Talk:Alytus

Untitled
Panie Halibucie, you should consider helping by expanding this city history or it's importance in Polish history, before adding not contemporary name to an article about Lithuanian District center. Altough you should remember, that this city was allways GDL, like Seinai.--Lokyz 22:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Then please be informed that, besides having a significant Polish population prior to 1945, the town was also a part of Congress Poland for some time, not to mention a period when it was part of the Kingdom of Poland prior to partitions. But if that's not enough, check what was the name of the town king Stefan Batory granted city rights to in 1581...  // Halibutt 10:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, and the name of Vygandas Marburgietis is simply hilarious. Was he a Lithuanian as well? :D  // Halibuttas 10:54, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * So why don't you correct it? It's easy.--Lokyz 11:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, in all similar cases I was instantly reverted, so perhaps I'll better stand back and wait for others to correct it? After all I'm just a POV-pushing polish nationalist...  // Halibutt 13:41, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Self portraits are usually the best likenesses. Couldn't have described the antagonist much better myself. Slightly revealing that "polish" was un-capitalized. Must have been a typo, rather than a Freudian slip though. Dr. Dan 14:12, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
 * No, Dan, just a quote of our Lithuanian friends. A direct quote BTW.  // Halibutt 12:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Halibutt, in the future, please follow the guidelines in Naming conventions (geographic names) "Alternatively, all alternative names can be moved to and explained in a "Names" or "Etymology" section immediately following the lead, or a special paragraph of the lead; we recommend that this be done if there are at least three alternate names". Novickas 16:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
 * That's satisfactory.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 22:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)


 * It would be better if Halibutt spoke for himself in this matter, since he made the reverts. Novickas 00:54, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Your're almost asking for the impossible. Dr. Dan 19:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * As long as the historic name of that town is mentioned somewhere in the lead I'm satisfied. Bolding and putting it next to the modern name was a nicer option, but since it raises so much bad blood I could agree to a separate part of the lead. That seems like a nice solution.  // Halibutt 01:20, 21 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Dan, please do stop your personal remarks. They are not funny, not needed and not relevant.  // Halibutt 09:24, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Most remarks are personal remarks, and I'm not trying to be funny. Fortunately this project remains an open forum where people can freely express themselves. Unfortunately you seem to think only your input is relevant. I'm still waiting for you to show the members of the Wikipedia project where and when User: Ghirlandajo, made a death threat against you. When you do, if you can, corraborate this absurd and outlandish claim that you made, I will reassess my opinion of what and who you are about. I'll even try to reach a modus vivendi with you, if you wish. In the mean time, as far as I'm concerned you have displayed a vicious and mean spirited attitude towards me and others for some time now, so maybe it's you who needs to ''stop your personal remarks. Dr. Dan 19:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Wrong. This project is an open encyclopaedia, not a forum. It was not created to chat, slander and offend people, it was created to allow people to create articles. Besides, the rest of your claims do not belong here. Have a problem with me? Settle it at my talk page. Have a problem with Ghirlandajo - settle it at his. In any way, I'm perfectly happy with the solution proposed by Novickas and that's all that counts, the rest is off-topic.  // Halibutt 21:08, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
 * You asked me to stay off your talk page. Let's settle it here and now. Did Ghirla make a death threat against you on Wikipedia? Or are you a liar (something that you recently called me) hallucinating between interludes of POV pushing and peppering Wikipedia with propaganda? And the talk pages are a forum, especially made for you. Dr. Dan 05:08, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Of course, Dan. Certainly. Bon apetit.  // Halibutt 11:14, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Me thinks, thou dost does not tell us from whence cameth the death threat, because it didn't happen. Didn't happen! Didn't happen! And you know what that makes you. Dr. Dan 13:28, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
 * One of your kind perhaps?  // Halibutt 20:57, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Perhaps not. One thing I do know for a fact, is I never insulted your parents. You can apologize for that lie and false claim against me. And by now it's obvious that you cannot produce any evidence for the "alleged" death threat that Ghirla supposedly made against you. It is pretty obvious that you are lying or have a very lurid imagination. At least try to keep that penchant of yours to do so on the talk pages, and out of the articles in the future. Dr. Dan 14:21, 26 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Nope, Dan, you simply suggested they were members of the communist party. This was the insult I asked you to apologize for and this is the insult you never had the guts to withdraw. Moreover, the logical fallacy you presented was that "since my parents were for sure members of the commie party, the facts I present are most likely wrong". A nice logical fallacy, isn't it. Need a link or do you remember it now? Last time I presented the link, you simply ignored it, the previous time I presented it you ignored it as well... Don't really have the time to dig it up. BTW, I was the first to ask you to present some backup for your absurd accusations - so far I'm waiting. Until then allow me to treat your offensive language and tone as simple trolling. You request replies- give them first. You request fair treatment - be fair to others. Request the others to treat you seriously - be serious. As simple as that.


 * By the way, I took the liberty to revert your recent changes in which you once again blind-reverted me without much hesitation. The Russian name for this town seems to be Олита, as the name of Алитyc is merely a transliteration and is not used by anyone. Even the Russian wiki admits that the Russian name is Олита.
 * Also, there are two Yiddish names of this town. No idea why did you decide to delete one of them.  // Halibutt 17:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Yet another manipulation of sources - this so called "not used by anyone" yields 61,400. Strange incapability to use google properly... M.K. 17:48, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
 * Strange. That was unintentional for sure, I guess the reason why my search shows only one link is that Google has some problems with different encodings of Cyrillic, while I simply copied the name from wiki and pasted it into google search box. If that's the case, I withdraw my objection.  // Halibutt 14:31, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Let's Get it Out in the Open
I remember the entire conversation about schabowy, communist Polish girls, and the rest of the garbage that you are lying about. If you are too lazy to produce the link in questio maybe someone else can. In the meantime I reiterate that I never insulted your parents. That's a lie. And I reiterate that Ghirladajo never issued a death threat to you on Wikipedia. That too, is a lie. As for blind-reverting anyone, that's a really humorous claim, as your recent edits on Operation Wilno clearly demonstrate. Dr. Dan 00:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL. Take this link and read it carefully. If it does not help - do it again. And again. There's all of your style in it: offensive and patronizing tone, accusations aimed at my family, pro personam remarks... First you call it a criminality and then you suggest my family was part of it... but hell no, this has nothing to do with calling my parents commies (or Nazis for that matter, since both are equally offensive, especially in such a context)... right?
 * And after reading your comment again and again do you still dare to call me a liar? Sorry Dan, my patience is over. From now on I will report every such remark by you to where it belongs. You disrupt wikipedia and waste the time of honest wikipedians on OT chatter and unneeded offences. If that's what you like - fine, but don't expect me to join you in this kind of games any more.  // Halibutt 02:28, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
 * LOL, right back. It was you who called me a liar first. And you who has added lots of insulting remarks to your comments towards me. And I have read the link (thank you, for providing it), I found the thread yesterday, and re-read it again and again. Nowhere "did I insult your parents." After user:Molobo and you proceeded to pepper the article on the 17th German Infantry Division (kindly re-read its talk pages) with personal opinions and communist propaganda from the PRL, my reponse to you was on your talk page, August 16, 2006, under Communism in Poland. I did not insult your parents. BTW, you are welcome to simply state no, none of my family members belonged to the PZPR, if that's the case. And even if they were, why would that be insulting anyway? And in my remarks I clearly stated, that in the event that my suspicions were incorrect, you had my apologies. And the death threat from Ghirlandajo? Where is it? You make wild and false claims, and then threaten "to report every such remark". Did he make a death threat or not? I'm more than ready and willing to reach an agreement with you, and apologize for all of my sins. Just show us the death threat. A death threat, BTW, is a rather serious legal matter. Imagining them is a rather serious medical matter. Dr. Dan 14:01, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Alternative name
There's over 300 English language sources which use "Olita". Hence it should be included as an "alternative name".radek (talk) 22:32, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Much less, actually (Head of the Department for Publishing and Libraries I-olita -sure does not count), and most of them quite old
 * Second point - it is not an "alternative" name - whatewer one was trying to imply by that. It is just plainly altered phonetics in foreign languages, Different languages use different dyphotongs and vowels, they actually transformation of vowels to the most common usage in their language for simplicity (hence the foreign accent),  and so on, one might want to read linguistics and phonetics (especialy auditory phonetics and articulatory phonetics). And yet still - since one insists it does not hurt anyone. And here comes a question to User:Radeksz - when will you start including German names into articles about towns and cities of the Ziemie odzyskane articles? And Jewish names into mainland of Poland. Those are clearly alternative, err, historical names, aren't they?--Lokyz (talk) 22:21, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * In Wikipedia terminology an "alternative name" is just one which is also used in many English language sources, as is the case here. I've got no problem with German names in articles on Polish cities that have some kind of past connection with Germany; though I often don't know what these are so I leave it up to others to put them in. Also, I think there should be a consistency in naming policy between Polish-German issues and Polish-Lithuanian issues. I've also got no problem what so ever with including Yiddish names in Polish cities that used to have large Jewish populations. Again, I often don't know what these are so I don't put them in myself. You're barking up the wrong tree here - you might have in mind some other Polish editors, but not me; I've been pretty clear on my stance on this issue as long as I've been here.radek (talk) 22:28, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Some idioms might be insulting. I did just ask whether you're going to start adding names, and I've got my answer.--Lokyz (talk) 22:49, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Which idioms are you referring to? "Alternative name"? Well, that's something you got to take up with Wikipedia in general, though I don't think it is meant to be insulting in anyway; though I can see where you're coming from. And yes, you got your answer - let me be explicit here: "No I am not" - but you also got an explanation for the answer, which is also important, and I hope you take that explanation in good faith.radek (talk) 23:04, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * Lokyz, you might take note that the last time this joke of an agenda was argued at this talk page was in March of 2007. Ironically that editor was the author of this very "informative" edit or "alternative name" . Pretty sad. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:11, 30 August 2010 (UTC)


 * And with Dr. Dan showing up and once again attempting to derail the discussion with 3 year old irrelevant diffs, whatever potential was here for a constructive conversation is gone. Thanks.radek (talk) 23:13, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

(OD) No Radeksz, Dr. Dan didn't just "show up". Dr. Dan has been on this talk page since 2007. It's you who just showed up at this talk page and are once again attempting to continue an agenda of placing undue information on English Wikipedia. Dr. Dan (talk) 23:30, 30 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Again, it's only undue in your mind - elsewhere on Wikipedia such information is routinely included. We seem to be moving towards a good and generally acceptable solution here - is that something that bothers you? If not, could you put the insulting language on hold for a bit?--Kotniski (talk) 07:25, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Kotniski, it's undue in a lot of people's minds. Personally, as I begin to peruse the various history pages of different non-Polish geographical entities, sadly there seems to be a definite agenda being implemented. May I give you another example ? What's that all about? Dr. Dan (talk) 16:36, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
 * Just the same thing (adding valid information, though possibly - in that case certainly - not in the right place). And I presume you do acknowledge that there's a difference between the role that Polish and other languages have played in Lithuania's history and the role that (say) Polish has played (i.e. virtually none) in Germany's history? Yes, there may have been and still be an agenda on the part of some editors on Wikipedia to overexpose Polish names and underexpose German names for now-Polish places - I'm fully against that too - but on the two-wrongs-don't-make-a-right principle, that's no excuse to join with those pushing a similar agenda with regard to Lithuanian. --Kotniski (talk) 11:02, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Kotniski, it all sounds so nice and the way you put it even sounds reasonable. You acknowledge that the Chemnitz edit was inappropriately placed into the lead, and the Dresden edit  was inappropriately placed into the lead, yet despite stating "though possibly - in that case certainly - not in the right place" we get you doing just that here  and there . As for the statement "And I presume you do acknowledge that there's a difference between the role that Polish and other languages have played in Lithuania's history....", I presume that you acknowledge that Poland and Lithuania are two separate nations with two separate and distinct languages. This blather about shared history is getting old, mostly because  the shared history is old (hundreds of years old). I have heard the most flimsiest excuses as to why Polish language variants need to be placed into Lithuanian geographical entities, over and over again. By now, it's clear that Polish has many unique names for different cities, Rome is "Rzym", and Munich is "Monachium" and so on. Yet this remains English Wikipedia, and despite the fact that the last Pope hailed from Poland, "Rzym" belongs here  not here . It's very simple. Dr. Dan (talk) 14:36, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

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