Talk:Appam

Appam As Prasadam in Temples
Can anyone confirm this? I am a keralite & I have never seen appam as prasadam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by S pradeep (talk • contribs) 12:35, 25 May 2012 (UTC)

Merge
I think appam is distinct, maybe similar to the Hoppers. But Ive never seen Hoppers so cant say much here. However the many variants of Appam in South India qualify it for a separate article. --பராசக்தி 03:15, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Putu mayam
The string hopper bit overlaps with both putu mayam and idiyappam and should probably be shifted to the best name (idiyappam?). Jpatokal 07:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating
This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 17:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

"Hoppers"
Where does the term "hoppers" come from? Badagnani (talk) 22:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Do Indians call them "appam" or "hoppers"? Shouldn't this page use the terms that are used by the people who eat this food? Hanacy (talk) 06:05, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't have any reliable sources to quote here, so this can't go into the article, but, speaking from personal experience, the name "hoppers" mostly comes from Sri Lanka, while in South India they are called "Appams". If anyone shows me (in a reliable way) that the names are actually the other way around, I will gladly accept correction. UnbiasedBrigade (talk) 08:49, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

INRI/indri/pesaha appam
I added this to the list of variations. I'm not sure which name is the most correct, so I used all of them. Hanacy (talk) 06:03, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Origin
An IP is regularly vandalizing the article. K T Achaya only says that the dish is known in Tamil country in the first century. Please understand that Jews and Nasranis were present in the ancient Tamil country since first century and that is the reason for origin of Appam. K T Achaya also agrees to the same. Now stop reverting.PalakkappillyAchayan 18:28, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * In which book does K.T.Achaya agrees that Appam was created by Indian Jewish/Nasrani community? Could you please provide me with reference? Did you even read K.T.Achaya's Wikipedia page or the referenced content on Google books? Due to his reputation, posters for both Dosa and Idli have accepted his book for respective food history. I can also give you a link to Gil Mark's book on Google books (especially for Appam). I just do not see any mention about Jewish ORIGIN of Appam in there. In fact, he specifically says in the foreword/introduction that Jewish food is adapted from their locales/new homelands to suit Jewish dietary laws. I see no basis to use it as a reference to associate ORIGIN of Appam to any particular community. The adamant insistence on associating this food to one particular community is corrosive/insensitive/biased and definitely not Neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariaJeyaraj (talk • contribs) 19:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Gil Marks' "Encyclopedia of Jewish Food" mentions the ORIGIN of Appam simply as India. Similarly he also mentions the origins of food dishes like Hummus and Falafel as Egypt and Near East respectively. These are well known middle eastern dishes that have also been adapted by local Jewish communities. Besides, they are also quite popular in Israel as well. Still, look at their Wikipedia pages and see how neutral their representations are. Compare that and see how biased the efforts here are by few people trying to pin anything and everything associated with Appam to a small community by twisting facts.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 01:53, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I know that K T Achaya says that this dish is KNOWN in Tamil country in the first century. That is exactly the reason I provided the link under History section and not claim ORIGIN. Often in history there is no clear way of pinpointing origin to a particular time/person/community. It is often driven based on oldest available historical record such as stone carvings/literary work. Rice was domesticated in Far East Asia. It was either subsequently adapted or was domesticated separately in India by the time of Indus Valley civilization, much before Middle east. So, any rice based dish that was well established by 1st century AD (as told by K T Achaya) has more likelihood of having been originated in India. Moreover, when you claim outright ORIGIN to a particular community, where is the historical proof? (Gil Mark's book definitely IS NOT one). A book from a historian with corroborating historical evidence would be nice. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariaJeyaraj (talk • contribs) 20:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have also added comments to your talk page. I expect a meaningful reply here with proper reasoning around why you are so insistent on associating this food outright to Nasranis and what basis you have for that. Kindly realize that I am talking about Appam as a whole and not any particular variant. All my edits were very neutral and tried to faithfully categorize information around various sections. In fact, you have callously deleted valuable information that was added by folks by other region/country (Coorgi, Orissa, SriLanka and Burma etc.) and trying to saturate/monopolize this page with information that only relates and associates this food to one particular community (without much basis on facts).MariaJeyaraj (talk) 21:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
 * BTW, No where in the book of "Encyclopedia of Jewish Food" by Gil Marks has any reference of words Nasrani or Syrian Christian. Then why are you even using it as a reference for claiming Nasranis as originators of this food? I understand that some of the Jews from Kerala might have converted into Syrian Christians, but that doesn't in anyway make Jewish contribution to be Nasrani contribution as well!! It is not some sort of inheritance that automatically flows to the successor, definitely not when there is still a Jewish community around. Never mind the fact that Gil Marks' book DOES NOT even say/claim that Appam was of Jewish origin. Going by the same logic, can Christians from Kanyakumari simply claim that they built the Hindu temples there?MariaJeyaraj (talk) 02:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Appam - Type of food is incorrect
This article as of now states that Appam is a "fermented bread made with rice batter and coconut milk" and it adds that it "looks like a pancake". However, Pancake would be the most logical food type that can be associated it. It is made from batter, not dough and is poured and spread out on to a griddle or shallow pan. So, I suggest the main section be edited to categorize Appam as a Pancake instead of bread. I solicit replies and opinions on this proposed edit from folks that are watching this page. Thanks. MariaJeyaraj (talk) 06:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Appam - Information on Kallappam should be moved under Variations section from main text
Right now, information about a minor variant of Appam named "Kallappam" is shown under the main subject even though there is a dedicated section just for listing out the variants along with their description. So, I propose moving "Kallappam" related information from main section and placed under the "Variations" section to make the overall article more organized. I also intend to make a slight change in the description to include Malayalam as well as Tamil to associate the meaning for Toddy/Kallu in order to make this article neutral as per Wikipedia policies. As far as I know, Kallappam is a very minor variant (almost not a variant), which is more of a class based thing. While most of urban middle class and upper middle class folks treat Toddy/Kallu as taboo and will not add it to Appam batter to help with fermentation, working class folks have never had any qualms about it. People who make Appams commercially or on large scale also use it for consistent fermentation, but do not tend to disclose it. As Kallappam is already added to the article, I just want to move it under the variant section so that the information is not lost. Request questions, suggestions, comments and feedback on this proposed change from article watchers.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 16:13, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Rename "Origin" section to "History"
I propose renaming "Origin" section to "History". When it comes to food, often there is no clear way of pinpointing origin to a particular time/place/group/community/individual. It is mostly driven based on oldest available historical record such as stone carvings/remains/literary work etc. Article on "Idli" seems to have a "History" section instead of "Origin". I say we be consistent and do the same rename here as well. Moreover, it will also be less contentious and allows folks to add more proper/authentic citations down the line. Please share your suggestions. Thanks.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 21:32, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Added anglicized name for Appam.
Added the anglicized name "Hopper" for Appam, which is widely used in Sri Lanka, where Appam is a very popular food (in fact it seems to be more popular there than in India). — Preceding unsigned comment added by MariaJeyaraj (talk • contribs) 20:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Acchappam / Neyappam
Added new variant Accappam. Denoted it as signature Syrian Christian appams. Linked TOI article that attributes info to K.T.Achaya. Updated Neyappam to denote it as signature Syrian Christian appams as well. Added link to the same TOI article. These were lost in edit wars. Hope they survive the wrath of future vandals/edit ninjas. MariaJeyaraj (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

"Encyclopedia of Jewish foods" by Gil Marks - Used to cite wrong information
Giving below are my conclusions after going through this book on Google books. So, any statement in this article that is using this book as citation/reference to any "information" connected to Nasranis/Syrian Christians is factually incorrect and hence against the policy of Wikipedia (WP:RS - Content Matters - "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article.")MariaJeyaraj (talk) 21:40, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * This book of Gil Marks DOES NOT even say/claim that Appam was of Jewish origin. It simply mentions Origin of Appam as India.
 * In the foreword/introduction, he has mentioned that Jewish food could well have been adapted by Jews from their locales/new homelands to suit Jewish dietary laws.
 * NOWHERE in this book there is mention of "Saint Thomas Christians" or "Syrian Christians" or "Nasranis" (including the page devoted for Appam). Any extrapolation to link this book to those communities is simply an assumption.

More referenced books with no mention of "Appam"
Given below is a statement on Appam article:
 * "It is a staple diet and a cultural synonym of the Nasranis (also known as Saint Thomas Christians or Syrian Christians) of Kerala, India" 

There are number of citations included to support this claim. However, some of the books that are available on Google books just do not have any mention of word "Appam"
 * Title	- The Indian Christians of St Thomas - An Account of the Ancient Syrian Church of Malabar
 * Author	- Leslie Brown
 * Publisher	- Cambridge University Press, 1956
 * Google Books Link - http://books.google.com/books?id=H9gYAAAAIAAJ&q=appam#search_anchor
 * Original from the University of California
 * Digitized	- Jan 4, 2007
 * Length	- 315 pages


 * Title	- The Thomas Christians and Their Syriac Treasures
 * Author	- Placid J. Podipara
 * Publisher	- Prakasam, 1974
 * Google Books Link - http://books.google.com/books?id=4yQKAQAAIAAJ&q=appam#search_anchor
 * Original from the University of California
 * Digitized	- Feb 17, 2009
 * Length	- 91 pages


 * Title	- History of the Jews of Kerala
 * Authors	- S. S. Koder, Cochin Synagogue
 * Contributor	- Cochin Synagogue
 * Publisher	- Cochin [s.n.], 1974 ([Cochin : Chandralekha Printers]), 1974
 * Google Books Link - http://books.google.com/books?id=JqdtAAAAMAAJ&q=appam#search_anchor
 * Original from the University of Michigan
 * Digitized	Aug 27, 2008
 * Length	8 pages


 * The Travancore State Manual
 * Authors	- V. Nagam Aiya, Kerala (India)/Gazetteers Dept
 * Publisher	- Travancore Government Press, 1906 / Kerala Gazetteers Dept., 1999
 * Google Books Links - Vol 1, Vol 2, Vol 3

So, above book citations should be removed because they do not comply with Wikipedia citation rules (WP:RS - Context Matters - "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article.")MariaJeyaraj (talk) 02:19, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Citation quoted from The Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India:
 * ^ Thomas Puthiakunnel, (1973) "Jewish colonies of India paved the way for St. Thomas", The Saint Thomas Christian Encyclopedia of India, ed. George Menachery, Vol. II., Trichur.

As per the following link from www.asrani.net, Fr. Thomas Puthiakunnel's works were mostly around Jewish colonies of India. Citation too talks about the same.

www.nasrani.net - The ancient presence of Jews in Kerala?

Based on works of Fr. Thomas Puthiakunnel and the citation text, it looks like this citation was copied from some other article without proper review. Therefore, this too is irrelevant according to Wikipedia policy (WP:RS - Context Matters) and should be removed from this article.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 05:05, 19 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thomapedia is the Enlarged 2000 Edition of the 1973 2nd Volume of the St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India - both edited by Prof. George Menachery

As per the following index of this latest edition of this encyclopedia, there is only mention of Kinnanappam and Unniyappam vairants and no specific mention of Appam or Vellappam.

Thomapedia Index to Title Words and Contributors

http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/STCEI.htm

So, unless if somebody can quote specific phrase from this work regarding Appam, this work should also not be cited here as per Wikipedia policy (WP:RS - Context Matters).MariaJeyaraj (talk) 17:14, 23 August 2013 (UTC)


 * The St. Thomas Christian Encyclopaedia of India

Given below are the three volumes of this book. As mentioned above, Vol II (referred as Thomapedia in the new edition) is the most detailed and elaborate work on Saint Thomas Christians. If Appam is not mentioned in Vol II (Thomapedia), then the likelihood of it being mentioned (especially as it relates to the cultural life of St Thomas Christians) in other two volumes (Vol I and Vol III) is extremely low.

Source: http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/STCEI.htm Brochure: http://www.indianchristianity.com/html/Brochure.pdf


 * Volume I - Indian Christianity by Chronological Denominational Regional and Ecclesiatical Divisions plus South Asian Christianity
 * Volume II - Kerala. Apostle Thomas. Malabar / Syrian Christians
 * Volume III - India. Indian Religions. Indology. Indian Christian Theology. The Bible. Liturgy. Education. Congregations. Church Units. Institutions. Organizations. Indian Christian Directory.

So, now with the majority in this list of citations being proven as irrelevant for this article and the statement (mentioned at the beginning of this section), the onus is on the poster to provide exact information on where Appam is mentioned in other citations.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 17:36, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Appam - Main and History section
I added my comments to this Talk page about Gil Marks' "Encyclopedia of Jewish Foods" few days back. This book doesn't claim to be a historical source and all the information it has about origins have nothing to do with Appam being a Jewish food. In order for it to quoted under history, it has to have some relevant historical information showing Appam's antiquity as Jewish food or should have answers for questions such as "when" or "how long" etc. That is the reason why I want it added under "Other Information" section. Moreover, if people of every distinct caste/sub-caste/creed and religion want to add their own information, I feel it should be under "Other Information". Main section should only have the essential high level information and "History" should show only apt information of historical value.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 18:30, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
 * MariaJeyaraj, thank you for this detailed investigation! It didn't actually cross my mind that the added citations didn't support the statements made.—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 01:31, 16 September 2014 (UTC)

Appam - Main and History section (Dec'2014)
The names of Appam in other regions and languages is far more important than any community specific information that is still in the main section. Appam being very popular in Sri Lanka (like it is popular in Kerala and Tamil Nadu) is a fact that is covered in multiple international food/travel programs (like Anthony Bourdain) on the TV. So, reinstating it doesn't require any source backup either. Community specific information that is out there is NOT backed up by a neutral source either. So, I propose moving the regional information back to main section and revert it back to how it was. After all it was added by various people over long period of time and deserves its place upfront.

K.T.Achaya is a far more reputed historian for Indian food than any other on that list. So, his book that contains lot more information with further backup reference to ancient literature should be on top of the history list here.

"The Story of Our Food" was the last book published by K.T.Achaya. In that book under Chapter 8 and under "Tamil country", he clearly mentions that Appam was "well established" as per Perumpanaru around 1st century AD. He used the term "South India" early on in the chapter for referring back to information from Chapter 3. Even the wikipedia page on Perumpanaru mentions the period of work as as between 100 BCE and 100 CE. Perumpanaru is part of collection of literature works commonly referred as Tamil Sangam Literature. So, based on the this information Vir Sanghvi's book is wrong on both the reference to K.T.Achaya's book and the time line of Perumpanaru.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 03:18, 25 December 2014 (UTC)


 * "The Story of Our Food" does not mention about 1st century. And you are no person to say that Vir Sanghvi is wrong. Such comments cannot be taken here as he is one of the most popular Indain journalists. And regarding Perumpanuru, the exact date is not availabe. Several sources place it between 1st and 5th century. All my edits on history section are with elaborate and clear edit summaries. So there is no more clarification necessary I guess. I suppose you were the person who deleted several content in this page saying it was not sourced. I appreciate it. But now you are trying to claim that only your source is true and others are wrong which cannot be accepted. The wiki content is as per the given sources. Nothing more. Nothing less. Achayan (talk) 08:26, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * If Vir Sanghvi is referring back to K.T.Achaya as the sole SOURCE for his work and ends up with a completely different set of "facts", then he is of course WRONG!! It is not as if he did his own research! His statements are supposed to be completely based on K.T.Achaya's work and he can't even get the quotes right! Please let me know YOUR SOURCES (apart for Vir Shangvi) which show Perumpanuru is supposed to be from 5th century AD! Whatever I added to History section is FULLY and COMPLETELY backed up by K.T.Achaya's book. Whatever correction you made for K.T.Achaya's citation in History section was completely unnecessary and factually incorrect (He doesn't agree with GIL MARKS on anything. HE CLEARLY says "Tamil Country" and not "South India"). I DO NOT go around adding my imaginations and assumptions. It looks like you haven't even READ K.T.Achaya's book and as usual trying to bluff your way thru! Anyway, Given below is an exact clip from K.T.Achaya's "The Story of Our Food" book (page 79).


 * Even within the southern Tamil country there were quite marked differences in the food of different areas. This is beautifully shown in passage from the Perumpannuru written in the 1st century AD and describing the food that a wondering minstrel received at various places


 * Based on the above verbatim quote, the text I had in History section around K.T.Achaya's book was factually correct in every way without any assumptions whatsoever. So, I reserve the right to revert it back.I won't be touching Vir Sanghvi quote. Readers can quite figure out how wrong he is!! MariaJeyaraj (talk) 16:58, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Please read this book by historian Subhadra Sen Gupta where she mentions appam as a Kerala dish and mentions Perumpanuru is of the 5th century. The review of the book by The Hindu is here. And K. T. Achaya in his book The Story of Our Food uses the term South India much more than the term tamil country. Please read pages 77 and 78 also (since you mentioned only page 79) !!! So you do not have any right to revert my changes as my version is fully faithful to the sources than your corrupted version. The content will stay as it is. Achayan (talk) 08:40, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This new book has exactly the same "factoids" as Vir Shangvi's book. God knows who copied from whom! Both Vir Sanghvi's book and this book talk of Perumpanuru and Sagam Literature as two different things!! Perumpanuru is part of Sangam literature collection. The dumb thing is they have time line of Perumpanuru as 5 CE and Sangam Literature as 6CE!! Perumpanuru is considered a travel blog of chieftians and supposed to be the only place that has mentions about food in Tamil Sangam Literature. Experts in Tamil literature give a time line for all of Sangam Literature collection to be from 3BC to 3AD. This is where FACTS stand based on well peer reviewed studies by experts in ancient Tamil Literature. These two are nobodies when it comes to their expertise in Sangam Literature time lines. I mention this just to educate you on the topic. You are free to believe whatever you want.
 * However, regarding K.T.Achaya's "The Story of our Food" book, he mentions even different country names in pages before that! What has that got to do with anything about Appam?! The context is what matters. I just gave a verbatim snippet from Page 79 right where he first mentions Perumpanuru (including the time period and historic region, both of which were EXACTLY the same in my quote around K.T.Achaya book), followed by a translation of a verse from Perumpanuru, and then goes on to explain about the different types of foods mentioned in Perumpanuru, there by bringing them all in the same context and relating all those foods to the exact snippet I mentioned. Why don't you post the exact text from the book where he mentions about "South India" and also talks about Appam?!MariaJeyaraj (talk) 10:14, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "God knows who copied from whom!" Sorry to see such terrible arguments from your side. Please understand that majority of the sources are against your invalid claims. Since you are still creating problems for the article, here comes one more solid proof from my side: K. T. Achaya himself in his book Indian food: A Historical Companion states that Appam is mentioned in the Perumpanuru of about the 5th Century. Finally, its time to end this discussion here as I am not interested in anymore worthless arguments with you.Achayan (talk) 13:42, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * "The Story of our Food" published in 2000 was the last book published by K.T.Achaya before he died in 2002. The book that you quoted "Indian Food - An History Companion" was an old book (published in 1994). This proves that K.T.Achaya HIMSELF corrected the information in the last book he published! COMMON SENSE approach is always to go by the latest! The two authors (Vir Sanghvi and Sen Gupta) quoted and liberally plagiarized from dated material! So, I will change the text around citation for "The Story of our Food" book to reflect FACTUALLY and ACCURATELY what is there in the book!! As I have explained before I won't be touching the citation test for Vir Sanghvi. Readers can figure it out!MariaJeyaraj (talk) 16:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ha ha ha.. Please do not make others laugh. Your arguments are pathetic. The content will stay as such. Achayan (talk) 16:24, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Looks like you are running out of logic and material to objectively debate this any further! LOL! You can keep you citation reference for Vir Sanghvi and I will change the text around K.T.Achaya's book to reflect FACTUALLY and ACCURATELY what is there in the book. If you want we can escalate this to for mediation!MariaJeyaraj (talk) 16:39, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Point 1: The citation which you have given for your edit is the Page 80 of Achaya's The Story of Our Food (2000) which does not mention about first century.
 * Point 2: Achaya himself in his book Indian food: A Historical Companion clearly states that Appam is mentioned in the Perumpanuru of about the 5th Century.
 * Point 3: Your argument to consider the latest (2000) book does not stand as Vir Singhvi's book released in 2004 also says 5th century. He is one of the most an eminent Indian journalists. Apart from all these Subhadra Sen Gupta (2012) herself (without quoting Sanghvi or Achaya) also places Perumpanuru in the 5th century.
 * Point 4: Your argument that Achaya, Sanghvi and Gupta are all wrong and only you are correct cannot be accepted here. There are more sources with me regarding Perumpanuru. So you have no more options. Just stop your disruptive editings NOW. All your arguments are just lies. Achayan (talk) 07:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * 1) Citation leads to page that is publicly viewable! The information is spread across multiple pages. Wikipedia doesn't require you to quote only from electronic books that are fully open to the public. For example, all the citations used in the Page for Nasranis/Syrian Christian page are not electronic either.
 * 2) Like I mentioned "Indian food: A Historical Companion" was published in 1994, whereas story of our food is from 2000! Common sense requires taking the information from the latest book
 * 3) That is because Vir Sanghvi clearly sources his information from an old book!! Just because he doesn't know about the latest K.T.Achaya's book, doesn't mean a book doesn't exists. Subhadra Sen Gupta, by quoting the exact information like Vir Sanghvi, but not including the reference to K.T.Achaya book, just proves that he is a plagiarist.
 * 4) I said K.T.Achaya corrected the time line in his last book. He probably had the wrong information or went with the facts that he had on his hands at that time. Once again, it is better to take what is latest. Moreover, his new timeline also matches with Wikipedia pages dedicated for Tamil Sangam literature. If you doubt what is there in that Wikipedia page, then you are wasting your time here. For example, even in his last book he mentioned (as per facts available at that time) that rice was domesticated separately in India as well as China. However, in the recent years genetic studies have conclusively proven that all rice crops world over have the same Chinese wild ancestor. If he were to be alive and write a new book of course he will change that information too. However, I can't quote his book on the wikipedia page for rice and keep harping in BAD FAITH that rice was separately domesticated in India!! MariaJeyaraj (talk) 19:11, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

"Appam" as "staple diet" and "cultural synonym" of Nasranis
Given below is a statement on Appam article:
 * "It is a staple diet and a cultural synonym of the Nasranis (also known as Saint Thomas Christians or Syrian Christians) of Kerala, India" 

Above text is an awfully specific claim. There were a number of citations included to support this claim. However, most of the books that are available on Google books just do not have any mention of word "Appam" and therefore those citations were removed as per Wikipedia policy. As of now, the above text looks more like a self proclaimed title based on community folklore without any neutral citations to back it up. Lot of communities can claim such stuff for various food based on family/community folklore. Wikipedia is no place for such proclamations. So, I am marking the text as requiring valid citation.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 19:51, 4 January 2015 (UTC)


 * The timesofindia link mentions appam as a signature food of Syrian Christians. Hence the content will stay. Achayan (talk) 08:49, 6 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Quoted link is valid ONLY for two distinct variants Achchappm and Neyyappam. In fact they are so distinct, the only similarity they have with regular Pancake appam is name only. BTW, I was the one who added those variants and gave the links back in August 2013! In other words, that fact and citation are already mentioned in the article under the appropriate place. To extrapolate that on the whole Appam food by twisting the fact from being a "signature dish" to "staple food" and "cultural synonym" is disingenuous at the best and complete falsehood at the worst! My argument about the text sounding like a self-proclaimed title dubiously based ONLY on community legends and folklore still stands. Anyway, given below is the quote from the TOI article (verbatim).


 * Two other signature appams of the Syrian Christians, as food historian KT Achaya has pointed out, are the acch-appam, a deep fried rose cookie made with rice, and the nai-appam, also deep fried, which resembles a dark dough-nut.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 05:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * Two "OTHER" signature appams of the Syrian Christians. After mentioning about appam, it is mentioned that "two OTHER signature appams" which means apart from appam, achappam and naiyappam are also signature Syrian Christian foods. Please read it again and it will be crystal clear. The content will stay. Achayan (talk) 08:06, 7 January 2015 (UTC)


 * That is nothing but an ASSUMPTION on YOUR part, the article doesn't say that! You have to SHOW EXACTLY where in the article does it say plain Appam is a "signature dish" for Nasranis first (without any assumptions or extrapolations on your part). After that, you have to SHOW exactly why you chose to TWIST the FACT from "signature dish" to "staple food" and "cultural synonym". What you are doing is clearly against the policy of Wikipedia (WP:RS - Content Matters - "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article."). You DO KNOW the difference between the words ("signature dish" vs "staple food" vs "cultural synonym"), right? How about applying your lofty "principle" from previous post "Nothing more. Nothing less" here as well?! Given below is the verbatim clip from the TOI article (around Appam):
 * Take the best known dish - appam. Every community prepares it - and the accompaniments that go with it - in a distinctive way. The Syrian Christians bake it on a stone rather than in a clay griddle. They eat the appam with a meat stew unlike the Namboodris who prefer a stew of vegetables. 
 * EXACTLY WHERE DOES IT SAY in a "crystal clear" manner what you are claiming with that lofty proclamation!? In fact, it seems to convery the exact opposite with "every community" preparing in its own way. So, till you can come up with a neutral citation that backs up your claim (without leaps of imaginations/assumptions on your part), I am completely within the bounds of Wikipedia to revert FALSEHOODS.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 15:27, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
 * First of all, it is not me who has added that sentence. It is been in this article for several years. I support the claim just because I am very confident that it is true. Now, I have given two sources to prove the claim.
 * 1. Vijayan Kannampilly clearly states that Appam is a Kerala Christian food. He also states that in a Kerala Christian wedding the first course is Appam. He also testifies that Malayali Christians break their Christmas fast by eating Appam. Again for Christmas lunch, the starter is Appam.
 * 2. Martin Hughes, Sheema Mookherjee and Richard Delacy state that the classic combination of Syrian Christians, one of the oldest Christian sects in India, is Appam and stew. Again most Appam variants like Pesaha appam, kuzhal appam, vattayappam, achappam, neiyappam are signature Syrian Christian foods. These sources are more than enough to prove that Appam is a staple diet and cultural synonym of Kerala Syrian Christians. Closing this chapter here.Achayan (talk) 12:02, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * That claim has NOT been there for SEVERAL years! It was added in the middle of 2013 by "PalakkappillyAchayan". The same person who with a dubious and narrow minded agenda tried to associate anything and everything on Appam to Nasranis by twisting facts every which way at the cost of hard truths and other regional information.
 * You started this latest edits and cleanup with an "agenda" by deleting and changing other texts in the article by saying that they do not jive with the citations. Those texts have been there for a same amount of time as well! Therefore, I too am going with the same PRINCIPLE of yours and trying to make sure that everything in the article has the ACCURATE information as per citations.
 * I still do not see any of the new citations you have added, DIRECTLY and FULLY supporting Appam to be a "staple diet" and "cultural synonym" (whatever that means!) of Nasranis. Mind you, this is the same STANDARD you seem to be applying for other texts and citations. So, such claim being there WITHOUT a proper citation to FACTUALLY back up is clearly against the policy of Wikipedia (WP:RS - Content Matters - "Sources should directly support the information as it is presented in an article.")MariaJeyaraj (talk) 15:55, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Getting emotional is no solution. You came up with false claims and I exposed it. Now please do not come up with illogical arguments. If you know the meaning of staple diet, you would not have come up with such silly statements. It is possible to enlighten an ignoratnt person, but not a person acting ignorant. Achayan (talk) 16:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * LOL! What was my false claim you exposed?!! Confusing me with somebody else, are you? I HAVE never put my ASSUMPTIONS and EXTRAPOLATIONS in Wikipedia like how you justified this to begin with. In this case, I am just following the same "principle" you so espouse! You ARE the one that demanded the citations support the text fully and completely. You ARE the one splitting hairs with other texts and started the edits to change them. I am just going by the same "standard" here. Nothing more! Nothing Less!! MariaJeyaraj (talk) 16:33, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * BTW, why do you get so sensitive when I referred to "PalakkappillyAchayan"'s initial edits on this article as "dubious"?! Sockpuppeting much?! LOL!MariaJeyaraj (talk) 16:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Your edit summay says "All citations show Appam with a combination of beef stew". How stupid and misleading..!! First of all all citations do not say so. There are citations which clearly say Appam is a Kerala Christian dish. Secondly Appam is not cream biscuit to eat without curry. Nobody does so. Please stop your jokes here. Thirdly, it is evident from your disruptive editing that you are here for no productive discussion. No more citation tag required for such a heavily sourced content. Achayan (talk) 07:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Learn to READ properly and quote back correctly!! I said "Appam with a beef stew or a spicy seafood/chicken side dish", because that is what all of them have in common! It is clear from the first TOI article that you first used to justify this. It was your own reference! Let me quote that again to jog your selective memory with the verbatim clip from the TOI article (around Appam):
 * Take the best known dish - appam. Every community prepares it - and the accompaniments that go with it - in a distinctive way. The Syrian Christians bake it on a stone rather than in a clay griddle. They eat the appam with a meat stew unlike the Namboodris who prefer a stew of vegetables. 
 * This clearly shows that it is not just the Appam, but how it is consumed is what might be different bettween communities. Even in Tamil Nadu, Appam is mostly consumed only with regular spicy veg condiments and coconut milk, except for Chettinadu restaurants, which serve up Appam with meaty side dishes. Only one citation (a cook book), mentioned Appam being a Kerala Christian dish! Nothing exclusively about Nasranis anyway! Once again, NONE of these citations say anything substantially to justify the lofty proclamations like "staple diet" and "cultural synonym" (whatever that means!) that seem to spring mainly from community folklore. Wikipedia's purpose is higher. It is no place for such narrow minded community "factoids" and trivia.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 18:42, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

All the sources say that Appam is a traditional Kerala dish
All the references given in the article attribute Appam to the state of Kerala or Malayalis. For eg: in the book, Indian Food: A Historical Companion, K. T. Achaya clearly states that Appam is common to all Keralites and says nothing about the present Tamil Nadu or Sri Lanka. But when it comes to naiyappam, he specifically says it is also called athirasam in Tamil Nadu which implies appam has no place in the present Tamil Nadu. After going through all the given sources, it is obvious that Appam is a Kerala dish. But there is a possibility that it might have spread to the present Tamil Nadu or Sri Lanka due to their close proximity to Kerala. Hence modifying the introduction as per the references. Achayan (talk) 14:45, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * This is quite funny and twisted logic! K.T.Achaya as per his last book "Story of our Food" clearly states that Appam was WELL ESTABLISHED 2000 years back in ancient Tamil country! Even if it had to be based on the incorrect time line of 5th century AD, it pretty much predates anything else in recorded history!! Then why does it have to "SPREAD" back to Tamil Nadu from Kerala?! Tamilians forgot to Make Appam somehow in between? Just because Appam is more ubiquitous in present day Kerala doesn't mean it is not common food in Tamil Nadu households!! Tamil Chola kingdoms extended to Sri Lanka in 10th century. Tamils have been in Sri Lanka since then or even before that. That was probably the most likely way how Appam spread to Sri Lanka. To give you an example for you twisted logic, just because Pizza is more widespread and eaten often in the USA doesn't mean Italians have to LEARN it back from the US!! Another example would be Kerala Parotta, it is probably consumed way more than the North Indian Lachcha Paratha on which it is based. It definitely doesn't mean Malayalees have to "SPREAD" it back up North! MariaJeyaraj (talk) 20:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Believe it or not, Appam as Hoppers is way more popular in Sri Lanka than in Kerala, where it is served from upscale restaurants to roadside small tea stalls! It is in the list of 12 most popular Sri Lankan foods by CNN.Same CNN travel author also posted a personal video of him eating Sri Lankan Hoppers in a small road side stall. Anthony Bourdain's program on Sri Lanka covered it.MariaJeyaraj (talk) 21:26, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
 * Ancient Tamil Country is just another term for South India which covers the present day Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka and Andhra. K. T. Achaya clearly states that Appam is common to all Keralites (Part of South India or Tamil country in your words). K. T. Achaya has never stated that it is popular in present Tamil Nadu. Please do not mislead viewers by saying your "ancient tamil country" and present Tamil Nadu are the same. It will not stand here. And I did not delete Tamil Nadu or Sri Lanka. It was there and is still there. No need of any arguments here. Achayan (talk) 07:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
 * You are showing your LACK OF KNOWLEDGE here again!! Ancient Tamil country included all of Tamil Nadu and Kerala. However, it included only small southern parts of Karnataka and Andra Pradesh. So, your argument for South India serving as an equivalent term is moot. In fact it would be the wrong information as South India's borders are vastly different than Sangam period Tamil country. Moreover, Tamil Country is what K.T.Achaya mentioned in his book when talking about Perumpanuru and Appam! To make matters easier, I also made "ancient Tamil country" as a link to another Wikipedia page that showed more info about Tamil country around Sangam Period. Any body who can search for Wikipedia article would know enough to click the link and explore further. Once again, K.T.Achaya the eminent food history that you yourself have included so many times in the article, according to his last book of his lifetime, CLEARLY mentioned that Appam was WELL ESTABLISHED in Tamil Country 2000 years go!! Why would anybody need additional references to prove it is "common" again?! On the contrary, you have to prove that something catastrophic happened and Tamilians somehow stopped making Appams!!
 * It is YOU that is trying to ONCE AGAIN to monopolize and saturate the information on this page to favour one particular region and one particular community. Wikipedia is not the place for such narrow minded pursuits. ALL MY EDITS ARE NEUTRAL and FACTUAL including the term Tamil Country!! After all I mentioned it only under History Section with proper citation!! I did that because THAT IS THE FACT!!MariaJeyaraj (talk) 18:08, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Kerala was fully a part of Tamizhagam. Appam is famous in present day Kerala, which is a part of ancient Tamil country which had just one single language TAMIL. Hence Appam is obviously a Tamil cuisine. The word itself is of Tamil origin. Please read "History of Kerala" "Chera Dynasty" " History of Malayalam" to understand this. Jack Roshan (talk) 11:02, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Kabbadi is the national game of Bangladesh and many other northern states of India but it's origin is from Tamil country. Bharatanatyam is familiar all around India but it's origin was in Tamil nadu. Tamil has rich literature evidences which cannot be hidden. Jack Roshan (talk) 11:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Vague attempts by Tamil Jinkoists are craving to prove appam is a Tamil Nadu dish.One this is for real that appam is uncommon dish both in Tamil Nadu and Srilanka.The Concept of a Tamilagham itself us a Myth used by Tamil Chroniclers and Tamil Terrorist Organisations like LTTE.Tamilagham never existed and what they call Tamilagham was a number of principalities ruled by cheiftains and where Koduntamil was spoken.it is clear that Malayalam and the language called Modern Tamil is evolved from Koduntamil.The dishes and culture in western parts of Western Ghats are unique that the eastern part where what is now know as tamil nadu is claiming.The uniquness of Chera Land was never belong to Chola nadu or Pandiya nadu.Tamil Terrorists are now deliberatley attempt to tamilnadufication of every thing.Even the Fake idea if Kumari Kandam is propogated by these terrorists Skylark95choppen (talk) 13:48, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

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