Talk:Anime/Archive 5

Hentai
I removed the subgenre references for Hentai under the Genres heading. They seemed unnecessary and detracted from the validity of the article in my opinion. If someone is interested in the specifics of Hentai, they can read its article. Xym 00:56, 30 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Great! DenisMoskowitz 04:22, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Good idea! Darkstar949 18:57, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * But i love H-anime:P &gt;x&lt;ino 10:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I want to add "This article has been cited as a source " at the top of the page, but I can't figure out how. The relevant info is here: Wikipedia_as_a_source and at Dangers of Hentai Fact Sheet If someone can tell me, or make the change themselves, that would be great. (The NCECC (aka RCMP) really botched their "fact sheet" up and I think users would be interested.)None Error 07:30, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about Template:Onlinesource2006? That's as close as you're going to get to what you're talking about. - Squilibob 08:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It may be a good idea not to remove talk from the talk page. I know that your question was resolved but it should stay here to be archived so that if someone has the same question again, they won't have to ask it. If you realy want to, you could just use and to remove your own talk text if you feel it is no longer current. - Squilibob 00:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
 * why not leave Hentai in the subcats ? thats what it is, and it deserves respect, because of the way people use and have used it to get around censorship in japan.Karaveks voice 19:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

It's all about Hentai:P
 * &gt;x&lt;ino 20:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Spelling
Wikipedia cannot, under WP:NPOV, dicate what is correct or not; it only reports what others believe. Moreover, in English, there is no academy to set right and wrong; the only way to tell right from wrong is what is used and what is generally considered correct. From a prescriptionist perspective, I'm always pro-nativizing; we shouldn't spell something one way just because another language does. Unlike an NEEM, I'm not going to accept a flat claim that animé is not considered correct; I've seen it too often for that.--Prosfilaes 20:02, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, that's fine. But I've never seen anyone who actually watches and enjoys anime spell it "animé."  So, while you may have seen that spelling 'often,' I'm willing to bet that you haven't seen it spelled that way by anyone actually knowledgeable about the subject.  Additionally, it should be noted that "animé" has a different definition than "anime" according to most dictionaries and 'animation' is not listed as a definition under the "é" spelling.  --Xaliqen 00:34, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * My post was specifically about one editor's changes, who kept changing "anime is sometimes spelled as animé in English" to "anime is sometimes spelled incorrectly as animé in English" and kept adding the sentence "However anime is spelled "anime" in Japanese roomaji and has already been romanized therefore the correct spelling in English is always "anime" (singular or plural) even though this does not give additional information to it's [sic] pronunciation in English." I'm not against improvement of this section, as long as it stays prescriptive, but I do think absolutes are dangerous; note User:Egan Loo's edit comment that "The accented é was used in The Berkeley Journal of Japanese Animation (1990), one of the first English books written on the subject", and it took me about a minute to find a couple fan pages that used animé (use Yahoo Search, as Google folds the é.) I don't know about dictionaries; www.dict.org has no relevant definitions for anime and none at all for animé, and I don't think any of my hardcopy dictionaries are very up-to-date. (And I can no longer check the online OED, which is frustrating.) Let's talk evidence and specifics as much as we can, and hopefully we can improve what we have.--Prosfilaes 07:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It is hard to reference this journal, If anyone has found relevant link to it, please use it as a reference.
 * On another note, the "spelling" section doesn't seem to be about spelling anymore. It is still explaining "Pronounciation" so I'm removing that section title. - Squilibob 10:56, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Just mention the journal; there's no need to have a weblink for every reference.--Prosfilaes 14:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * "kept?" I think you are misstating things. I am the guy who added that section. Then you reverted it once, and I re-reverted it once, then you changed it back. Now that section is gone as someone else noticed that without my changes that section was not even about spelling. While hardly authoritative on the subject, you really should have read the wikipedia entries on romanized roomaji transliteration and Latin orthography BEFORE you started making reverts based on your own understanding of what you felt should be correct. I'll go through your points one at a time to refute them:
 * 1. "Anime" is roomanji. That means it has been romanized according to Latin orthography. Or simply put, the word has ALREADY been converted into English! I really can't stress this enough... ROMANJI = ENGLISH SPELLING. That is the purpose of romanji. It would be improper to convert it again, because then all you are doing is adding slang! It's also incorrect to say that romanji is Japanese. Japanese is Japanese. Romanji is the conversion of Japanese to the latin alphabet. In other words it exists only to illustrate the correct spelling of English words!
 * 2. Prosfilaes wrote "there is one and only one thing that controls correct spelling in English; usage.)" Sorry but you are absolutely wrong. That is hardly the ONLY basis for the English language. That is one of MANY (and I stress many) factors that determine spelling, but historical use is far more important than phonological use. (see English_language)
 * 3. Anime was added to the English language by transliteration NOT by transcription which could have been used, BUT WAS NOT. Unlike for English, Japan DOES have an authoritative body to set language standards, (even ISO standards) for the conversion to other alphabets (orthography). They had the choice of HOW to romanize "anime" and they could have spelt it "animé" if they so desired (as they did with "Moé") but they didn't for very sensible reasons. The fact is, "anime" was how it was romanized... therefore (by definition) all other spellings are incorrect.
 * 4. "Anime" is a reborrowed loanword from English. As standard pratice, English doesn't use diacritics (accents) except in loanwords that orginally have them (and then not always). The orginal word the Japanese used ("animation") does not have accents and comes from English (regardless of where English got it from), so I guess that is the reason why it was set that way in roomanji. But whatever the reason it doesn't matter, that is the way it was set.
 * 5. "I'm not going to accept a flat claim that animé is not considered correct; I've seen it too often for that." So based on that logic, "teh" is an acceptable alternate spelling to "the" after all it has it's own wiki entry. (You even caught my incorrect use of "it's" and even though that's a frequent persistent mistake by many, that doesn't make "it's" correct.) There are lots of words that are spelt incorrectly, List_of_common_misspellings_in_English but lots of people over a long period of time for "grammer" to become acceptable "grammar". BTW: I've spelt "rōmaji" incorrectly many times above but I'm not claiming I care enough about a discussion entry to comb it over for spelling errors, I'm only making the claim that "animé" is always wrong under one of the few hard and clear rules regarding the English language.
 * 6. "Ä-ni-mé: The Berkeley Journal of Japanese Animation" was a fan mag that saw 2 issues before folding! I would not describe it as "one of the first English books written on the subject." Not a good source. Plus the direct quotes I found of articles spelt "anime" as "anime" while "Ä-ni-mé:" was only spelt that way because it was the title. (Regardless of how they spelt it, it doesn't mean they were correct... it was a fan mag!)
 * 7. How can you possibly justify "fan sites found with yahoo" as a source for proper spelling? "The Internet" is hardly a paragon of spelling.
 * 8. I agree that absolutes are dangerous *if it is an opinion.* Sometimes things are facts and are an absolute. For example, the earth revolves around the sun is a fact (regardless that some people claim that is an opinion). WP:NPOV is not relevant.None Error 20:08, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * (1) Transliteration is a tool to display Japanese (or other foreign words) without forcing people to know another script. A word transliterated into the Latin script is not an English word. Anime, in this case, is not a Japanese word; it is an English word. (2) Where the hell does historical use and phonological use come from? It's how people use the word. (3) Japanese spelling doesn't control English spelling, any more than French, Latin or Greek spelling controls how English words derived from those languages are spelt. (5) teh is wrong, because people don't use it believing it's the correct spelling. teh is wrong because there's a well understood standard. Likewise with the incorrect use of it's. There are no such hard and clear rules regarding the English langauge. The Internet may not be a paragon of spelling, but it's an example of usage.


 * (8) is a big one. Wikipedia doesn't decide facts; it reports opinion. Read WP:NPOV. Just as much to the point, spelling is all opinion; if tomorrow, every publisher in the US spelled the "teh" and continued to do so, that would be the correct spelling. Language is decided by the consensus of speakers and has no overtly objective reality.--Prosfilaes 20:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)


 * RE point 1 - Romaji is not English; to illustrate: "Personal Computer" is English. "Paasokon" or "Persocon" is romaji, neither are English. Shiroi Hane 02:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I tried to explain what Latin orthography was with references, but those references weren't being read, so had to I simplify. But you've given a great example... "Paasokon" or "Persocon" are the acceptable ways to spell those words. It's not "Pearsokon" nor any other weird spellings. If you want to spell the Japanese word for "Animation" in the English alphabet, you have to do it a certain way, and no other.


 * Good. I'm not spelling the Japanese word for Animation in the English alphabet. I'm spelling the English word for Japanese animation. I understand what Latin orthography is; but there's a difference between changing the orthography and changing the language.--Prosfilaes 18:04, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * "Anime" is to "Paasokon" as "Animation" is to "Personal Computer".
 * "Anime" is to "Tsunami" as "Animation" is to "Tidal Waves".
 * It's not "Animé" for the same reasons "Tsunami" is not spelt "Súnamee". (Nor does it suddenly become "Tidar Wavees" but that is the sort of crazy re-spelling I see everytime I see "Animé") None Error 06:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You would make sense but why would Tidal Waves become "tidar wavees"? I personally spell it Animé because that's how I say it (otherwise its spelt anime and I'm saying AHN-IHM).  Café is pronounced CAFF-EE because of the flick, had it not had the flick it would be CAAF.  Pokémon is POKE-EE-MON because of the flick and that doesn't conform because?  Oh wait, no it doesn't make sense.  If its spelt anime, I'm saying AHN-IHM.  If it was correctly spelt (in my eyes) with the flick then I would "correctly" pronounce. Thnom 13:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

"His right you know!"...that's right suker..he is right! But wait..if you do say Ani'me...how do you pronounce it then,... Don't make me flick your @ss:P
 * &gt;x&lt;ino 16:52, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * ...you what? Shiroi Hane 18:38, 28 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Don't worry if you don't understand &gt;x&lt;ino as most people here have trouble wrapping their brains around his/her posts. (^_^) --日本穣 08:23, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Laputa Robot image
I'm sure that someone would revert it if I went ahead and did it without discussion, but I think the Laputa robot image should be moved to the right side of the See Also section because it is most relevant to that section and in addition it fills the whitespace there. It has nothing to do with terminology where it is currently situated. Anyone agree? - Squilibob 11:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Well no one is arguing, so I've made the change - Squilibob 10:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Maintain template
According to the Template:Maintained there are five rules for this template one of which is this


 * DO NOT place this template on controversial articles that are easily subject to POV wars, unless you are a certifiable expert on the topic.

The certifiable expert part leads me to believe that the template should not be included, there are plenty of POV wars on Anime - Squilibob 00:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * You misunderstand the context. In controversial articles (which this section is not), someone is needed to maintain the integrity of the article who knows what they are talking about; such as political, scientific, or religious articles. Basically those that aren't limited to "INUYASHA ROCKS INCLUDE IT!" That said, under the first criteria, any type of problems this article encounters can be resolved effortlessly by those who are in the know. Eluchil  01:42, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

note
Just wanted to add you can find high quality anime at low prices Saturdays on Adult Swim. Carry on--AdultSwim 05:21, 7 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Please do not spam the Wiki. Eluchil  06:01, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre Issue
I have added a note to the page regarding the latest controversy regarding the "National Child Exploitation Coordination Centre" of Canada. They have conflated the concept of anime with hentai, and also conflated hentai with illegal/obscene acts. Most notably, they keep referencing how predators could use anime/hentai to "groom" children for said acts, and several other issues.

I am doing my best not to interject POV or insulting comments in this post, so please forgive the somewhat stiff form I have used. I have placed the note regarding this matter at the top of the page, just below the basic definition, in the hopes that readers of that NCECC report will come here and see it immediately, and hopefully realise that the report is incorrect at best. Also, it is a significant issue, and represents something that the anime community has faced for many years.

--142.110.227.98 15:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
 * It's not POV the way you have written it and it is good content, the paragraph is significant to genres so I have moved it into the genres section - Squilibob 10:24, 17 February 2006 (UTC)


 * However.. they seem to have removed it; the link is now 404 and it has also been removed from their list of fact sheets. It is still in Google's cache for the moment if anyone wants to save a copy for reference. Shiroi Hane 01:53, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Ah, there's an explanation in the forum thread for ANN's article on the subject, people emailed in to complain about the article and received the response "The Fact Sheet has been removed temporarily from the NCECC website so we can review to ensure proper use of the terminology. Sorry for any inconvenience or confusion". Shiroi Hane 04:13, 19 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And if anyone's still is interested, there's a followup article now on ANN . Shiroi Hane 01:24, 22 February 2006 (UTC)


 * And the NCECC put it back up keeping all the orginal content the same. They instead corrected the citations so that they included all the ones they used but didn't reference. (Yes the sort of behaviour that gets you kicked out of Universities world wide.)None Error 19:50, 25 February 2006 (UTC)


 * That was an error apparently, and although the page was back online briefly it wasn't linked from anywhere on the site. Shiroi Hane 18:31, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Anime vs. western movies
Western movies (even animated ones) seem to be fitted more into reality than anime. Both have their appeal in their archetypal idealism, but while western art tries to fit those dreams into current/prognosed reality, anime creates a world around these archetypes. Or to say it more practically: the worlds of anime do not make scientific sense. Anime helps you only to learn about yourself and your phantasies, it does not suggest ways to apply them to your life.

Take for example the multitude of romance stories in which the hero has unlimited success with females, where every woman or girl is cute - this would be called pulp fiction if it weren't japanese. James Bond is a secret agent against the forces of communism and meglomaniacs - he may be supersmart and superlucky, but Lupon in comparison is out of this world. He is in open machine gun fire range all the time and never gets hit, he does have little mission except looking cool. "Science" fiction movies include such things as people shooting slow-firing rifles in US-civil-war-like rows from massive howering spacecraft.

The innovativeness of anime lies not in the refitting of known appeal into a relevant setting, but to explore the appeal. Examples are: cute, cool, hot, massive, angry, evil/stupid, mysterious, philosophical. Very few animes break from this. Some are parodies on exactly these stereotypes, such as Excel saga. Others are movies in the western sense, such as Mononoke Hime. I think that things like the Otaku phenomenon are due to this surreality. Anime is a place where you are not bothered with the problems of the world.

&mdash;The preceding unsigned comment was added by Ados (talk &bull; contribs). 5 March 2006


 * That's some nice Original Research there. --maru (talk) contribs 03:30, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


 * Why are so many people trying to pit anime against everything, anyway? MasterGrazzt 07:58, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Manga
Regarding this line: "manga can refer to both animation and comics (although the use of manga to refer to animation is mostly restricted to non-fans)." I don't think the word "manga" refers to animations among "non-fans," at least in Japan. I think it's just that definition of manga as anime is not used that commonly among the young people in Japan. For example I know that my grandparents use that term "manga" to refer to anime on TV, but we as younger populations don't really use it. I know it's not really talking about how it's used in Japan but that part kinda caught me. I guess it's not the matter of being fans or not, but if you're the anime generaton or not. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.54.155.69 (talk • contribs).


 * It's becoming less common, but anime is still commonly referred to as "manga" by those in their mid-30s and older. Pom Poko indicates it is a "full color manga movie" in its full title, for example. --日本穣 22:29, 13 March 2006 (UTC)