Talk:Alan of Galloway

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According to Weis and most other sources -- and, in fact, the Wikipedia article on Helen of Galloway -- Helen's mother was Margaret of Huntingdon, not Unknown de Lacy. ---Michael K. Smith 23:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The current Helen of Galloway wiki article says this about Helen's mother: "Hilda or Helen de L'Isle, daughter of Rognvald Sumarlidsson Lord of the Isles and Fonia of Moray." The issue of whether Helen was the daughter of Alan and some unknown de Lacy has been disgussed ad nauseum on soc.gen.medieval. A search of "Alan of Galloway" and "Helen of Galloway" on soc.genealogy.medieval will come up with all of the various discussions on her lineage. FrancisDane (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Do you know of a reliable source giving Helen's mother's descent from Raghnall mac Somhairle? The currently cited "(Ancestral File. Family History Library, Salt Lake City, Utah 1994)" just isn't good enough.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:31, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * The ODNB article on Alan, by Richard Oram, says this "Alan contracted three marriages: to a daughter of Roger de Lacy, constable of Chester; to Margaret (d. before 1228), eldest daughter of David, earl of Huntingdon, in 1209; and, c.1229, to Rose, daughter of Hugh de Lacy, earl of Ulster. The first two marriages produced children, but only daughters attained adulthood. Helen, his daughter by his first marriage, married Roger de Quincy, while Christina (or Christiana) and Dervorguilla [see Balliol, Dervorguilla de], the children of Alan and Margaret, married William de Forz and John de Balliol respectively. Alan had one bastard son, Thomas.".--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:56, 11 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I have overhauled the marriages and descendants, using various ODNB bios. Everything has a solid source now.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:52, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It's still wrong... I don't know how this got goofed up. I will provide better sources that can actually be looked up without needing subscription. Thanks,  &mdash;  Jason Sosa  03:35, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It was goofed up because people were following unreliable and out of date sources, just like the ones you added from GoogleBooks. We should be using scholary secondary sources, like the ones Oram lists in his bibliography at the end of the ODNB article on Alan:


 * K. J. Stringer, "Periphery and core in thirteenth-century Scotland: Alan, son of Roland, lord of Galloway and constable of Scotland", Medieval Scotland: crown, lordship and community: essays presented to G. W. S. Barrow, ed. A. Grant and K. J. Stringer (1993), 82–113
 * A. A. M. Duncan, Scotland: the making of the kingdom (1975), vol. 1 of The Edinburgh history of Scotland, ed. G. Donaldson (1965–75), 186–7, 250–53, 529–30, 543–4
 * K. J. Stringer, "The early lords of Lauderdale, Dryburgh Abbey and St Andrew's Priory at Northampton", Essays on the nobility of medieval Scotland, ed. K. J. Stringer (1985), 44–71, esp. 50–52
 * K. J. Stringer, "Acts of lordship: the records of the lords of Galloway to 1234’", Freedom and authority: historical and historiographical essays presented to Grant G. Simpson, ed. T. Brotherstone and D. Ditchburn (2000)
 * K. J. Stringer, "Reform monasticism and Celtic Scotland: Galloway, c.1140–c.1240", Alba: Celtic Scotland in the middle ages, ed. E. J. Cowan and R. A. McDonald (2000)
 * Unfortunately these kind of books are tough to track down in public libraries. Until someone can get their hands on these, we ought to follow the ODNB articles on Alan and his family.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Arms on Dervorguilla's seal
Laing, and consequently this article, identify the garbs on Dervorguilla's seal as being the arms of her paternal grandmother Maud, daughter of Hugh, Earl of Chester. But is it not more probably the arms of her mother, the daughter of Hugh de Lacy, Constable of Chester? Chester bore azure, three garbs or and Lacy bore per pale gules and azure, three garbs or. Zacwill16 ( talk ) 13:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Ancestry
Despite the assertion of the usually-reliable ODNB, there seems to be considerable scholarly doubt that the wife of Alan of Galloway's great-grandfather Fergus was actually an illegitimate daughter of Henry I of England as asserted on the two ancestry charts in this article. Scots Peerage says there is no contemporary evidence for that relationship. A fairly detailed discussion of the issues can be found in this 2003 thread on SGM; the takeaway is that the relationship is plausible but far from proven. pnh (talk) 12:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The Henry I's daughter theory is pure speculation. It's based on an assertion that Uhtred and Henry II were cousins, but Henry II's great-grandfather was Mael-Coluim III of Scotland, so there is no need whatsoever for any imaginary daughter of Henry I as opposed to a common ancestry from Mael-Coluim or even one of his ancestors. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 04:24, 2 December 2015 (UTC)