things more clear. As it is now, it feels a bit weird to be redirected to teenager when entering puberty, and to see all the medical information regarding puberty when reading about teenagers.


 * - Wintran 00:10 22 May 2003 (UTC)

The term "Adolescent" is used all the time in biology. You ever heard of a teenage mouse or bird? Tannin


 * That's a good point. I think the best would in that case be to have a separate adolescent article explaining this stage taking all species into account, and have teenager focus on humans only. I know most people hate stubs, but I think they're sometimes better than nothing if they make things better sorted or more clear.


 * - Wintran 00:35 22 May 2003 (UTC)

About which one is common. That is our agreement that articles should be named a common name. But I think this common means common in encyclopedia. For example, aging is redirected to senescence. I doubt senescence is more common than aging. We can apply the same logic to here. I can agree with making either one article or two articles. But if we have just one containing about puberty, adolescence and teenage stuff, the title teenager seems weird. I mean the article named adolescence having mention about teenage seems make sence but I don't think vice versa. -- Taku 02:17 22 May 2003 (UTC)

-

The current OED lists the following as the complete definition for teenager:
 * One who is in his or her teens; loosely, an adolescent.

--Dante Alighieri 00:26 22 May 2003 (UTC)

Tween needs to be mentioned in this article as many of the things mentioned in the article can and/or do take place in the tween years and not the actual teen ones. Rmhermen 14:45 22 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Fair enough. My removal of it was just in response to the article tween being merged here, which makes no sense to me. But I agree the content can stay here, but tween still shouldn't be a redirect to this page. Evercat 14:48 22 May 2003 (UTC)

But isn't tween article is awfully short? By definition, preteen or tween is differnt than teenager for sure, but we don't need a separate article for each term. Besides, I presume a word preteen or tween is inspired from teenage. It sounds fair enough to merge them to here. -- Taku 14:53 22 May 2003 (UTC)

No, because by definition a preteen is not a teenager. Articles should remain specifically about their subject from the title. However, one possibility I suppose would be to rename this page "adolescence", then tween possibly would fit. -- Evercat


 * It is the case in a dictionary and wiikipedia is not a dictionary. Yes the trouble is I think the current name of this article. Today I add a mention about coming of age celemony genpuki in Japan but it sounds awufully weird that teenage samurai completed genpuku. I guess the trouble the word teenage implies contemporary and western society, which is one that we certain should cover, but the article should not limited to it. -- Taku 16:16 22 May 2003 (UTC)

As you see, I added particularly social aspect of teenagers or adolescents. I am afraid what I have done might look like trying to haijack the article. But it is true that what I added is what I think we should discuss. I still want to move this article to adolescence. As I said just above, parts like teenage samurai, preteen and puberty seem odd in an article named under teenager. To me, adolescence is a wider term than teenager. And regarding common words issue, we need to use a common word in terms of encyclopediac or academic community. Britannica uses adolescence instead of teenager, there is also an example of aging and senescence. In everyday life we usually use aging not senescence. I agree in the future we might need a separate article but now what's wrong with an article named adolesence containing about a particular concept in western society, or teenager. -- Taku 13:18 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Excuse me, but how does an artificially created demographic buzzword "need" to be mentioned here?

I thought schizophrenia primarily emerged in the 20's not the teens. The wikipedia article doesn't seem to mention an age correlation. Anyone know for certain? Rmhermen 13:34 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * What I heard is there is an increase of schizophrenia in late 10s. But anyway I have no clue. -- Taku 13:50 23 May 2003 (UTC)

As this article, and most references to it, is mostly about adolscence, I have moved it to that title. Perhaps there should be a separate article about teenage culture, in terms of the youth culture phenomenon, Rebel Without a Cause, etc? The Anome 14:22 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * That's exactly my point made above. I just want to say I support your move. -- Taku 14:27 23 May 2003 (UTC)

Do you really think the paedophile stuff belongs here? It's kinda off-topic, as it doesn't really help us understand the subject at hand, adolescence. Evercat 15:26 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * I mean I wanted to add more about child pornography or underage sex stuff here. But you have a point. It sounds like off-topic. Maybe you can reword or you can delete it at whole. -- Taku 15:32 23 May 2003 (UTC)

It was also too specific, ie under-18. This varies widely. As do laws on child porn, etc. Evercat 15:41 23 May 2003 (UTC)

"Because of their mature body, they become to have more chances to be target of being sexual victims."

Got any stats for this? It's not obviously true to me that there are more cases of abuse at the teenage age. Evercat 15:55 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Not abuse. Maybe it is an impression only in Japan? I am talking about more about child pornography or prostitution. I will rewrite it is in more terms of sex bussiness. -- Taku 15:59 23 May 2003 (UTC)

About age of smoking and driking. I know it is too specific but I couldn't add because I don't have knowledge in other countries or states. I think it would be nice to have a table in each age, what they can be able to do. I will add such. -- Taku 16:48 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * No actually it is nice to locate such table in wider range, like 7-year-old elementary school, 18 college, 65 retire and so on. Any though about where should we locate this kind of table? -- Taku 16:50 23 May 2003 (UTC)


 * Not here, please. Create a new page. Evercat 16:50 23 May 2003 (UTC)

''Maturity in body leads to an interest in sexual activities, sometimes leading to teenage pregnancy. Since they may not be emotionally mature enough or financially able to support children, the latter is usually considered problematic.''
 * This is major POV / cultural bias

ADOLESCENCE: The period in one's development from childhood to adultery. Lee M 19:01, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

--


 * The word derives from the Latin verb adolescere meaning, literally, "to begin to be smelly."

I can see how you would think that, but Merriam-Webster derives adolescere from alescere, "to grow," related to altus. - Montr&eacute;alais 15:52, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Should information about Power Rangers be on this page? I vote to delete this information

Silly pictures/Is japan the only culture with coming of age?
The three pictures included are without captions and look rather out of place compared to the text as a whole. The second picture, especially, looks like someone thought it might be cute to upload a picture of themselves and their sister on wikipedia (the file description = SEXY DH AND EBAY). Also, there are numerous references to a japanese coming of age as if no other culture had one. I'm not familiar enough with wikipedia editing to dare do anything big, but that ridiculous picture is going.

Timothy
Is it really true that Timothy (the alleged recipient of the New Testament letters bearing that name) became famous in his teens, or even that he was a church leader in his teens? There's nothing in the letters themselves to support that idea. Gareth McCaughan 14:49, 2005 Apr 10 (UTC)

The Picture of Cupid & Psyche
Don't you think that painting is neccessary? I mean ith as nothing to do with being a teenager at all. I think someone should remove that picture and replace it with an actual photo of an attractive teenager.


 * I agree. The painting of Cupid and Psyche lends nothing to the article whatsoever.  If anything it gives the entire article a sexual bias.  I do not think it is appropriate, and will remove it until someone can find something better, or can provide a reasonable argument as to how a painting of two scantily clad symbols of Greek mythology embodies adolescence.  --Dan East 06:58, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

The picture should stay. The picture and the story of cupid is one of the greatest stories of adolecents of all time. It emboddies disobeying of authority, and pure love of youth. I think it should stay.

I don't think it needs to be there at all personally, yeah, it may be an adolescent story, but they belong more in Greek mythology then an article about adolescence. Just my humble opinion...--Azathar 20:13, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

The Pre-teen Picture
Can I ask why the image  was removed? It showed a "typical" pre-teen, and I think it fit in well with the section and the article in general. If it's unverifiable, perhaps something else should be put in its place.--Azathar 20:21, 18 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, Zzyzx11 left an explanation: no source was cited, and the image had been on Wikipedia for more than 7 days, so it was candidate for "speedy deletion". I think this policy is a bit harsh.  IMO, that is not adequate justification for immediate deletion without discussion or warning.  Such a "drastic" measure is better left for blatantly inappropriate articles.  --Dan East 22:37, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

IRC Channel on Undernet
I took the liberty to remove this parapgraph. It is obviously not appropriate.

Too general
"To a girl approaching her teen years, fashion and hygiene (and sometimes the eating disorders that develop as a result of over-concern about these things) come to be a bigger part of her life, and males start to become attractive. To a preteen boy, sports and hanging out tend to matter more in the late childhood." Sounds like a lot of generalization and assumptions instead of evidence or at least supported facts.
 * I agree. This section makes assumptions and seems somewhat stereotypical, I think. Besides, sports can matter a whole lot to some teenage girls too... and some boys become concerned about their looks. Chavila 18:47, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Evolutionary Psycology
I think a section on the evolutionary (supposed) basis for adolesence would be relevent. There was a article in New Scientist or SciAm on this. For example the Rebellion and independance aspects are meant to be so young people would leave the tribe/village, and challenge the existing order.

Causes of Death
"The three leading causes of death of teenagers are car accidents, suicides, and homicides."

Does anyone know if this is worldwide or just a specific country (US, if any, probably)? Where's this from? J•A•K 18:03, 2 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm pretty sure that's just the U.S. See here.

More info needed
There's nothing here about mood swings, depression, self-esteem. Also, a lot more concrete facts/statistics could be used. Will try to work on this when I have time. Suggestions are welcome. Gflores Talk 20:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Famous teenagers
Why the subcategory "List of famous teenagers" when you've already got four subcategories on the same thing, organized by profession? Shouldn't those kids in "List of famous teenagers" be sorted into the other four, if they aren't already? Fbv65edel 21:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd really like to see the "teenagers in fiction" and such stuff disappear from this article. Keep it focussed and move that elsewhere - preferably to a category but to a list if you must. The lists currently presented are woefully incomplete and distract from what should be a serious article. I was tempted to just be bold and delete it, but I'll let you guys sort it. Cheers. --kingboyk 07:54, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Links
Under "teenager", the link to the teenager main page leads directly back to...the same page its posted in (this one). Removal, perhaps? Delta 22:49, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Teenager redirect
The Teenager subsection begins, "Main articles: Teenager and Youth". Yet Teenager redirects right back to Adolesence. What gives? —Alex 03:34, 27 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Exact same question as above :) But no fear, mine probably wasn't as clear anyways. I believe it should be removed. I will remove it, but if others can give a good link then, by all means, put it back.

POV-Discrimination Against Adolescents
The Discrimination against adolescents section is very biased towards the teenager. Many of the facts are vauge and unsited. There is nothing mentioned to the reasoning behind discrimination against adolescnets or reasons why. Some of the arguements in the section refer to adolescents being called "second class" citizens and other POV violating claims. The second paragraph in the section mentions that "research has proven" but no link or siting is listed. If anybody has any other thoughts on this, do share. If not I will update and change the section to make it POV nuetral --Fender5 00:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)


 * This is very biased. Please change it ASAP. Thanks! Ksax 20:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I'm taking this out for now. The POV and sources tags have only been up for a few days -- normally I'd favor leaving them up longer, but this section is so blatantly POV and essay-ish I think a few days is enough.  (Plus, the tag says the neutrality is "disputed", but it seems everyone but the orginial contributor agrees the section is POV.)  If anyone can come up with some NPOV text on discrimination, feel free to add it.  --Allen 16:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC)


 * I think it only really warrants a sentence or two - essentially, it amounts to the fact that people tend to judge others by age and that doing so is a logical fallacy. It isn't as though there is a particular amount of citable research showing that it is a problem, excepting maybe some sociology papers that someone might dig up if they were feeling particularly inspired.  Falcon 02:21, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

Notable teens?
This section seems kinda useless to me, it's just a random assortment of adolescent characters that don't necessarily present an accurate view of youth. Superheroes, like the Teen Titans, Superman in Smallville, and the X-men have honestly as much to do with youth as Bob Barker. How about something that contributes to the topic, rather than just a random bit of pop culture?

What's a Wikipedia article without a woeful lack on information on something actually applicable (look at the "Nigeria" article), followed by a list of random references to sci-fi, anime, comic books, or video games? Think about the kind of people that have the time to spend all day editing information on here. It's scary. - Anonymous
 * Agreed. Deleting. - Centrx 05:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

commons
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Adolescence

teens as minors
Is it as common as I think for the term "teen" to be used incorrectly to refer to minor teens only. It seems to me that sometimes people forget teen also includes 18 and 19 year olds. I've heard, for example, people discussing whether teens in the U.S. should be able to vote but since 18 and 19 year old can already vote, it seems they where using the term incorrectly to refer to minor teens only. Should this be discussed in the article? --Cab88 12:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
 * I think you're right, that "teen" often refers to a particular set (often starting at age 14, not 13, because that's the age when most people start high school. This may also be why 19-year-olds are sometimes excluded, as they're usually out of high school.)  In a completely different context, that of pornography, "teen" refers almost exclusively to 18- and 19-year-olds as any younger would be illegal! "Teenager" redirects to this article, so if there's a place to add this info without it being too clumsy then I think it would be a perfectly fine addition. --Icarus 06:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
 * The term "teenager" refers to people as young as thirteen and as old as nineteen, however, it excludes eighteen and nineteen-year-olds in some contexts. Jecowa 02:47, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Question: Please Answer
What are teens considered? Are they children or not. These teens are not adults. If your not an adult then what are you? Then your probally a Child. There not young adults because young adults range in there 20's. Most people call teens kids alongside calling them teens. Even teens when refrencing other teens say "oh it was that kid" or "hey kid got any change" Even a news program for young people that airs on ABC is called "TeenKid's" News. Many young people want to consider themselves adults or young adults just because it makes them feel better or great then they ever were. Isn't adolesence a stage in childhood or more obviously the last one? Anyone under 18 is considred a minor, juvenile, child, etc. I somebody has to adress this issue. You need to show both sides not just tell you opinion, you need to show both sides.

Anyone under 18 is a child.Hmrox 05:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
 * Anyone under 18 (in the US, at least) is a minor. In some contexts, "minor" and "child" are synonyms. In other contexts, "child" means prepubescent and "adolescent" is a separate categorization. There's no simple "yes" or "no" answer. --Icarus (Hi!) 06:46, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Both are not adults, but one group is far more emotionally, sexually, and biologically mature than the other. Saying adolescence is a stage in childhood is like saying old age is a stage of adulthood. Some similarities, but even more differences. In any case, I've heard people in their twenties referred to as "kid". Terminology does not prove fact. And if you go back a few centuries, the "end of childhood" bar ends even earlier, at around 12. The Vikings, Japanese, Jews, and many other races and cultures had and still have rites of passage around 12-13. Lord Patrick 07:58, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

Confirmation
Confirmatiom in Christianity is not considered at least in the Catholic Church a "rite of passage" it is a ritual that makes you more closer Christ ant the Church community.
 * In the church I grew up in, it was also the time at which you were officially an adult member of the church, a member in your own right instead of by default through your parents' membership. This is, by definition, a coming of age. --Icarus (Hi!) 03:19, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I did say it WASN'T a "Rite of Passage" in the Catholic Church..
 * Sorry, but I don't understand what you mean now. Are you saying that the Catholic church is different from the church I had experience with? Or that regardless, it should not be considered a rite of passage? Or something else entirely? --Icarus (Hi!) 22:12, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a diffrence between being being considered and what something really is. To SOME People it's CONSIDRED a "Rite of Passage" but in reality it is not in that of the Catholic Church I can only speak for the Catholic Church, and not these Protestant Churches. In the Catholic Church it is a Rite that brings a person closer to Christ and the Community. In the Eastern Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church Infants recieve the Sacrament of Confirmation and your telling me that these infants are going through a right of passage. Please.. Give me a break and enough with this.
 * Hey, no need to get annoyed. I'm not trying to give you a problem, just to understand what the problem is. Thanks for clarifying what you said earlier. In the denominations where infants receive this sacrament, it clearly is not functioning in any way as a rite of passage. I do not agree with removing the entire reference, however, as in some denominations (like you, I can only speak for ones I'm familiar with) it is a de facto rite of passage due to being widely considered such, and because some denominations use it to mark the point at which a member becomes a member in their own right, rather than as en extention of their parents' membership.


 * The section you just removed states that this is only in some denominations, and it could be clarified further if necessary. I'll try to do so now; if you think it still needs to be altered for clarity, I hope that you make any minor changes you think are necessary or come back to this talk page to suggest ways it might be improved. --Icarus (Hi!) 05:36, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

history of the 'adolescence' concept
Does anyone know when this word first came into usage, and what exactly it was meant to denote? Who is responsible for first describing this period of development as 'adolescence'? It would be interesting if anyone knows the history.--DANK 06:47, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

opinions take place in this article
In the felelings of an adolescent it says that they're not mentally or emotionally able to handle sex which could be true but maybe not for some cases. It also says they can't financially have a baby, what if they both have good paying jobs. OPINIONS TAKE PLACE IN THIS ARTICLE —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.157.42.68 (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2006 (UTC).

Rampant Use Of Stereotypes, Unimpartiality, And Religiously & Culturally Influenced Opinions
The whole "Psychology of Adolescents" section deserves no place on Wikipedia. The author keeps on presenting the opinions of a certain

Leonard Sax, who is clearly a very right-wing, conservative, opinionated individual. Furthermore, his opinions are presented as being fact

(Repeatedly) simply by placing them in quotation marks. What's more, these rather extreme opinions of one sort aren't even counterbalanced by

extreme views of another sort.

But my main qualm lies with that it's not very hard to argue that the said opinions, presented as fact, are wrong. What's more, they are

almost certainly influenced by the religious and cultural status quo in one small place in the world. In order to back this up with evidence,

as the article's writer didn't, I shall analyse the offending parts of the article below.

'adolescents are not mentally or emotionally prepared to handle feelings and emotions that come with sex' This particular sweeping generalisation doesn't even have the courtesy of quotation marks around it to try to make the fact it is purely

opinion valid. Furthermore, having no experience of something does not mean that said thing will necessarily do you harm.

'nor financially able to support children' Another statement not even quoted from a source. It appears to work off the assumption that there are no wealthy teenagers in existance.

'"early sexual activity - whether in or out of a romantic relationship - does far more harm than good."' At least this particular statement is a quotation. However, it is undeniably false. All over the world there are teenage sexual relationships

which are positive things. This articles writer is presenting as fact the concept that ALL teenage sexual relationships always do more harm

than good. The writer doesn't even use a qualify such as "Arguably" or "Probably"

"The harm done to teenagers who engage in sexual activities is especially true for girls" Once again not even presented as a quotation in the article, so all the objections raised for the previous sentance apply, plus the fact this

is brazenly the author's opinion presented as fact.

'Boys are less likely to see sex as connected to an emotional relationship. However, by the time a young man is "in his early twenties, he

will rely on his girlfriend or wife to be his primary emotional caregiver."' More sweeping generalisations, only some of which are quoted from the book of Mr Russel. The concept that a woman needs to "Provide" care to

a man is frankly offensive people people of both genders, not to mention the fact that the whole article ignores the issue of homosexual

relationships.

'If he can not establish an emotional relationship with a woman, who does view sex as connected to intimacy, then he is more likely to become

depressed, commit suicide or die from illness.' Once again, this particular part of the article is not a quotation from any source and is presented as impartial fact. The concept that

single men are more likly to become ill and die does have a source cited, however, I find the concept to be spurious at best, and would like

to be provided with a citation I can confirm opposed to the title of an innaccessable tome. I know that this is not a Wikipedia requirement,

however, for such a contraversial statement it would be a courtesy. Furthermore, the claim that a man who is in a relationship with a woman

who is "Not a caregiver" is equally contraversial.

Finally I would like to come to the most grievous criticism of this section of the article. Not only are there many individual parts of the

article, but they are all tied together by an underlying bias. Specifically that of Conservative Christian Right-Wing America. No article can

be considered impartial, let alone accurate, when faced with such an extreme bias.

This is why I must STRONGLY IMPLORE that this article, at the very least this specific section, be put under consideration for serious

ammentment or a full re-write.

Starry Owl 20:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


 * I found some links to some of the sources cited. I don't know Dr Sax, but he has a Ph.D and an MD, so I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.  He clearly knows more on the subject than I do.  Also, I imagine if you check his book you will find the further sources you are looking for.  From it's website there is praise for it from Time and the New York Times, among others.  He may be conservative (I don't know), but I am sure they wouldn't praise his book if he couldn't back up his claims.  Also, there appear to be a number of references in the article, not just from him, including from the US and at least one state government.  In your tirade you don't offer any competing evidence, just an ideology.  If you have better data or more information to provide then by all means be bold and edit the article yourself. A word of caution, however.  Don't add "extreme views of another sort" to balance the article out.  Wikipedia should be a factual source of unbiased information, not a forum for competing polemics.  --Illuminato 22:23, 29 December 2006 (UTC)