Talk:Apulia

Opening comment
In ancient times northern Puglia was Daunia, Hellenized much later than the southern parts, Messapia and Peucetia. There should be some mention of these toponyms at least. --Wetman 09:22, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

Also, according to Allen Mandelbaum in the notes to his translation of Dante's Inferno, Apulia, in the Middle Ages&mdash;designated, not only the present-day region, but the whole of southern Italy. Paul August &#9742; 16:58, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

I have not followed this entire discussion, I confess, but I have traveled in Puglia, and I know for a fact that Italians call it Puglia, other tourists who have traveled in southern Italy know it as Puglia (see Virtual Tourist), people who live there say Puglia, there are four books on my desk (in English) with titles using "Puglia," tourist websites call it Puglia, and, finally, see the it.Wikipedia article on the regions of Italy and the one for Puglia, where it is clearly the OFFICIAL government designation of the region. The Puglia article begins by giving the name in other languages, including Apulia in Latin and English. Is it wiki policy always to use the English equivalent of a place name from a foreign language as the principal entry? That seems to me to be the only justification for keeping the present title, and, of course, I would bow to that policy, while, in this case, disagreeing with it. Littlereba (talk) 16:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Nobody, at least nobody who goes to Italy, ever calls the place 'Apulia'
It is called Puglia. Why is this article named after an archaic anglicism? A search for Leghorn rightly redirects to Livorno, and the same principle of common usage should be applied to Apulia/Puglia. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.67.47.90 (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

Apulia is simply the English name for Puglia, in the same way as Lombardy, Tuscany, Piedmont, Sardinia or Sicily. It is not an archaic anglicism. However, one may argue that neither under this toponym is the region well known abroad.Luca 16:54, 16 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree with the first comment, I have never heard of APUGLIA. Please direct me to an outside source verifying that APUGLIA is the english name for PUGLIA.  70.52.169.170 11:48, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
 * In English it is Apulia... simple. This is English Wikipedia, so there is no need to beat this point to death. The people/ language (dialects) are Apulian (not "pugliese/i"). It may be "fashionable" to call places by what the natives use; however, in most English mouths 'puglia" or "le puglie" is usually garbled and confusing. Leghorn is antiquated, Apulia is not. Mariokempes 20:23, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
 * OK, I take it back... a significant amount of English literature (including material in my private collection) does refer to it as "Puglia". The majority, however, calles it Apulia. The same references that call it Puglia conveniently avoid the descriptive (such as "Pugliesi"). In a nutshell, I would recommend maintaining a redirect from Puglia but keep it as Apulia/ Apulians in the text. Mariokempes 17:21, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Maybe the name Apulia should be placed in brackets after the proper name. I have lived in many parts of Italy in recent years since leaving the UK and never knew until reading this article of the name 'Apulia'.  I am familiar with Anglicised names for provinces like Tuscany and Sicily but never Apulia.  It would be like refering to Friuli-Venezia Giulia as Friuli-Literale or Emilia-Romagna as something more suitable for the English tongue.  The name seems to still be used nowadays but increasingly replaced with the Italian name Puglia just as we refer to provinces and regions in most countries by their native names (with the exception of the biggest cities like Paris, Warsaw, Rome, etc.).  Maybe some stupid Americans use this old name but those same Americans probably couldn't find Italy on a world map (and probably not even the USA) - this is an encyclopaedia and not a Dummies Guide for Americans.--217.203.153.152 (talk) 23:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I am Italian and have talked to a number of British people about the region, and cannot but confirm that they usually call it Apulia. However, they also generally refer to Mumbai as "Bombay" to Varanasi as "Benares", to Myanmar as "Burma" and, more often than not, to Beijing as "Peking", especially when talking about ducks. The issue here is far broader than Apulia/Puglia: it is about a consistent policy, which seems to be missing from Wikipedia's guidelines, of either chosing local or English geographical designations. It looks to me now that the choice is currently based on how touchy the natives are about the issue, which doesn't sound particularly encyclopedic to me. Complainer (talk) 08:42, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The choice is actually based on what is common use in English, as set out at Naming conventions (geographic names). There may well be a strong case for a move to Puglia, which is fairly common in English prose these days (Bern was moved from Berne because the consensus was that English use had changed over the years).  If someone feels strongly about it, why not try a change through the Requested Moves procedure?  Incidentally, it has been accepted that English use is now Lazio, not Latium.  Skinsmoke (talk) 08:43, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

A Quick Google search in English for items from the last year excluding Wikipedia shows the following: On Google books there is still a preference, searching over the last 10 years, for Apulia (39,900 to 27,900), but there is no doubt that both names are commonly used in English. From the web search it does indeed appear that usage has changed, particularly recently. On that basis I will propose a move at Requested moves and see what happens. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Puglia without Apulia 2,190,000 hits
 * Apulia without Puglia 333,000 hits
 * It's time that the name of this article was changed. Apuglia is really not used in modern day English in the same way that 'The Sudan' (for the country), Cracow (instead of Krakow) and Stettin (instead of Szczecin).  Check out this BBC article from today's news (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11938665).  Not the number of times 'Puglia' or 'Puglian' is used - 9 times and how many times 'Apuglia' is used - 0 times.  And there is no need in the BBC article for them to explain the name or anything like that which suggests that the term is commonly known.--85.94.113.121 (talk) 11:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus to change. May be relisted at a later time Jojhutton (talk) 16:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Apulia → — Common use in English has changed in recent years. While historically the region was known as Apulia, in more recent years the Italian version Puglia has become more common in English prose. A Google search excluding Wikipedia for items from the last year shows 2,190,000 hits for Puglia without Apulia; and just 333,000 hits for Apulia without Puglia. Undoubtedly, both names are in common use, but Puglia appears to be edging ahead. An archive search on Google News shows 161,000 hits for Puglia without Apulia; and just 5,400 for Apulia without Puglia. Google Books shows nothing published over the last year, but over the last two years a slight preference (approximately 170—120) for Apulia. Skinsmoke (talk) 02:50, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose. This purely Google approach is seriously flawed, see WP:GNUM. Two flaws not yet mentioned there are that Google's English filter is broken; many of these hits on Puglia alone are on text which is in, or is quoting, Italian; also, passages which use Apulia and mention Puglia once (as in "Apulia, It. Puglia) will be ignored. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:50, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment How can Septentrionalis's example show up when the search is for Puglia excluding Apulia?  Try looking at the search results.  Whilst I haven't checked all 2,900,000, I have checked the first few pages.  Not one example is in a language other than English, and not one example mentions Apulia.  Septentrionalis's assertion is a blatant untruth.  Google's advanced search facility is working fine, at least on Google UK.  For your help, here is the link to the results at:
 * http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=puglia&as_oq=&as_eq=wikipedia+apulia&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=y&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images
 * There are the occasional extraneous results, but the lead is so huge they hardly affect it (there will be extraneous results for Apulia as well). Skinsmoke (talk) 00:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. Google's language filter is 99% accurate even for language far more obscure than English, and the biases Septentrionalis mentions ("Puglia" being mentioned in an "Apulia" page) are, until the opposite is proven, to be assumed to be symmetrical. Google.dk, asking only for English pages, and excluding the word "wikipedia" gives a lead of 4,050,000 to 1,250,000 for the Italian form. Complainer (talk) 10:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment incidentally, WP:GNUM deals with how googling is a flawed way of assessing notability; search engines are, by their very nature, a much better instrument for assessing usage. Complainer (talk) 11:18, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose No way. Apulia is the good old term I'm used to. Never heard of any "Duke of Puglia". Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 19:12, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Neither have most of the English speaking people who travel to Puglia/Apulia each year.  They've not heard of any Duke of Apulia either, so how is that relevant to determining what the common term for the region is?  Worth noting though that Encyclopaedia Britannica has an article on two Dukes of Apulia, but has the article on the region at Puglia.  Skinsmoke (talk) 07:57, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
 * If anything, this should convince you to move the article: if you are referring to the mediaeval title, it was "Duke of Apulia and Calabria", where the term denotes most of Continental Southern Italy, not just the region. The (much) later title of "Duca delle Puglie" (notice the plural), which is vastly ceremonial, likewise indicates a much broader area than the region we are talking about in this article.Complainer (talk) 07:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:UE. Google Hits are weak for this kind of thing, producing numerous auto-generated adverts for property sales, &c.  (cf. these "English" results for Firenze).  —   AjaxSmack   02:00, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * So what? Spammers and real estate agents, despicable as they may be, are a legitimate way of assessing modern English usage as well--if anything, a better one (they are trying to sell today, not in the Victorian age of many wikipedia sources).Complainer (talk) 07:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I question whether usage on these sites was generated by humans at all. —   AjaxSmack   23:03, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Even if the sites are software-generated, this software was written with English interfaces, by young English speakers in order to spam the contemporary English word with modern (as opposed to "good old") English ads. The one advantage wikipedia has over, say, Britannica is being up to the times, in language as well as information. My point of view is that opposing this move is a first step towards denying this advantage.Complainer (talk) 08:35, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * But imagine for a moment that 40% of English speakers said Puglia and 60% said Apulia, but three of the four bots that alone made up 99% of Google hits happened to use Puglia. In such an hypothetical circumstance, the number of Google hits – even if Google actually counted pages, which it doesn't, see my post of 23:19, 28 July 2010, below – would be seriously biased towards Puglia. (See for an example of such a phenomenon which actually happened, artificially increasing by several orders of magnitude the frequency of San Diego's population compared to that of population of San Diego.) A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 00:39, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * This is a very interesting hypothetical case, and I understand where it comes from but I have to warn other potential readers that considering it an argument against the move without further evidence amounts to a conspiracy theory. Complainer (talk) 12:19, 30 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment And your explanation for the overwhelming dominance of Puglia in Google News results?  Let's face it, Apulia is about as relevant to modern English as Leghorn or Latium.  Incidentally, the search AjaxSmack did for Firenze is hardly analagous, as he couldn't be bothered to (a) exclude Florence; or (b) exclude Wikipedia.  As he says, a Google search carried out like that is useless at indicating anything.  To do a comparison, he would need to search in English for Florence and Italy, excluding Wikipedia and Firenze (10,700,000 hits); and compare that with searching in English for Firenze plus Italy, excluding Wikipedia and Florence (2,440,000 hits).  He would thus have demonstrated that the common use in English is Florence.  Skinsmoke (talk) 08:19, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. The British National Corpus has 7 occurrences of Puglia and 22 of Apulia, whereas the Corpus of Contemporary American English has 43 of Puglia and 28 of Apulia; so I would deem both versions to be acceptable, and in any event both versions should be bolded at the beginning of the article. (I'm going to be WP:BOLD – no pun intended! – and do that myself.) A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 23:10, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * (Actually, 3 of the occurrences of Puglia in the BNC are a family name and 8 of the occurrences of Puglia in the COCA are part of Italian toponyms such as Orsara di Puglia; excluding those is 4–22 in the BNC and 35–28 in the COCA. A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 23:19, 28 July 2010 (UTC))
 * As for the reliability of Google hit counts, see etc. A. di M. (formerly Army1987) (talk) 23:26, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. References to what people have heard of or dukes is just blather. Google hits are also irrelevant. This Google News search of the recent decade for either "Apulia" or "Puglia", excluding "San Giuliano di Puglia" and including "heel" and "Italy" makes it clear that both terms are used in English, but that Puglia is now more common. And this comparison nails it:. Puglia excluding Apulia is twice as common as Apulia excluding Puglia. And take out "heel" and the results are even more striking for the last decade: 4960 to Puglia excluding Apulia, vs 964 for Apulia excluding Puglia. Fences  &amp;  Windows  00:10, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment Just to lay the "estate agent" argument to rest, some examples of use in contemporary English prose:
 * When cool, couture-clad Milanese began quietly descending upon Puglia a few years ago, it was clear that something was afoot. from The Times
 * In contrast with other towns of italy, the villages of Puglia have a solid stone architectural foundation tied closely to its lands. from Puglia Uncovered
 * In addition to being the most ecologically-friendly means of transport, the bicycle is the ideal way to see Puglia’s rural countryside. from Puglia in Bici
 * Something happened in Puglia. Or rather it didn't. Six years ago, the advent of cheap UK flights to Bari and Brindisi generated headlines. This remote southern corner of Italy was about to become the new Chiantishire – or so we were told. from The Independent
 * Born and raised in this region, your guide’s passion for and knowledge of Puglia are what sets this adventure apart. We open the doors to your individual discovery of the culture and history of the area, the diverse flavours of the cuisine, and the colors and perfumes that each destination of this region has to offer. from Experience Puglia
 * This innovative new travel and food guide helps you to get to know and appreciate Puglia through its food and the people who produce it. It offers a fresh approach to the enjoyment of the heel of Italy, bringing together interviews, profiles and stunning photography. from An Appetite for Puglia
 * The secluded beaches on San Domino, just off Italy's Puglia coast, are worth a visit and Cala delle Arene, Cala Matano and Cala Tramontana are among the island's best. from Telegraph Media Group
 * Fed up with the raucous gay scenes of Mykonos and Ibiza, Richard Bence discovers a low-key, bohemian alternative in Puglia's quiet coves from The Guardian
 * Puglia, which forms the 'heel' of Italy's boot-shaped outline, is an agriculrural paradise. The classic, picture-postcard image is of ancient, gnarled olive trees behind low stone walls, the landscape dotted with the distinctive, white-washed 'trulli' buildings. And indeed that landscape - seemingly frozen in time - still makes up large tracts of this region which, along with neighbouring Calabria, contributes 70% of all olives grown in Italy. from Wine Pages
 * On 20 November 2007, the European Commission approved an Operational Programme for Puglia for the period 2007-13. from European Commission
 * Head to the heel of Italy’s boot and discover a region with reasons to celebrate local food all year round. Gourmet heaven, thy name is Puglia! from Lonely Planet
 * Puglia is one of Italy's hotspots, though often mistakenly billed as the country's new Tuscany. The differences are vast, but this fascinating region has a unique identity all of its own. from World Travel Guide
 * Water is of critical importance to economic activities in the Puglia region of Italy. Puglia is one of the primary agricultural areas in Italy and water for irrigation is widely applied. During the past several decades, recurring droughts have had severe impacts on reservoir levels and underground water supplies and, therefore, the economy from National Center for Atmospheric Research
 * This week Amanda has got a couple of friends from Bristol, Paul Nuzzo and Jim Cullingford, to kick into shape. They have just £80,000 to find their Place in the Sun in picturesque Puglia in South-East Italy. from Channel 4]
 * Puglia, the remote heel of Italy's boot, dramatically combines fairytale cottages, Baroque churches and Pagan dances. This captivating region is served by two airports in the towns of Bari and Brindisi, but the area is not an obvious destination for foreign visitors from Condé Nast Traveller
 * I always hesitate to do these wrap ups because they force me to reflect on the obscene amount of food I am capable of eating. I especially overdid on a three day trip to Puglia recently from Parla Food
 * Italian prosecutors are investigating Merrill Lynch and Belgium's Dexia SA (DEXI.BR) in an inquiry into derivatives losses from 870 million euros ($1.22 billion) in Puglia regional bonds, authorities said on Wednesday from Reuters
 * A randomized rain enhancement experiment was carried out during 1988–94 in the area of Bari and Canosa, Italy, on the Adriatic coast. It was commissioned by the Italian Department of Agriculture and Forestry and the region of Puglia, with TECNAGRO, a nonprofit Italian company, as overall manager, and with EMS, an Israeli company, as field operator from The Rain Enhancement Experiment in Puglia, Italy: Statistical Evaluation by R. Lista, K. R. Gabrielb, B. A. Silvermanc, Z. Levind, and T. Karacostase in Journal of Applied Meteorology and Climatology published by American Meteorological Society
 * Puglia has some of the brightest seas, most diverse art and architecture, most mouthwatering peasant cuisine and kindest people in all of Italy — including strangers who will go out of their way to lead you to one after another stunning beach on impossibly lapis-lazuli waters from USA Today
 * The four distinct mafia "families"—Sicily's Cosa Nostra, the Camorra from Campania, the 'Ndragheta of Calabria and the lesser known Sacra Corona Unita in Puglia—dominate the economic life of one third of Italy from Wall Street Journal
 * The truck, belonging to a security company, was carrying the money from Cesena to the firm's main office in Bari, Puglia. from British Broadcasting Corporation
 * These simple words from the club's press release would have sent shivers down the spines of all those who follow the Satanelli. To many, this sentence would sound fairly inane - after all, it only states that a man called Mr Zeman will take over at a small club from Puglia; hardly front page news from A Different League
 * They are similar to structures found in Puglia, Italy’s heel, and some historians have theorised that shepherds borrowed the design while migrating flocks between the two areas from Building
 * That is how I became acquainted with Paolo Benegiamo, an Italian orthodontist and managing director of his family's wine-producing estate, L'Astore Masseria in the Lecce district of Puglia. Puglia is a strip of land between the Adriatic and Ionian seas that constitutes the heel of Italy's boot. from Pittsburgh Post–Gazette
 * I'll arbitrarily break it down into Sicily, Calabria (the toe), Basilicata (the arch), Campania (the shin) and Puglia (the heel). from Telegraph–Journal, Canada
 * The four Italian mafia families -- Sicily's Cosa Nostra, the Naples-area's Camorra, Calabria's 'Ndrangheta and Puglia's Sacra Corona Unita -- have killed more than 950 people in recent decades from PressTV
 * Skinsmoke (talk) 12:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

No mention of major cities
There is no mention of the major cities or other population centers, as measured by population, political influence or economic influence. Indeed there is no discussion about how the population is distributed. I think such a section should be added. --Bruce Hall (talk) 12:53, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

the flag
something has gone wrong with the flag — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.142.11 (talk) 20:13, 21 October 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 2

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Cúchullain t/ c 18:55, 11 January 2013 (UTC)

– Per WP:COMMONNAME. I was astonished to find an article at this title when searching for Puglia. Like some previous editors on this page, I had never heard the term we use, which suggested to me it wasn't such a common English name after all, and more of an archaic name. I wasn't content to argue based on my gut alone, however. (Maybe it's well known in the UK?) Sure enough, "Puglia" trounces "Apulia" in all uses based on searches in (general) Google, Google Scholar, Google Books, and Google News. My search preferences specify English, though I do see some Italian results got through. Results below. Britannica and the Library of Congress use Puglia too. BDD (talk) 18:39, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Apulia → Puglia
 * Politics of Apulia → Politics of Puglia
 * Template:Apulia → Template:Puglia

Survey

 * Google won't really count to 70 million for you -- the result numbers given above are too heavily ghosted to be meaningful. "Puglia" wins out on GTrends 58-9, but "Apulia" has the edge in this ngram. Highbeam has 156 results for "Apulia Italy" in the last two years, 355 for "Puglia Italy". Update: The Corpus of Contemporary American English has 49 examples of Apulia, 53 of Puglia. The British National Corpus has 22 results for Apulia, 7 for Puglia. The English-language site of ANSA, the Italian press agency, uses "Apulia." Kauffner (talk) 23:53, 28 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - searches need to take out classical/medieval references and other "noise". "european union" apulia 873x, "european union" puglia 1570x. This search immediately says what the 2nd page in the nom needs to be moved to. The geographical region is perhaps less immediately clear but the trend, to use the Latin name more for Roman to Napoleonic history, is still evident. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:27, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Oppose per WP:UE. And, as User:Kauffner notes above, "Apulia" is still more common in print sources.  —  AjaxSmack   03:31, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Oppose. It's commonly known as Apulia in English-speaking countries and this is English Wikipedia. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:48, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Sea Neighbours
Neighbouring countries across the sea are sorted alphabetically, bot the sentence says "across the Adriatic and Ionian sea, respectively". So it turns out that Montenegro is across Ionian sea, but it is on the cost of Adriatic sea. It would be better instead of using alphabetical order, to use N-S direction (Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Montenegro, Albania, Greece). --Caer-Caveral (talk) 11:54, 22 November 2013 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20110721132805/http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itf4_pop.htm to http://circa.europa.eu/irc/dsis/regportraits/info/data/en/itf4_pop.htm

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Olive oil scandal?
Regarding the section 3.2.1 "Olive oil scandal" there are no valid references. Those provided, are either unrelated with such a scandal or contain advertisement for Sicilian olive oil. Although adulteration and frauds could happen, there has never been nothing like an "Apulian olive oil scandal" in Italy. The only scandals I heard of involved industrial brands, most of which are from central Italy (eg Bertolli, Santa Sabina) or obscure brands of oil, sold in cheap germans supermarkets (Primadonna oil). Nothing related directly to Apulia (though Apulia produces the vast majority of Italian olives) - https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/11988947/Italian-companies-investigated-for-passing-off-ordinary-olive-oil-as-extra-virgin.html

I think the section should be removed

Etymology is not complete
It says it comes from " Ἀπουλία", but doesn't give the meaning of this word! That's absurd! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.91.51.235 (talk) 11:51, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

"Turin was "so far away that Otranto is today closer to seventeen foreign capitals than it is to Turin"
In such a short history section, this quote stands out as particularly odd. Turin was only the capital of Italy from 1861 to 1865, then it was briefly Florence, and finally Rome since 1871.

But the historian is correlating 1861-1865 to the modern political map. This has been altered a lot by the breakup of Yugoslavia - but in the 1860s there wasn't even a Yugoslavia to break up into pieces. What relevance has the modern Balkanised Balkans to the early 1860s?

Even if you looked at how many capitals were closer to Otranto than Turin in 1861, this is nothing particularly unusual. Look at a map of most countries - France, China, USA, Australia, Canada to begin with - and look how many people are far away from their capitals. This statement plays so much mental gymnastics it has practically no meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:E1AB:4500:E586:EF10:1FAE:7D0A (talk) 16:48, 18 February 2020 (UTC)

Absurd
The difference in material between the it.wiki page (https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puglia) and this one is absurd. Is the reason that many of the references in the it.wiki article aren't valid enough? JacktheBrown (talk) 19:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)