Talk:Amasa Lyman

Name
This article should be renamed from Amasa M. Lyman to Amasa Mason Lyman.

Amasa Mason Lyman is the name most commonly used to refer to this person in historical and scholarly contexts. Wikipedia redirect guidlines (WP:RDR) also suggest redirecting from articles with abbreviated titles. Renaming this article will preserve the content and automatically redirect anyone searching for Amasa M. Lyman to the Amasa Mason Lyman article.

Also note: a Google search currently returns about 745 hits on "Amasa Mason Lyman" and 395 on "Amasa M. Lyman".

Justin 20:14, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

M. or Mason?
This article was recently renamed Amasa M. Lyman. The Wikipedia Manual of Style for biographies (WP:MOSBIO) recommends using the name by which the subject is most commonly known. It's traditional in the LDS movement to use middle initials, particularly to avoid confusion with common names, but in this case, the subject is more commonly known by his full name. There are now 979 Google hits for "Amasa Mason Lyman", 971 for "Amasa Lyman", and 580 for "Amasa M. Lyman". In most scholarly and historical texts, the full name is used. Is there any evidence suggesting that "Amasa M. Lyman" is the name by which he was more commonly known? - Justin (Authalic) 17:22, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Your "Google survey" is faulty. Google counts the number of pages on which a term appears, not the number of times the term appears on the Internet. Many of the entries that contain "Amasa M. Lyman" will also include "Amasa Mason Lyman", because they are commonly biography pages that include a person's full given name at the start of the article. Such a page would count 1 hit for "Amasa Mason Lyman" and 1 hit for "Amasa M. Lyman", even if the page uses "Amasa M. Lyman" 25 times and "Amasa Mason Lyman" once. Just because the full given name is included on a biography page doesn't mean it is commonly used. So why are we using Google surveys as the standard?? I suggest we find a more reliable method of determining most commonly used name. I would note that when he was alive, it appears that he was most commonly referred to simply as "Amasa Lyman" (see e.g., History of the Church, vol. 5, pp. 120, 255). SESmith 19:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm aware of the problems with citing the number of Google hits on a search term. You are correct that Google counts the number of pages on which a term appears and that many pages about Amasa M. Lyman will likely include his full name.  I'm just saying that this is a peculiar case in that references to this individual usually include his first and last name only, or his full name, not a middle initial.


 * With all of the faults inherent in a Google search, if the "Amasa M. Lyman" usage were the most common, the highest number of pages would be returned under that search term. If there is a better standard, I'm completely open to what it might be.  I have done some research on this person, and most contemporary references to him use his full name or just "Amasa Lyman".  It wasn't until later (after his lifetime) that the abbreviation began to be used, and that was mostly to be consistent with every other name which traditionally used a middle initial.


 * For comparison, look at the number of hits for "Parley P. Pratt" (57,000) to "Parley Parker Pratt" (2,540) and "Richard R Lyman" (491) to "Richard Roswell Lyman" (129). The abbreviation is clearly more widely used in those cases.  "Amasa Mason Lyman" happens to be more widely used than "Amasa M. Lyman".  - Justin (Authalic) 20:41, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * We are confusing the issues a bit. Are we trying to determine what name he was most commonly known by when he was alive, or the name he is most commonly known by today? You suggest that we need to know the most common name when he was alive. If so, I think we'd have to go with "Amasa Lyman". -SESmith 20:46, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * That gets difficult. I can't provide any examples just now, but it seems that "Amasa Lyman" is the more familiar, informal name, which was used during his lifetime.  His full name seems to be used more often in an official and formal sense.  But, he is referred to as "Amasa Lyman" in the Doctrine and Covenants twice.  I would prefer to go with the more formal Amasa Mason Lyman as the title of the article, with Amasa M. Lyman and Amasa Lyman being redirects.  I'll see what I can come up with to try to resolve it either way. - Justin (Authalic) 22:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm open to either moving it to "Amasa Lyman" or back to "Amasa Mason Lyman". I think we have decided that "Amasa M. Lyman" is indeed inappropriate as that seems to only be used as a means of conforming his name with current LDS Church General Authority naming practices, and does not seem common then or now. - SESmith 22:50, 12 March 2007 (UTC)


 * Amasa Lyman has the most Google hits by far, and is the most common name in the literature. I think we should remove the middle initial consistent with general Wiki policy. There hasn't been discussion on this for about 2 years, but it seems like there is a rough consensus at least for changing it from "Amasa M. Lyman" to something else, so I'm going to make the change, and if anybody still wants to change it to "Amasa Mason Lyman" instead, we can discuss or change it again, based on the consensus. CO GDEN  01:01, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Controversial?
This will undoubtedly become an issue on other articles too, but the overarching problem is that the category is too vague. Anyways, I don't consider this a controversy (along with all of the other excommunicated bios I removed) because there was no apparent fallout: the individual was excommunicated, and that was that. There was no rioting, outbursts, legal issues, etc, especially in the cases where the one who was excommunicated later rejoins the Church.

If there were ramifications, they aren't cited. How is it a "controversy" when someone is excommunicated for acting contrary to their beliefs, no matter their religion? It's not like people are unaware of the policy. Lyman was an Apostle, but clearly his beliefs changed; it didn't lead to any issues within the Church that were cited in this article. As with articles in general, I think there needs to be a notability bar for what is a controversy, and many of these articles don't seem to meet it, including this one. MSJapan 19:51, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Number of plural wives
The article states he had 7 wives, but the chart shows eight wives. Does anybody know which it is? Epachamo 22:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * The article says he had "seven plural wives". A plural wife is one in addition to the first. 7 plural wives + 1st wife = 8 wives. –SESmith 02:48, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Amasa Mason Lyman Educational and Historical Society
The Amasa Mason Lyman Educational and Historical Society founded in the year 2000 by Clayson Lyman and Jay Lyman Bishop has sponsored two reunions that have been well attended. The first was held in Fillmore, Utah in July, 2003 and the second in Salt Lake City, Utah in 2008. The official family website can be joined by going to www.amasalyman.org. It is estimated that there are currently 40,000+ descendants of Amasa M. Lyman. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.110.200 (talk) 04:46, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

When did Lyman marry Diontha Walker?
The chart lists Lyman's marriage to Diontha Walker in 1843. However, in Lyman's autobiography ( http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/ALyman.html ), he does not mention this marriage in the section describing his life until 1844, and he even says that he hadn't learned the principles of celestial marriage until 1844. Do we have a real source on this alleged 1843 marriage, or is it perhaps a typo? 140.180.253.10 (talk) 22:39, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

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External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20071025084250/http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=%2FMStar&CISOPTR=8400&filename=8401.pdf to http://patriot.lib.byu.edu/cgi-bin/showfile.exe?CISOROOT=%2FMStar&CISOPTR=8400&filename=8401.pdf
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