Talk:Angelina of Serbia

Montenegro and Albania were invaded centuries before they were established and Lady Angelina and Brankovic fled to Italy by time travel machine?
"Both Lady Angelina and Branković fled to Albania and then to Italy when both Montenegro and Albania were invaded by the Ottoman Empire"

text is describing events from 15th century. Albania was founded at the beggining of 20th century and Montenegro 1878. Italy was established in 1861.

I propose to change above mentioned text in order not to mislead readers to believe that Italy, Albania and Montenegro existed in 15th century.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2010 (UTC)


 * They both existed in the 15th century and way prior. Albania and the Albanians have been mentioned in written and preserved documents in the 11th century, Montenegro in the 13th century. There is no risk of confusion for who clicks on wikified links. --  S ulmues (talk) 02:19, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * No, it didn't existed by that name. You must bring sources for that, or i will remove information. Montenegro and Italy yes, but there was no Albania back then. -- WhiteWriter speaks 09:29, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

If you Sulmues meant Italy, Montenegro and Albania geographically not politically, then you are again wrong. The fact that Albania, Italia and Montenegro were mentioned in historical documents in medieval times as name for geographical territory does not have anything to do with the fact that it is completely wrong to use those names in the article that describes this medieval events. Those names today not necessarily mean the same as in medieval documents. On the contrary. Both Italia and Montenegro today are much different than geographical means of Italia and Montenegro in medieval documents. Montenegro i.e. more than doubled its territory in the meantime. What is maybe most important, it is completely wrong to write that Montenegro or Albania were invaded by Ottoman Empire (not only because of the fact that geographically both Albania and Montenegro today are much different than geographical Albania and Montenegro in medieval documents) because Ottomans did not invade territory of todays (or medieval) Montenegro or Albania. Significant and most important parts (port Kotor and its bay and Durres with its surrounding) of todays and especially medieval Montenegrin and Albanian coast belonged to Venice for centuries after the death of Lady Angelina and Branković. Ottomans actually conquered territories of several medieval principalities that existed in medieval times in region of todays or medieval geographical regions Montenegro and Albania. Insisting on connection between medieval principalities or medieval names for geographical regions and todays geographical names of regions or existing states in the Balkan is wrong and can mislead readers.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 10:41, 11 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Take your arguments to Robert Elsie, and please don't argue with me. I am carefully respecting the source, whereas you are doing original research. This was already sourced and you removed it twice. page 9 is very clear. Whitewriter please revert yourself as these reverts, which don't respect sources are considered disruptive. We can stay here all day and discuss whether Montenegro, Albania and Italy existed in the 15th century or not. Problem is, Elsie says it very clearly. --  S ulmues (talk) 13:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Sulmues, there is no need for creating the conflict about this matter. If Elsie used those names in his texts it does not mean you are obliged to use the same term. You can find many sources that African-Americans are Negroes but it is term that should not be used in articles on encyclopedia. It would be better to improve text of the article instead of making conflict out of something that is completely obvious. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * This is clear as day. Sulmues is welcome to propose new sentence here, and if it is as good as Antidiskriminator's one, it will be inserted in article. Blind reverts will not be tolerated, any more. And you are aware very much that is elsie told us something, that cannot be good enough to stand alone in wikipedia, as we don't write here Elsiepedia... This encyclopedia have rules of their own, that needs to be respected. -- WhiteWriter speaks 15:21, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Made an edit so that we can both have the source and also define areas as "regions". --  S ulmues (talk) 16:12, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Both Lady Angelina and Branković fled to Albania and then to Italy when the regions of present day Montenegro and Albania were invaded by the Ottoman Empire." Your edit, Sulmues, is school example of vandalism. This is not first time you are doing things like this. We clearly stated that using todays geographical names of regions, or existing states, for medieval principalities is wrong and can mislead readers. Instead of avoiding using todays geographical names of regions you stressed that they are regions of present day Montenegro and Albania. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 18:11, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

That's not vandalism, that's respecting the source. You might be smarter than Elsie or Einstein, no body is preventing you from publishing under your own name articles that debunk their theories. In Wikipedia we should be as close as possible to sources and here we edit under nicknames trying to be honest in our edits. What if I use the territories of the League of Lezhe and Serbian Despotate? Would you be ok with that? That's what Elsie means anyways.--  S ulmues (talk) 18:24, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok made reconciling edit. --  S ulmues (talk) 20:28, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

I am sure that now it is better than before, but not sure if it is absolutely correct (despite the fact that I proposed it). Serbian Despotovina officially ceased to exist after 1459. and Ottoman conquest, but Vuk Grgurević was soon granted with title of despot (in exile, ok, but still despot) and gained control of almost all Syrmia within Kingdom of Hungary. There are sources that also name this territory as Serbian Despotovina, despite it was province that was part of Kingdom of Hungary, because it was ruled by despot who is Serbian, territory was mainly populated by Serbs and intentionally stimulating Serbs from Ottoman empire to settle there, free of tax, for making military frontier against Ottomans. There is no article about this despotovina, but I think that if Elsie wrote that: "In 1485, at the death of her husband, Angelina went to Serbia where her son had become a despot," he could only mean this Serbian Despotovina within Kingdom of Hungary which need separate article. I will try to learn more about it.--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:00, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Syrmia in Serbia in 1485

 * "In 1485, at the death of her husband, Angelina went to Serbia where her son had become a despot, and retired in the Krušedol monastery, in the Fruška Gora mountain, Syrmia, Serbia, where she died in the beginning of the 16th century.["

Serbia also did not exist in 1485. Even if you meant Serbian Despotate, it ceased to exist 26 years before 1485. As geographical region Serbia also have different meanings even now, not to mention medieval meanings. Syrmia was at the time of her death part of Kingdom of Hungary not Serbia, or Serbian Despotate. I propose to change above mentioned text to be like this: "In 1485, at the death of her husband, Angelina went to Kingdom of Hungary where her son had become a titular despot, in exile, of Serbian Despotate which territory after its collapse was under control of Ottoman Empire. Later, she retired in the Krušedol monastery, in the Fruška Gora mountain, Syrmia, where she died in the beginning of the 16th century."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 13:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * ✅ -- WhiteWriter speaks 15:14, 11 October 2010 (UTC)