Talk:Amway/Archive 6

/* Amway India (Andhra Pradesh and Kerala) */ an information about the upcoming regulation added
RIR, please stop removing properly sourced information. I have provided 3 reliable sources that support the added text about the upcoming regulation that put the previous information to the proper context. Hiding this information would make this paragraph biased and definitely not ballanced. The text was not tangential - it explicitely says that the new regulation will remove the ambiguity between direct selling and pyramid scheme in the law. Readers have to know that there is this ambiguity in order to understand the situation in India. --Historik75 (talk) 05:51, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The issue is not the sourcing, it's that the text added doesn't even mention Amway; it's a general statement about new guidelines (not binding laws) for MLM in general. It's out of context, having no connection with the rest of the details in that section regarding legal cases against Amway India. Now that it has been disputed on reasonable grounds and removed, kindly do not re-add it or edit war. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:18, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
 * A text mentioning the upcoming regulation of MLMs in India is not relevant for the paragraph about Amway cases in India that arose due to the absence of the regulation? Perhaps you do not consider Amway to be a MLM company? And if I am going to add the text again, I am immediately accused of edit warring? Okay, I re-worded the text to be more specific and added more sources. Hope this version will satisfy you.--Historik75 (talk) 10:55, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Illogical. Amway is an MLM but the sources in question are not specific to Amway, nor are these MLM guidelines relevant in the context of the history of pyramid scheme charges against the company in India. The refactored version was much worse than your first version, as it is WP:SYNTH. Anyhow, another editor reverted your most recent addition so we'll consider this case closed for now. Rhode Island Red (talk) 19:17, 19 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I asked the editor for his reaction. We will wait for his explanation. Anyway, I added another source and a text regarding the first arrests. It is backed up by a reliable source and I hope you will not remove it as it explicitly mentions Amway.--Historik75 (talk) 05:50, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Reverted. The reaction of the IDSA (a highly partisan source) to the arrest is inconsequential and the details added to the article were vague and misleading. The source says that Sachin Pilot was critical of the way the arrests were handled (not the charges themselves) and upon review by the Kerala Home Minister, it was determined that the arrests were executed correctly. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, you are wrong. It is well documented by reliable sources that Minister Sachin Pilot did not only criticize the way the arrests were handeled (this is a misleading statement). As another article stated:
 * "'While steps should be taken to crack down on fraudulent companies running dubious investment schemes, companies that are reputed and abiding by the law must be delineated,' the Minister said. Pilot's comments come against the backdrop of Amway's India Chairman William S Pinckney and two company Directors being arrested by the Kerala police earlier this week over allegations of fraud. They were later released on bail. Commenting on the Amway incident, he said that 'it is disappointing that such an eventuality came about. Such events (like Amway) might negatively affect the prospects of our country as an attractive investment destination'. 'While we take strong actions against ponzi schemes, we need to be careful not to create a vitiating atmosphere for reputed and law abiding companies,' Pilot said."
 * I wrote about it in my RfC several months ago, so you already should know it. It is clear that Mr. Pilot considers Amway to be a reputed and law abiding company and not a ponzi scheme. Your deletion was unjustified and I am readding the reworded version and adding the source.
 * To say that upon review by Kerala Home Minister it has been determined that the police was correct is misleading. It was not the Minister who said the police had been right, it was the above mentioned police officer. So the police said police was right. You should also know that the argument used by the police officer to "justify" the arrests was false. He said the court had decided Amway had violated the provisions of the Act. In fact, the court said: "if the allegations contained in the report of C.No.1474/C-27/CiD/2006 dated 24-9-2006 are taken on their face value they make out an offence punishable under the provisions of Sections 4, 5 and 6 of the Act." In August, 2007 the Indian Supreme Court ordered the Police to complete their investigation within 6 months, so the case could proceed. As of today, no progress has been made, so no - no court has ever decided Amway violated the provisions of the Act.
 * I regret to say it, but you apparently are involved in negative POV pushing again, trying to hold back important information from the reader and misleading them with your non-balanced statements.--Historik75 (talk) 14:31, 21 August 2016 (UTC)
 * The arrests were not "criticised by several business and industry organisations"; they were criticized by the IDSA, which is a partisan lobbying organization that acts on behalf of MLM companies and represents Amway's business interests in India, and which, incidentally, Pinckney was formerly the head of. As for Pilot, he has no jurisdiction in the matter and the alleged concerns he raised about the manner of the arrest were dismissed. Your edit has been reverted. Please Stop adding such lopsided nonsense to the article. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:07, 22 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Support Rhode Island Red's comments. I'd also add that the article already contains far too much un-encyclopedic advertorial - all of the eSpring section for a start. Richard Keatinge (talk) 11:08, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Agree about the advertorial cruft. I've tried to keep it from creeping in but it's been a never ending battle with the SPAs. Feel free to have a go at trimming if you like, or I'll take a crack at it when I get a chance. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:56, 23 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Would you please explain why do you agree with RIR? I have presented several sources for my edits, they all were relevant to the article, they provide all the details necessary to understand the situation in India. Yet you agree with RIR who is apparently blackwashing all the MLM companies. Why is the information about the reaction of the Minister irrelevant? The things that happened in India were clearly caused by the absence of legislation. We have discussed this in March here on the Talk page (see RfC). Now even two articles have confirmed this, other sources agree, Minister has apologized, etc... And you agree with RIR - can you explain why? --Historik75 (talk) 15:12, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * BTW: The sentence about the arrests that were "criticised by several business and industry organisations" is supported by a reliable source here .--Historik75 (talk) 15:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * This was already addressed, so why beat a dead horse. The source in question identified only two groups that were critical of the arrests: the IDSA (an MLM lobbying organization), of which Pinckney was former chairman, and Sanchin Pilot, who has no authority in the case. Regardless, the article indicates that the "concerns" about the arrest were unfounded. Sideline sniping from a partisan organizations or a grandstanding politician is not encyclopedic or worthy of inclusion. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:58, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Exactly. Historik75, you will probably be a lot happier if you spend some time editing subjects that you don't care so much about. Richard Keatinge (talk) 17:24, 24 August 2016 (UTC)
 * In other words you are recommending to edit only subjects I know nothing about? Why? Because there is one user who is involved in blackwashing?--Historik75 (talk) 06:22, 25 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Outsider observation, you seem to have a conflict of interest here and you are clearly not able to edit neutrally. I have provided you a COI notice, so please follow the mentioned steps. In the meantime, I suggest you move away from this article and contribute positively elsewhere. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 00:24, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Hi, I appreciate your advice. However, I have few questions for you: are you claiming that RIR's edits are neutral while mine are not? How is one supposed to improve the article that has been under negative POV pushing attack for several years? Imagine you have an article where certain paragraphs are interpreted only in negative way (this is done by the selection of what will be and won't be published on Wikipedia). Any time you add something for reader to have a complete picture (take the situation in India for instance) and back it up by reliable source, it gets reverted as whitewashing, irrelevant, vague, etc by the same user. So the solution is to move to other topics? Why? To be treated the same way elswhere? How is one supposed to be motivated to edit other articles when his/her first experience is with somebody who apparently took over the ownership of the article? --Historik75 (talk) 06:22, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Accusations of ownership are misplaced and missing the point. Just because another editor is active and disagrees with you doesn't make them an owner. COI editing is a problem in part because it makes it hard for editors to assess an article's neutrally. Many editors, some very gently, some not so gently, have been trying to guide you away from this article for good reason. It's time to listen to them. Grayfell (talk) 08:34, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Sorry, Historik75, but you really aren't "getting" the advice from myself and others. Nobody else agrees with your description of the problem. Everyone else thinks that you are adding comments that confuse the reader and should not be included in an encyclopedia. Also, they consistently distract from any coherent presentation of the Amway story, and they often do appear to be whitewashing based on unreliable / non-notable sources. For you, to continue editing this article is to condemn yourself to ongoing frustration. From my point of view, you are not likely to improve this encyclopedia by editing here, but you might make unrelated articles better. I and others suggest that you continue contributing elsewhere. Richard Keatinge (talk) 08:59, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Richard, I am really trying to get the advice. But why do you think that information about the upcoming regulation in India is confusing readers is really beyond me. Several reliable sources have provided an information that the Indian cases were clearly caused by the misuse of the Act. Now two sources say that the new regulation which will remove the ambiguity in the Act is coming. What's confusing about that? In my opinion it is more confusing to not let the readers know that the Act is outdated and that it will soon be updated. Unreliable sources? Pardon me, which exactly? Nobody else agrees with me? Perhaps you have not read the RfC above. Please, read it and then consider if nobody else agrees with me. How about User:Icerat, User:Collect or User:Plantium for example? The fact that some editors have given up is clear. In fact, it appears to be a part of RIR's, Grayfell's and Arthur Rubin's strategy to discourage editors who want to tell the whole truth. Do they have a conflict of interest? I don't know, but it seems to me they do. Another example: in the lead, there is a sentence saying: "Amway has been subject to investigation as a pyramid scheme." I wanted to provide a summary which basically said that the company was cleared of charges (FTC, UK cases). I was not allowed to. I asked "the trio" to provide one court decision that says Amway was a pyramid scheme. They provided nothing. But the sentence is still there without additional details. So who is to blame and what for? Me for whitewashing or they for blackwashing? That's a question to be answered first.--Historik75 (talk) 11:47, 25 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Historik -- putting aside for the moment your WP:COI and chronic pattern of lopsided disruptive editing, making unfounded accusations about various veteran editors (Grafyfell, Arthur Rubin, and myself) further undermines your tenuous position, as does claiming that you are supported by WP:SPA and suspected WP:SOCK accounts (i.e., Icerat and Platinum). The WP community is trying to guide you in the right direction. It’s time you listened. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:54, 25 August 2016 (UTC)

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Changing the opening paragraph on "Pyramid Selling."
Pyramid-selling is an illegal form of business which would not have been cleared of charges or approved by the FTC, thus, Amway is not a pyramid selling scheme. Although multi-level marketing does hold some description or value, network marketing would be a better term, for that is exactly what the company does- market through word of mouth. The company's business owners can make more revenue than the individuals before them, ruling Amway -not- a pyramid selling company.

Sources: Definition of Pyramid selling: Here is the actual page from the FTC itself. "In In re Amway Corp.,(19) another landmark decision from the 1970's, the FTC distinguished an illegal pyramid from a legitimate multilevel marketing program." (is distinguished from a pyramid selling company and is not identified as such). More: "Amway differed in several ways from pyramid schemes that the Commission had challenged. It did not charge an up-front "head hunting" or large investment fee from new recruits, nor did it promote "inventory loading" by requiring distributors to buy large volumes of nonreturnable inventory." The Better Business Bureau has provided another example here to differ the two. Here, the Michigan state government specifically differentiates Amway from a pyramid: "Multi-level" or "network" marketing is a form of business that uses independent representatives to sell products or services to family, friends, and acquaintances. A representative earns commissions from retail sales he or she makes, and also from retail sales made by other people that he or she recruits. Examples of well-known multi-level marketing companies include Amway and Mary Kay Cosmetics." Here, Amway is rated A+ by the Better Business Bureau who has clarified the difference between MLM and pyramids. It would not make sense to say that Amway is multi-level marketing OR a pyramid selling company because these two are very different from each other. This is like saying a jaguar is a feline or a canine. It cannot be both for obvious reasons, the jaguar is not a canine- it can be considered a big cat or a feline, but not a canine. An entity or being cannot be both.

The same is the case with Amway, choose one, based on the sources from the Better Business Bureau, state governments, and the FTC itself. Did these government and business rating sources deem Amway as a pyramid-selling company or a MLM company? Thoughts?RaylinaLee (talk) 04:39, 28 April 2017 (UTC)Raylina Lee


 * For definitions of the terms, see https://web-beta.archive.org/web/20161230021944/http://www.businesslyceum.com/mlm.html Tgeorgescu (talk) 04:44, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
 * "Pyramid selling" is a primary synonym of MLM, as you will see from definition of multi-level marketing. Your removal of this term from the lead has been reverted. Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:35, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

^ Thank you Tgeorgescu. Agreed, although MLM is often not a good route to produce income as stated in the above link, there is a difference from an actual pyramid. Having the correct term (MLM) is crucial for a neutral and informative perspective for the audience.RaylinaLee (talk) 05:31, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2018
Amway is not a Multi-level Marketing company. It's into Network Marketing/Distribution Industry. Please correct it. Multi-level Marketing and Network Marketing are two completely different. Contactavishek (talk) 11:11, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Incorrect. Network marketing is simply a lesser used synonym of MLM, and Amway has most certainly been characterized as an MLM by multiple reliable independent sources. The fact is indisputable; thus, there is likely a zero percent chance of whitewashing the article as suggested. Rhode Island Red (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2018 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Danski454 (talk) 18:27, 29 September 2018 (UTC)

Copyvio

 * Published on Nov 13, 2017 so all text before such date should be OK, maybe it is not Wikipedia which has plagiarized, but the other way around. It's plagiarism, I'll grant you that, but it is not plagiarism by Wikipedia, see e.g., which includes Amway distributors, referred to as "independent business owners" (IBOs), may market products directly to potential customers and may also sponsor and mentor other people to become IBOs. IBOs may earn income both from the retail markup on any products they sell personally, plus a performance, which is now marked in red in the copyvio report. I rest my case. https://www.slideshare.net/Mayanksng07/consumer-awareness-towards-amway includes big chunks of text copy/pasted from Wikipedia. Mayanksng07 is the plagiarist. In 2016, the quoted text was still there at . In 2015, also, at . The PowerPoint is not that old, since it quotes stats from 2016: Amway was ranked No. 29 among the largest privately held companies in the United States by Forbes in 2015 based on revenue, and No. 1 among multi-level marketing companies by Direct Selling News in 2016. Tgeorgescu (talk) 11:36, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I defer to your judgement! No objections here. I just saw the report and realized it needed a more experienced eye so I flagged it. Thanks for taking a look! -- Zack mann  (Talk to me/What I been doing) 17:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Requesting changes to the article
I am requesting for updating the information and adding more content along with references for verification. All new URLs are given with the content which support my changes

Change 1

Change the third sentence in the lead paragraph

From: Amway and its sister companies under Alticor reported sales of $8.8 billion in 2018.

To: Amway reported a consolidated sales of $8.8 billion in 2018.

Change 2

Change the last line of the lead paragraph From: Amway has been investigated in various countries and by institutions such as the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) for alleged pyramid scheme practices.

To: Amway has been investigated for alleged pyramid scheme practices by Federal Trade Commission (FTC), but the commission’s 1979 ruling found that the company’s direct selling practices did not constitute a pyramid scheme.

Change 3

Add the following paragraph in the 'International expansion' sub-section


 * As of 2019, the company operates in more than 100 countries and territories around the world. It appointed the first non-family global CEO, Milind Pant in the same year and celebrated its 60th anniversary at Las Vegas, Nevada.

Change 4

Add a sub-section named 'Research and Development' in the 'History' section and add the following content:

Research and Development' 


 * Amway is committed to plant nutrients and microbiome R & D. The company has registered more than 800 international patents. It opened the Amway Botanical Research Center (ABRC) in China in 2015, to research on the Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and its benefits for health and skin care. It also published Amway’s Microbiome Initiative research to understand the microbiome along with its effects on consumer health, wellness and skin care.

Change 5

Change the first paragraph of 'Global markets' section

From: According to the Amway website, the company operates in over 100 countries and territories, organized into regional markets: the Americas, Europe, greater China, Japan and Korea, and SE Asia/Australia. Amway's top ten markets are China, Korea, the United States, Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, India, Russia, Malaysia and Italy.

To: According to the Amway website, the company operates in the Americas, Europe, greater China, Japan and Korea, and SE Asia/Australia. Amway’s top ten markets are China, Korea, the United States, Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, India, Russia, Malaysia and Italy.

Change 6

Add the following line at the end of the 'Nutrilite' sub-section
 * The brand‘s health institute co-authored a report on Phytonutrient Intakes, providing an examination, availability and impact of global fruit and vegetable intake.

Change 7

Remove the 'Ditto Delivery' section from this page and move it on the main page of Amway North America.

Change 8

Add a section on 'Corporate Citizenship' after 'Commercial Sponsorships' section and add the following content:
 * Amway is inclined towards the welfare of children. The company has initiated the Power of 5 campaign to create awareness about childhood malnutrition. It also started the the One-by-One campaign in 2003 to impact children's lives worldwide by providing nutrition, supporting welfare centers, building homes for families, healthcare and education.

Change 9

Remove the 'Dateline NBC' sub-section from this page and move it on the main page of Amway North America.

Thank you.

GoMetroGo (talk) 15:41, 11 February 2020 (UTC)


 * At least some of the proposed edits strike me as inappropriate WP:PROMO and whitewashy (e.g., #2, 4, 6, and 9) and should not be made. For instance regarding the pyramid scheme angle, there were several examples (and sources cited in support) of Amway being investigated as or determined to be a pyramid scheme that came after the FTC ruling in the 70s, so the proposed edit for that would be grossly misleading. Rhode Island Red (talk) 20:49, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Reply 11-FEB-2020

 * Reasons for the changes being made were not provided by the COI editor with their request.

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2020
Please remove

alleged pyramid scheme practices, however, never found guilty.

and add

alleged pyramid scheme practices, but it has never been found guilty.

The current version just isn't grammatical. 2601:5C6:8081:35C0:2C8A:AB39:C6BE:2DEB (talk) 20:37, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done Good suggestion. RudolfRed (talk) 22:58, 15 November 2020 (UTC)

Requesting Change (Logo)
Amway has a new logo and the current one on Wikipedia is outdated.

Please see this page for the new logo. Please see Amway's new design guidelines.

Consti (talk) 01:57, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

Requesting changes to the article with additional explanation
Change 1

Change the third sentence in the lead paragraph

From: Amway and its sister companies under Alticor reported sales of $8.8 billion in 2018.

To: Amway reported a consolidated sales of $8.8 billion in 2018.

Explanation: The sales numbers belong to Amway and its consolidated companies, so mentioning only one company’s name would be misleading.

Change 2

Add the following paragraph in the 'International expansion' sub-section


 * As of 2019, the company operates in more than 100 countries and territories around the world. It appointed the first non-family global CEO, Milind Pant in the same year and celebrated its 60th anniversary at Las Vegas, Nevada.

Explanation: Updating information per latest news of company announcements and events.

Change 3

Add a sub-section named 'Research and Development' in the 'History' section and add the following content:

Research and Development' 


 * Amway is committed to plant nutrients and microbiome R & D. The company has registered more than 800 international patents. It opened the Amway Botanical Research Center (ABRC) in China in 2015, to research on the Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM) and its benefits for health and skin care. It also published Amway’s Microbiome Initiative research to understand the microbiome along with its effects on consumer health, wellness and skin care.

Explanation: Adding information of company R&D practices with appropriate references as covered by third-party sources.

Change 4

Change the first paragraph of 'Global markets' section

From: According to the Amway website, the company operates in over 100 countries and territories, organized into regional markets: the Americas, Europe, greater China, Japan and Korea, and SE Asia/Australia. Amway's top ten markets are China, Korea, the United States, Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, India, Russia, Malaysia and Italy.

To: According to the Amway website, the company operates in the Americas, Europe, greater China, Japan and Korea, and SE Asia/Australia. Amway’s top ten markets are China, Korea, the United States, Japan, Thailand, Taiwan, India, Russia, Malaysia and Italy.

Explanation: The information '100 countries and territories' is requested to move up in the proposed 'International expansion' sub-section, so requesting to remove it from here to avoid redundancies.

Change 5

Add the following line at the end of the 'Nutrilite' sub-section
 * The brand‘s health institute co-authored a report on Phytonutrient Intakes, providing an examination, availability and impact of global fruit and vegetable intake.

Explanation: Updating information per latest research report.

Change 6

Remove the 'Ditto Delivery' section from this page and move it on the main page of Amway North America.

Explanation: The concept - Ditto Delivery - pertains to Quixtar (Amway North America) which has its own page and hence the information is requested to be moved there.

Change 7

Add a section on 'Corporate Citizenship' after 'Commercial Sponsorships' section and add the following content:
 * Amway is inclined towards the welfare of children. The company has initiated the Power of 5 campaign to create awareness about childhood malnutrition. It also started the the One-by-One campaign in 2003 to impact children's lives worldwide by providing nutrition, supporting welfare centers, building homes for families, healthcare and education.

Explanation: Adding information about company community service with appropriate references and third-party sources.

Change 8

Remove the 'Dateline NBC' sub-section from this page and move it on the main page of Amway North America.

Explanation: The controversy of Dateline NBC pertains to Quixtar (Amway North America), which has its own page and hence the information is requested to be moved there.

Thank you.

GoMetroGo (talk) 15:16, 25 February 2020 (UTC)


 * #3 and #7 are WP:PROMO; #4 seems like excessive detail bordering on trivia; #5 is trivial and based on WP:PRIMARY; #6 and #8 don’t need to be moved (as they are relevant here as well) but can be added to the other pages mentioned. Rhode Island Red (talk) 15:49, 25 February 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: I have moved the Connected contributor (paid) tag, initially placed under this section, to the header of the talk page. This template needs to survive discussion archivals. MarioGom (talk) 10:49, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Welcome to Life (Poland)
The Polish title is spelt Witajcie w zyciu. It should be spelt Witajcie w życiu (with ż), as can be seen in the sources. 195.187.108.4 (talk) 18:02, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

Parts read like ad copy
This article is hyper biased in Amway's favor. The business model section is half dedicated to an Amway funded puff piece about them being "the most profitable" but never points out where that money comes from or how many of the individuals lose money. James (talk) 14:32, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Stale References
Some references ("Forbes' The 100 Most Powerful Women; No.88 Eva Cheng". Forbes. August 27, 2008. Retrieved July 9, 2011.) are stale - this Forbes page is long gone. Needs to point to, for example, the internet archive.

76.219.79.2 (talk) 22:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Here is a list of stale references:

• #8: "Pyramid Schemes". Federal Trade Commission. May 13, 1998. Retrieved July 19, 2015. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Etleyden (talk • contribs) 15:58, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 April 2022
"You have wrote when and when amway got banned or ceased or had lawsuit But you should also write how they came over it How the case got resolved telling half truth only makes people misjudge things. The reasons how it is still in the market after so many years of law changes and also -the fact of this 2022 ceasing that it is an investigation of 2011 which is happening after 11 years" Grajput14 (talk) 05:02, 19 April 2022 (UTC)
 * Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 05:16, 19 April 2022 (UTC)

For All Amway Products Information in English Visit: https://amwaylist.com/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.73.214.161 (talk) 10:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC)