Talk:Al-Karaji

Biography assessment rating comment
The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article.--KGV (Talk) 06:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

POV
We need Persian sources on him, not Greek and Arab --Kash 18:18, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Al-Karaji is Persian
Numerous authoritative sources have been cited that Al-Karaji is Persian. Please don't replace Persian with Islamic, if you want to be "comprehensive and accurate". --ManiF 05:12, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * If he was born near florida he was probably not Persian, and I don't see any evidence refuting the claim that he was born in Karkh. Since it's not clear if he was Arab or Persian, it's better to just call him a Muslim mathematician. AucamanTalk 05:22, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Read the published sources provided, he was born in Karaj and he is clearly called a Persian. --ManiF 05:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * There's no evidence that he was born in Karaj. We don't even know his exact name! In any case the article says he could be from somewhere near Baghdad, and if this is true he's not Persian. AucamanTalk 05:36, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Again, read the published sources provided. According to most accounts, Al-Karaji was born in Karaj. Regardless, the place of birth is irrelevant to this discussion, as Baghdad at that time was a multicultural city with a large Persian population. And, according to all the reputable sources, Karaji was a Persian. --ManiF 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I changed "he was probably Persian" to "most sources identify him as being Persian" - both still do not state "he was Persian", which would be POV. Cheers, Khoikhoi 07:55, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I don't know why MaiF insists on reverting my version, given that I'm agreeing with him (fallout from a conflict at another article, perhaps?). The version that I'm trying to preserve didn't replace "Persian" with "Islamic", it retained the two designations, putting the former later, and in the context of the dispute about his nationality (whilst also clearly stating that the modern consensus is that he was Persian).
 * I've now tried to re-organise the article again, still trying to omit the rash of unnecessary and unsightly footnotes in the summary, and placing the references at the end. I've tried to incorporate some of Khoikoi's additions and compromises. --Mel Etitis  ( Μελ Ετητης ) 10:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * Mel, please assume good faith. This issue has nothing to do with fallout from a conflict at another article. I have no problem with your current version which states the facts about his ethnicity, I'm just going to replace "Islamic" with "Muslim" and tidy up the reference section, you have an online shop listed there and two references are listed on the same line. --ManiF 11:07, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I went to check the references, and I can't see either a commercial link or two references on the same line; are you thinking of an earlier version? --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 12:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)


 * http://binomial.csuhayward.edu is an online shop and a personal website. Also, the first two references are listed on the same line. --ManiF 12:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The first two references are now correctly formatted, but isn't a shop (I think that you've been confused by the jokey title). --Mel Etitis ( Μελ Ετητης ) 17:30, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Persian or Arab!?
There is a strong Persian presence in all these 'controversial' article that’s why the keep deleting every thing related to Arab people or Arabic language and sometimes Islam ....remember most of those 'Persian' scientists (if they all really were Persian) studied in Baghdad, Cairo or Damascus and the majority of their work (and sometimes all of it) has been written in ARABIC Under the Arab empire .Also in that time no one actually cared about being Persian or Arab they just say we are Muslims…..Aziz1005 00:54, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * Well actuallly Neshapur and Baghdad were the big two and Baghdad was metropolitan. There is a lot of Arab scientists as well.  Also the Abbassids were run by Persians vaziers and later on controlled by Buyids and Seljuqs.  Note Arabs, Persians and etc.. all contributed to the Islamic civilization.  But a person from karaj (part of modern Tehran now) is a Persian Muslim just like someone from Cairo is an Arab Muslim.  و السلام .  --alidoostzadeh 02:39, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
 * According to your logic, Ptolemy should be called an Arab Muslim (and everybody laughs ;-) The whole debate about Al-Karaji being Persian or Arab is total nonsense.  Ethnicity is a modern nationalistic construct, and in lack of any evidence to what language the chap spoke with his mother I suggest Abbassid is the best compromise.  Although the record is lacking, his working language must have been Arabic, like most of his contemporary scientists in the Abbassid empire. Cerniagigante (talk) 07:54, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

An explanation for the edit warring
I would strongly suggest user:Seanwal111111 bring whatever reasoning he has for removing sourced information, here, before removing sourced information again. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:22, 12 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I already said it in my edit summary: the deleted edit is contrary to the guidelines on ethnicity and previous nationalities at Manual_of_Style/Biographies. I have only reverted the edit once in the last 24 hours, but I've reverted it 3 times in the last 43 hours. I intend to hold off on reverting it again tonight but I'll revert it again tomorrow morning because it is clearly in violation of the MOS guidelines for the opening paragraph of biographies. I will add that I am motivated in part by my finding that content of the edit is a falsehood: I find there is truly zero historical evidence of what the ethnicity of Al-Karaji/Al-Karkhi was (and this total lack of evidence is reported by the well informed source at 1 and also 2). But the lack of evidence is ultimately beside the point because the MOS guideline is the trump card here. Here again is what the MOS guideline says about the lead paragraph of a biography:
 * Ethnicity... should not generally be emphasized in the opening [paragraph] unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.... Birth and death places should be mentioned in the body if known, and in the lead if they are relevant to the person's notability; they should not be mentioned within the opening brackets.
 * Seanwal111111 (talk) 18:21, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

If i understood it correctly - by using your logic we should remove where it mentions ones ethnicity in most if all not all articles? which is completely stupid. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 11:06, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, this Wikipedia policy applies to the lead paragraph in all biography articles. It does not apply to paragraphs further down in the body of the biography article. You are correct where say this policy effectively means the deletion of ethnicity from the lead paragraph in most biography articles, for the reason that ethnicity is irrelevant to the subject's notability in most cases. Seanwal111111 (talk) 05:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

I am unconvinced. Your "sources" do not change what the source(Persian) you continue to remove through your disruptive behavior. Maybe you should read up on POINT and DISRUPT. Also, your "interpretation" of MOS is off. "Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Notability is dependent on source(s). Therefore, if a reliable source mentions al-Karaji's ethnicity we are required to mention it. Just as if the source mentions his sexuality, we would be required to mention it. Your statement, "I find there is truly zero historical evidence of what the ethnicity of Al-Karaji/Al-Karkhi was (and this total lack of evidence is reported by the well informed source #1 and #2", is simply your opinion that those sources are "well informed" or there is "zero historical evidence"(which is original research). --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:32, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
 * It's okay to mention ethnicity, but not in the lead paragraph. Before your insertion of Persian flagwaving into the lead paragraph, the Al-Karaji/Al-Karki article already had and has a sentence about what is known and not known of his ethnicity. I note that you haven't any concrete historical fact to offer bearing on his ethnicity; rather, you just assert a label. Thus, what you yourself are saying and not saying is consistent with my finding from valid sources that virtually nothing is known of his ethnicity. In the hypothetical case where his ethnicity were to be definitely proved as Persian, it still couldn't go in the lead paragraph because it's not relevant to his notability. On the other hand, the fact that he is known to have lived in Baghdad for all the years when he did the things he is notable for, is a fact that does belong in the lead paragraph, as per MOS:BIO policy. Seanwal111111 (talk) 05:09, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
 * "I note that you haven't any concrete historical fact to offer bearing on his ethnicity; rather, you just assert a label."
 * You mean the one you continue to ignore? Due to your own personal interpretation of al-Karaji's ethnicity?
 * Studies on Greek Algebra, Jacques Sesiano, Classics In The History Of Greek Mathematics, ed. Jean Christianidis, (Kluwer Academic Publishers, 2004), 260;"The famous Persian mathematician al-Karaji brought to completion a phase of the development of indeterminate analysis...".
 * The Contributions of Karaji—Successor to al-Khwarizmi, HORMOZ PAZWASH and GUS MAVRIGIAN, The Mathematics Teacher, Vol. 79, No. 7 (OCTOBER 1986), 538;"Karaji was a Persian scholar...".
 * Medieval Arabic Algebra as an Artificial Language, Jeffrey A. Oaks, Journal of Indian Philosophy, Vol. 35, No. 5/6, The Generosity of Formal Languages (December 2007), 545;"Al-Karaji, an Iranian mathematician who worked in Baghdad...".
 * Juan Estevan Arellano, Enduring Acequias: Wisdom of the Land, Knowledge of the Water, (University of New Mexico Press, 2014), 33;"In the tenth century a Persian mathematician, Al-Karaji...".
 * James J. Tattersall, Elementary Number Theory in Nine Chapters, (Cambridge University Press, 2005), 32;"...can be found in the works of Persian mathematicians al-Karaji and...".
 * Marlyn L. Shelton, Hydroclimatology: Perspectives and Applications, (Cambridge University Press, 2009), 10;" In the late tenth century, the Persian scholar Karaji described the basic principles of hydrology...". --Kansas Bear (talk) 23:46, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This is nothing but your OWN opinion - by using your logic we should, as i also said above, remove where it mentions ones ethnicity in most if all not all articles. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 10:59, 14 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I have restored the reference and referenced information after waiting over a week for a response. --Kansas Bear (talk) 20:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)


 * You have re-inserted the problematic addition about twelve times over the last 45 days. It is incumbent on you to to explain and justify it with respect the MOS:BIO guidelines for a biography's opening paragraph. Here again is the guidelines:


 * "The opening paragraph should have... context (location, nationality, or ethnicity).... [In most cases this context will mean] the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable. Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability."


 * With the above language the guideline is saying the opening pargraph should provide location context, and this doesn't have to be country or nationality or ethnicity. Some other way of conveying location is or may be sufficient information to convey the context, as envisaged by the guidelines. In Al-Karaji | Al-Karkhi's case the location is Baghdad (the only definite location he is known to have resided in). I repeat it is sufficient to mention he lived in Baghdad, without any mention of a nationality or ethnicity. Now, you propose to add mention of an (alleged) previous nationality or ethnicity. But the guideline explicitly says this should not be done in the opening paragraph. If you want to override the guideline, you must explain and justify why. And this you haven't even attempted to do. I explained my position on 12 and 14 October, above. Seanwal111111 (talk) 10:42, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

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