Talk:Alexander Cartwright

Untitled
I would like to see the documentation for the following two statements: "There, Cartwright established the first baseball league composed of teams he created from throughout the Hawaiian islands. His Hawaiian leagues became a model for the modern American and National Leagues of today." I'm writing the biography of AJ Cartwright and have never found this to be a fact in over five years of research.

WikiProject:Baseball
I've added this to the Baseball WikiProject. I've labled as "Start" class because, while there's information here, it's fairly unsourced and there are some legitimate concerns with the accuracy (see above comments). I've labeled it as "High" importance because, as this man is "another" purported inventor of modern baseball, we want to make sure that it, as a basis for a lot of baseball to come after him, is accurately represented. -Sliver7 14:01, 11 October 2006 (UTC) I would like to see the actual 1953 congressional reference to Alexander Cartwright inventing baseball. My sources tell me that this is not verifiable. --BaseballGirl (talk) 05:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The questions of accuracy possibly stem from the long-standing efforts to turn Alex Cartwright into the "real Abner Doubleday". Wahkeenah 17:57, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
 * My questions of accuracy have to do with wanting to see actual documentation of Cartwright's involvement with baseball leagues in Hawaii for the biography I am writing on his life. Through my years of research, I have not found any documentation that he involved himself with baseball in a formal way while he lived in Hawaii. Most of the information is passed down through oral history and of his playing of the game on occasion in Honolulu for pleasure with sons and grandchildren. Seeing things in writing, especially in a format such as Wikipedia, that have no documentation to back it up is like reciting the Doubleday Myth all over again. I think if you look through files at the State Archives in Honolulu you will see that Lorrin Thurston (who overthrew the monarchy) actually started a baseball league in Hawaii. His baseball scrapbook can be viewed at the archives.BaseballGirl
 * Maybe I should have said the "Johnny Appleseed" of baseball. Legends come from basic facts, with "what if" embellishments added, that somehow also evolve into "facts". Wahkeenah 12:01, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Baseball vs. Vintage Base Ball
The opening paragraph says:
 * Alexander Joy Cartwright (April 17 1820 – July 12 1892) was officially credited by the United States Congress on June 3, 1953, with inventing the modern game of base ball. Cartwright was a bookseller in Manhattan, and a volunteer fireman. Cartwright founded the Knickerbocker Baseball Club (after the Knickerbocker Fire Engine Company) in 1842. [ tags redacted]

Firstly, given the context of "base ball", shouldn't the "base ball" wikilink be piped to Vintage Base Ball and not the article pertaining to the modern version? It is talking about the Knickerbocker Rules, invented in 1847, after all. Given that baseball as we know it wasn't even invented until 1890 or so … Micahbrwn 04:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

And references
Removed Find a Grave (also duplicated in external links) from the reference section. Long standing consensus is that this site fails one or more of the following;
 * 1)-WP:SOURCES; Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy.
 * 2)- WP:NOTRELIABLE; Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for checking the facts, or with no editorial oversight.
 * 3)- WP:SELFPUBLISH; Find a Grave is user edited and uses anonymous or pseudonymous editors.
 * 4)- WP:SPS; This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database, Cracked.com, CBDB.com, and so forth, with the exception of material on such sites that is labeled as originating from credentialed members of the sites' editorial staff, rather than users. Find a Grave is not currently specifically named as is IMBd but falls under "and so forth". Rational dictates that Find a Grave, while not listed by name in WP:SPS, certainly falls under the criteria. Otr500 (talk) 21:17, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

47th Avenue and 27th Streets
Up until 1897, New York City was just what today is known as the Borough of Manhattan. There is no 47th Ave. in Manhattan. Where were these games played? NYCRuss  ☎  14:20, 9 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Judging by this paragraph, I suggest that The Book of General Ignorance is not reputable ;-)
 * The club was established in 1845. Many of the club members played ball from 1842, if not earlier, at a site between 23rd and 27th Streets which contains or overlaps present-day Madison Square Park. MadisonSquarePark.org gives this so-called fun fact: "Many believe that Madison Square Park is the birthplace of baseball, since Alexander Cartwright formed the first baseball club, the New York Knickerbockers, here in 1845."
 * Maybe 47th Ave. is a typo for 4th Ave. Was there in the 1840s, or at any time, "4th Ave." near or at present-day Madison Ave or Park Ave, and also near latitude 27th St? --P64 (talk) 00:40, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct...it should be 4th Avenue (not 47th). I corrected it.

Recent edits (2011)
Recent edits by a recent editor has tried to diminish his involvement in baseball. She removed all reference to the first game and Cartwright's role in making the rule which is referenced; hers edits are not. She change all reference to his involvement in baseball to action of the club rather than the man; it just makes it even more ackward to read and diminish Cartwright's role. So my question is who "invented" baseball (not the actual invention which can be debated but the invention credited to Cartwright and what he/the club did in the 1840s)? Was it Cartwright or the Club? Obviously Cartwright must have done something other than be the member and a secretary to get Congress and history to recognize him as the "inventor". --KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:16, 25 September 2011 (UTC)


 * I bid Aloha to KAVEBEAR. I added some more explanation to what I edited yesterday.  I am the author of Alexander Cartwright: The Life Behind the Baseball Legend.  I am also authoring a book about Princess Theresa at the request of her descendants.  By your comments above, I can tell that you have not read my book about Cartwright. I admire Mr. Cartwright a great deal, yet wish to provide factual information about his legacy, and not add to the myth about it. Did you know that Cartwright and his two sons, Bruce and Allie, were members of the Hawaiian League? I am learning how to do these edits, and not yet familiar with providing citations in html. I welcome questions and even debate as long as evidence is provided. -- --BaseballGirl 13:09, 25 September 2011


 * You are right, I don't know much about Cartwright but to make yourself more credible, please add sources. I'm sure you used other sources and research documents to write your book; preferably cite those and if not cite your book. Read Citing sources and use Template:Cite book or Template:Cite web or there is other citing templates for documents but I'm not too familiar with those. Happy editing.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 01:38, 26 September 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to revert this person's edit? There is no one to fix it, she hasn't done anything since Sep. 25, the article sounds like it's debating a point rather than getting the info across like an encyclopedic article. The original version was okay the way it was; it was better sourced and coherent than this mess we have right now.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:59, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
 * I agree with and 100% support your decision to revert her edits. The edits seem and look suspicious nor has she given any proof that she wrote a book on the sport of baseball. Where are her verifiable references cited in the article? There are none, that is why. It also appears that she has an extreme bias against Cartwright as well as trying to enforce her POV. Yoganate79 (talk) 23:05, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

It is quite obvious that this article doesn't reflect contemporary academic sources or acknowledge all the controversies surrounding his life. This article really need a dedicated and professional editor that can bring this article to the standard of a Good Article and maybe a Feature Article.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:40, 6 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The article currently is a mess, and doesn't reflect any research done in the past two decades on the origins of baseball generally and of the New York game specifically. It also credits Cartwright with several "rules" either not found in the Knickerbocker Rules, or which long preceded them. Even the lede is bad, since there's no evidence Cartwright ever drew any sort of diagram (and diamond-shaped baseball fields predate 1845 by decades). Solicitr (talk) 01:11, 9 February 2016 (UTC)

Photo caption
8-16-2012 Addition to photo caption is simply a statement of fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmarlowe1 (talk • contribs) 22:40, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

As i said the first time I added to this caption - the addition itself is a statement of fact. The contrary opinion in the references is held by many. I left the original caption intact. If they are interested, people can read the references and decide for themselves.
 * Don't add url links or pdf file links onto the contents or Wikipedia articles or image captions. Here are my advices for you: either create a separate article on the photograph (there are articles on wikipedia about photographs and paintings, use those for examples) or add the two sources you have as external or further reading links at the end of the article. Please look at Template:Citation] when adding sources instead of just putting in the links. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:35, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Why? - this is not against any rules that I know of. In fact when I first added this i was encourage by an administrator to include references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmarlowe1 (talk • contribs) 19:07, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Photo caption references placed in reference list. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bmarlowe1 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
 * What you were writing look like a footnote? You have to find another way to integrated into the text or it just looks weird. I have changed it to a footnote with the sources you provided.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:03, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20060618012039/http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Cartwright_Alexander.stm to http://www.baseballlibrary.com/baseballlibrary/ballplayers/C/Cartwright_Alexander.stm

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