Talk:Arabic/Archive 3

Article on Al-
Hello. I'm wondering if any editers, particularly those with knowledge of Arabic and/or linguistics, but anyone really, could help expand or verify the above article. I expanded it from a one-sentence stub, and have come to the limit of my knowledge on the subject. Advice on verifiable references that would be appropriate for our English Wikipedia would be great, too. Thanks! -Fsotrain09 18:14, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Some changes needed - Proposal

 * The influence of Arabic has been most profound in those countries dominated by Islam or Islamic power.(...)

This is somewhat contradictory, since the Iberian peninsula was in fact "dominated by Islam" for some centuries, and yet Spanish and Portuguese appear earlier on this section alongside Italian (which was less influenced by Arabic and only marginally touched by Islam). I propose the following: a) to mention, in a separate sentence, all major European languages or dialects in which the influence of Arabic was considerable and the result of Islamic rule (notice that the current sentence structure places that mention as merely an addendum to the information on Arabic words in English). Then you would have: Mozarabic (most obviously), Spanish, Portuguese, Astur-Leonese, Aragonese, Catalan and Sicilian. b) and then change the reference "those countries dominated by Islam or Islamic power" to something like "regions with long-standing and permanent contact with Islam and culturally or politically affected by Islamic power, such as..." (not yet the ideal phrasing, to be sure, but a start...) 201.21.200.147 05:40, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

False Map Removed
Arabic is not one of the official language of Eritrea. that is false information so the map was removed.

Removed map: Image:Arabic.PNG

Please assist: Arabic Wikipedia in latin letters
Hi, I am german living in Berlin, Germany and my wife is from tunisia. Here in Berlin live many arabic and turkish people, too. I think there are many people on the world like the turkish or me which want to read Qur'an, Wikipedia... in arabic but dont know to read the arabic signs. So I feel a demand for a arabic wikipedia in latin/roman letters.

Please support this idea and vote for it on Arabic in latin letters. --Peter Littmann 17:22, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Aslemma, Sirmachni, ana iktib fi arbi tower: Ana Almanija u arbit fi Berlin-Neukölln. Sahida ana chismo Leila, Tunisia. Ana Muslim fi 1994. 1995 ana stamel mariage fi Ksar Hellal, near Monastir fi Tunisia. Howni fi Berlin arbit barscha arbi, barscha turkish. Ana schuf barscha turkish, hab schuf, hab fimta Qur'an. Fimtisch Arbi, fimtish Qur'an. Ana kifkif. Ana andik idea fi rassi ana: Stamel arabic Wikipedia bil latin/roman signs.

Min fadlek. Inti assist bil vote: Arabic in latin letters. --Peter Littmann 05:26, 1 October 2006 (UTC)

FYI Arabic speakers have been sending SMS phone messages to each other for years in transliterated Arabic due to the non-availability of Arabic text on most carriers. Annamonckton 08:16, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the fascinating mix of Tunisian Arabic and German, whoever that was. I followed the link to the vote page and found nothing about this proposal. Just for the record, I oppose a transliterated version of Arabic as a new language for Wikipedia. Here are my reasons:
 * There is no universally accepted standard way of transliterating Arabic in Latin characters. However, there is only one way of spelling Arabic words in the Arabic script.
 * Many of the characters used in the various transliteration schemes do not display on modern web browsers such as Internet Explorer 6.0.
 * The Arabic alphabet is particularly well suited to the representation of the sounds of Arabic, without the use of digraphs.
 * If you want to appreciate the beauty of the language, learning the actual alphabet will serve you well. The script is alphabetic (a so-called "impure" abjad) with only 28 basic symbols - a far smaller burden on the memory than many other scripts. --Cbdorsett 05:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Me too, I totally oppose writing Arabic in anything other than Arabic letters. I like the letters in my language as they are, I think most Arabs agree. Besides, it is one of (if not 'the') most beautiful alphabets in the world, why on earth would we want to change it? Maha

ʾā b t ṯh g ḥ/ħ kh dh ř s z šh ṣ d ṭ z ‛ ġh f/ph q k l m n h w y

Infobox is messed up
Im trying to figure out why its looking like it is. If anyone can help me out and fix it and tell me what was wrong would be greatly appreciated.

Bearingbreaker92 15:53, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Italics in Arabic
A guideline on whether or not to italicize Arabic (and all scripts other than Latin) is being debated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (text formatting). - - Evv 16:47, 13 October 2006 (UTC)

Number of speakers
The infobox currently seems to have three conflicting estimates on the number of speakers. If these numbers are trying to count the same thing, then the most reliable should be chosen, and the others dropped. If these numbers are actually counting different things, then that should be clarified... AnonMoos 03:26, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

HELP!!
HOW DO YOU REVERT PAGES? SOMEONE JUST DELETED THIS ARTICLE!!!!!Cameron Nedland 14:14, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your concern, but the problem was fixed. In the future, the "History" tab at the top of the page allows you to view prior versions and revert back to unvandalized ones. -Fsotrain09 16:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, thanks.Cameron Nedland 20:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

official language of morocco?
cia world factbook does not list arabic as an official language as is stated on the sidebar of this page. wikipedia "morocco" page similarly lists arabic as a non-official spoken language unsigned comment by User:74.128.114.146


 * In "People"'s section of the CIA world factbook it is stated:


 * Languages:
 * Definition Field Listing
 * Arabic (official), Berber dialects, French often the language of business, government, and diplomacy


 * Other links:
 * Background Note: Morocco - state.gov
 * Languages of Morocco - ethnologue.com
 * Arab States - portal.unesco.org -- Szvest 18:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up ®

Arabic in African American language/culture
I think it would be good to have the above because on the streets of African America many Arabic terms are used such as "Sunni Joint" (a Beard), "Aki"(brother) etc etc. --Halaqah 00:15, 13 November 2006 (UTC)


 * Neither of those examples seem to be from Arabic, to my admittedly not-fluent ear. Rhialto 03:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Aki or Akhi does actually mean brother in arabic. But Sunni Joint= bread...loool..I think that is another name for Joint (cannabis) :) Jidan 11:31, 1 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Akhi (أخي) means my borther in Arabic. I don't know whether it's the same as the above or not. --Maha Odeh 09:04, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikiversity
Hey all you native Arabic speakers, Arabic teachers, et al. The Arabic Department at Wikiversity could use a hand! Come on over.--Elatanatari 22:39, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Eytmology of Spanish aldea
Entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language Section: The influence of Arabic on other languages 4th and final paragraph: Is not "aldeia 'village' from التجارية aldaya," incorrect? Should it not state: "aldeia 'village' from الضيعة aldaya,"? Pudgepeter 01:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Yes, thats correct. Jidan 10:51, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Sudan
The map with the countries that have Arabic languages as national languages needs to be changes seeing how Sudan has both Arabic and English as an official language not "only" Arabic. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 134.82.91.41 (talk) 03:59, 7 December 2006 (UTC).


 * Yup, thats correct, English is an official second language due to English colonial rule

Image Change
Lebanon should be Blue on this map. French is an offical language in Lebanon.
 * No its not. That was during the French colonization. Jidan 22:15, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

thats what i hate about that map, most of the Arab countries have English, or french as a second official language... such as Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan, Gulf States etc... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arab League (talk • contribs) 10:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Origins and development of Arabic
A section at the start on the origins and development of Arabic is badly needed: discussion of the other languages from which it evolved and its place amongst other Semitic languages. The "history" section in Arab does this pretty well - maybe cut and paste? Jasper33 15:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


 * Good idea, but let's not just cut and paste. I'll work on adapting it on my homepage (comments and edits welcome!). Not sure when I'll be done. Drmaik 07:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Semi-protected
I've just semi-protected the article because of external link spamming. --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  16:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I would like to correct a typo but don't know how to do so. The adjective form of "Maghreb" is "Maghrebi," hence on the list of dialectal forms it should say "Maghrebi Arabic" not "Maghreb Arabic"


 * Done--Drmaik 08:29, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup needed
I think the following things need to be fixed:
 * Sounds:Vowels: The short vowel /a/ does not differ in quality from the long vowel /ā/. If we are talking about either Modern Standard Arabic or Fusha, it is incorrect to state that the short vowel should be rendered as "[ɛ̈] (open e as in English bed, but centralised)". Doubtless this is true of some dialect somewhere. Maybe the author is trying to approximate the Tunisian /a/, which falls precisely on the dividing line between American English /a/ as in "bad" and /e/ as in "bed". Recommendation: change to "[æ]" as in "bad", except after /r/, where it is pronounced [ɑ], as the "o" in American English "hot".
 * Sounds:Syllable structure: It is not correct to assert that Arabic has CVVC and CVCC syllable structures, at least, not on a par with CV, CVV and CVC. CVVC and CVCC can only occur when the final vowel of a word is trimmed off due to the regular practice at the end of a sentence or phrase. This process has a name, which I can't remember. Again, this article deals with Modern Standard Arabic, not any of the dialects, where those identified syllable structures CAN be found, along with CCV, CCVV (where VV represents a long vowel) and CCVCC.
 * Sounds:Consonants: "deemed" this really should be "termed"
 * Sounds:Consonants: about the velarization of the /l/, this is sometimes found in grammar books, but in actual practice and in modern dialects, an unvelarized /l/ is often heard in the word Allāh. The phrase "when the word follows" should be "when the /l/ follows"
 * Sounds:Stress:
 * "Only the last three syllables may be stressed" should be written "Stress falls on one of the last three syllables."
 * Stress never falls on the grammatical markers -u, -a, -i, -un, -an, -in (noun suffixes)
 * Stress never falls on the grammatical markers -tu, -ta, -ti, -a, -nā, -tum, -ū (verb suffixes (perfect) ) or -u, -a (verb suffixes (imperfect) ).
 * Stress always falls on the last syllable of grammatical markers -ā, -atā and -tumā (verb suffixes (dual perfect) )
 * Instead of "Given this restriction, the last "heavy" syllable (containing a long vowel or followed by two consonants) is stressed", it should be "The second-to-last syllable takes the stress if it is a "long" syllable (CVC or CVV, where VV represents a long vowel).
 * If the second-to-last syllable is a short syllable (CV), stress falls on the third-to-last syllable.
 * Dropping of the grammatical endings at the end of a sentence or phrase sometimes causes the stress to shift. /jāmi'atun/ -> /jāmi'a/
 * The occurrences of the word heavy should be replaced with long
 * The last paragraph deals exclusively with dialectal variants, and so should be moved to the section Dialectal variations
 * Dialectal variations:
 * /q/ is rendered as /ɡ/ in Southern Tunisia, though not in Northern Tunisia
 * actually that should be /g/ in rural dialects, and /q/ in urban.

--Cbdorsett 06:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
 * /ʤ/ is rendered as /ʒ/ in Tunisia
 * Some varieties of Levantine Arabic render /ay/ as /e/ and /aw/ as /o/
 * Grammar: I object to the use of [ to represent either 'ain or alif in the examples of triconsonantal roots.
 * Writing system: This lead paragraph needs some language cleanup.
 * Writing system:Calligraphy: Calligraphy has NOT fallen out of use in the Western world. I also question the reference to two 'modern' masters of the art form. Isn't this like a commercial plug?
 * Transliteration: As far as I know, there is not a single 'standard' for transliteration of Arabic into Latin characters. There are many systems, but none of them are standard. Correct me if I'm wrong; otherwise, these terms should be changed in the article.

Why don't you just go ahead and fix these things? As for dialect variations, I personally think this article should discuss both MSA and dialects in each section, while clearly distinguishing the two. After all, the dialects are much more used in actual speech than MSA, and focusing only on MSA in an article called "Arabic" is quite disingenuous. Benwing 07:26, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the vote of confidence. I will, in a while, after people have a reasonable chance to sound off. I don't think this article should be used as a dumping ground for details about all the dialects; each dialect can have its own page for such things. Here, I think all we need is a few illustrations. Cbdorsett 12:02, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * The suggestions seem good to me as well (bar one comment I've inserted above about Tunisian Arabic.Drmaik 13:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC)


 * Note that general Wikipedia style is to edit first and discuss later -- so go ahead and make your changes. note that there is a Varieties of Arabic page for dialect specifics. i agree with your statement about dialects; i think that this page should describe MSA (and clearly indicate this) and indicate common tendencies in the dialects that are different.  for example, in the section on grammar, it used to say that "Arabic has three cases" which i fixed to say "Literary Arabic has three cases" etc. and to indicate later on that spoken dialects have no cases any more. Benwing 02:24, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Regulated by
Regulated by section should be updated: There are four "Academy of the Arabic Language". One in Egypt (already mentioned), the oldest is in Damascus, there is one in Amman and one in Morraco (the most active). --AraLink 16:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

No vowels in ARABIC
Arabic does NOT contain any vowels!!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 24.202.231.10 (talk) 21:19, 26 January 2007 (UTC).


 * I believe that after reading this article, one can safely respond to this, that Arabic has three vowel with two lenghts, and a few diphthongs even. /a/, /i/, /u/, /a:/, /i:/, /u:/, /ai/, and /au/.  Writing generally does not include short vowels, but long vowels are written, as is the later part of the diphthong.  (Leaving some ambiguity if you're new to the language, if an I, or U in arabic is actually a diphthong, or a long vowel.)  I don't believe any further comment on this is necessary. --Puellanivis 22:31, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Persian influence on arabic
i do not feel like doing so, but there must be a section on the influence of the Persian language on arabic.

Yes, sure..Arabic has Persian influence .. Turkish influence, and other languages'. That may need a small article in itself. Opensourceit talk  22:38, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Cazimi?
Is Cazimi an Arabic or Persian word? It supposedly means "in the heart of the Sun" or "heart of the Sun." The article might be miscategorized, that's why I'm checking here. It's a technical astronomical/astrological term, fairly old it seems; does anyone know this? Are their any native speakers afoot that would know this or the word's origin(s)? --172.128.131.86 15:25, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
 * I believe it is an arabic name from the root verb Kasama / yaksimo (meaning to devide into two). --  Szvest   -  Wiki me up ®  15:45, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Cazimi
it is not a Persian word and does not even sound persian :)

There is a typo in the first line. It should be languages not language.

Ranking:
Ranking: 2 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.225.36 (talk) 00:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC).
 * I would say the ranking is 1. Since the Encarta source given for that states Chinese as first. But Chinese is not a language (since it includes Mandarin and Cantonese and other languages). Arabic should therefore be first.--Waqas1987 (talk) 15:13, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Arabic
Arabic Afro-Asiatic, Semitic 206 million (1998),Total population of Arab countries: 323 million (CIA 2006 est). now Encarta 2006 422 million

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_number_of_native_speakers

Ranking by Ethnologue estimate 2 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.139.225.36 (talk) 00:30, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

I've just changed the population of speakers in the infobox back to what it was. There are two issues here.

1) Despite being sourced, the 422 million figure is clearly wrong: the CIA has the whole population of the Arab World as 323 million, which would have to be the upper limit for any number of speakers, especially with the significant number of speakers of other languages. All other sources come in at under 225 million : the fact that so many other sources come in so low must lead to suspicion of this Encarta figure. Encarta states the source is SIL, but SIL's own figure, given through the Ethnologue, is 206 m. So there was evidently a mix up somewhere. Even Encarta doesn't agree with itself (see 206 million at ).

2) The figure I've put back (270 million) in was agreed on a while ago, but is not fully sourced, and so there are problems with that as well. All the estimates at under 225 milion do seem too low to me, but I can't find a reliable source in the 230 million - 300 million area, which is where I suspect the truth lies (but that's just me...).

In summary, the Encarta figure is so outlandish that I don't think it should be in the infobox. Opinions please! Drmaik 09:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

There are many Arabs that live outside the Arab world, plus many Muslims speak Arabic too. Only 18% of Muslims are Arabs. --AraLink 19:58, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry, I fail to see the relevance of the second comment. Yes, there are Arabs outside the Arab world, but no-one has ever claimed there to be more than 100 million. 10 million perhaps... If only 18% of Muslims are Arabs, then 422 million Arabs would give us 2.34 billion Muslims... this argument goes against your edits. And please, someone else comment! Drmaik 08:21, 16 May 2007 (UTC)


 * 30% of Muslims are Arabs

Added actual letters
I started out by using rtl-lang, but then I realized it didn't work for all letters (ف, in particular), and switched to using the letter without the template, which seems to work just fine. I didn't dare to replace the template IPA with a global class="IPA", though, because I don't know how it displays for other people. &mdash; Sebastian 07:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

30% of Muslims are Arabs

Arabic spelling in Wikipedia articles
I'm new to Wikipedia and would like to contribute by providing the original versions of Arabic names and words for article headings as well as correcting misspelled names and words. Is there a series of guidelines for this somewhere? I plan to start by correcting the Arabic in the "Mutaween/متطوّعون" article, as the Arabic term in question there is misspelled as "مطوعين" (note the missing letter ت). The version given on the page, however, while incorrect in Written Standard Arabic, does reflect Saudi pronunciation of the term when speaking in dialect. What should well-meaning Arabic-speaking editors do in cases like this? And should we worry about Standard Arabic case endings, i.e., "متطوعون" versus "متطوعين"?

All input from the well-informed will be welcome.

Rafa8134 22:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

No, you should keep it as is.

Mutaween has nothing to do with volunteers. Regarding origin of the word, that may be its religious word that this word has been derivated from "volunteer" as this "job" is a Hesbah/حسبة job..should be done for no money..exactly as teaching Quran, etc.. so the origin may be volunteer, yes.

So, it's totally different than the non-religious, any-religion "volunteers"

For the other question, yes, we should always use the subject form form the plural "متطوعون" not the object form "متطوعين". Thanks Opensourceit 00:54, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Spam link
I have removed a badly written plea to spam posted here. The matter extends to widespread cross-wiki spamming by 82.226.48.111 (talk · contribs · [ logs] · block user · [ block log]), and has been passed on to meta:Talk:Spam blacklist (Permanent link). Please direct all comments there. — Gareth Hughes 11:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


 * 30% of Muslims are Arabs

languages of arabs
you should writing in aricle the arabs languages which use between arab and languages are from origin arabic: Literary Arabic language

Bathari Arabic language

Harsusi Arabic language

Maltese Arabic language

Tigrinya Arabic language

Jibbali Arabic language

Mehri Arabic language

Soqotri Arabic language

Darija Arabic language

a new Map
i made a new map for the Arabic speakers so we wouldnt have such problems about who should be in blue and who in green, I created a map to show where Arabic is spoken in north Africa and the Middle east, but it has been deleted several times, I dont understand what the problem with this map is??

it is larger, better made, more accurate and more informative then just saying who has another official language besides arabic...


 * could you link to it here in the talk page so we can discuss it? Thanks, Drmaik 14:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)


 * [[Image:Arabic_Language.PNG|600px]]

i personally think it looks more proffesional then the other (tom and jerry) map in blue and green... i realize that the parts around Eritrea are a little confusing, since the sources i found were not very clear, so if you have a better map of arabic there, ill be glad to re-upgrade it..


 * Thanks. It looks like a lot of work went into it. You mention it is larger, and I think that's a disadvantage, but I believe there are ways to make images smaller, while still maintaining access to a bigger image for those that want to see more detail. Sorry, I don't know how to do that. The main problem otherwise is Somalia, which has large areas as Arabic majority, while it is mainly Somali which dominates: I'm not sure Arabic should even be minority in most of Somalia and Eritrea. Also much of Sudan (e.g. Nuba mountains) should be Arabic minority. I realise these issues are impossible to solve to everyone's satisfaction. If these issues (size and Somalia in particular) could be sorted out, I'd support including it, without deleting the other image. But I'd like to see others comment as well. Drmaik 04:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

yes the Image is big, but i can regulate its size with the proportions of the Page, and will offer a bigger size when opened. as for Kurdufan, i will update the map to include the Nuba Mts and Somalia ...

nice, but how is the copyright holder of a map generated by "Arab Atlas"? Either the map is PD, and we should remove the "created by" notice, or it isn't, in which case we should delete it. dab (𒁳) 09:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)


 * The first issue I see is that this continues to show large portions of the Algerian Sahara as Arabic speaking majority (presuming this means Arabic Mother Tongue, which is the natural reading of the meaning) and I believe there are factual issues with that. Similarly showing Arabic speaking majority extending down into Senegal is simply FALSE. Minority, certainly. Majority, no. Also it shows most of Dar Fur as Arabic speaking majority (and again I presume Arabic mother tongue). RE Somali, Arabic speaking majorities? What standards are being used here? (collounsbury 11:52, 7 September 2007 (UTC))


 * collounsbury, i have gathered my map from bits and pieces from credible sources, mainly from wikipedia, and from demographics of these countries... if your annoyed with Algeria having a large part with Arabic, then im sorry to tell you that it is a fact, as for Somalia, i dont really know what you mean!! the map clearly shows that a small part of somaliland has Arabic majorities...

Arab League User (talk) 10:33, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
 * I missed this. In short, you response says that you're engaging in original research and guessing at population areas / zones. I am removing the map as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research and due to the fact I question its accuracy on the "margin" areas (e.g. you show Dar Fur as being majority Arabic Speaking) and given lack of clarity on precise sourcing (hand waving lots of different sources does build my confidence). When you can demonstrate via good sourcing the map colouring, then my objection will go away. (collounsbury (talk) 16:35, 12 January 2008 (UTC))

Sugar
Sugar came from Persian shakar. Compare Russian sakhar for example. It is a common IE word.--Dojarca 12:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

not true —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League (talk • contribs). English: Sugar (Shuger) French: Sucre (Sukr)

Persian: Shakar Arabic: Suker

i find Arabic is more relevant, id say Persian took this word from Arabic rather then the opposit... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Arab League (talk • contribs).
 * BTW, it is clear from the citation http://www.history-science-technology.com/Articles/articles%2072.htm that Arabic derived the term from Persian. Nevertheless it is equally clear given European contact with Sugar came from the Crusades and contact with the Arabic speaking Levant, that in English the term derives from Arabic. People should keep straight the difference between ultimate origins and direct derivation. (collounsbury (talk) 13:02, 15 January 2008 (UTC))

See Sugar. It's neither of Arabic origin nor common IE. The process of refining it was developed in the 4th century CE and the refined product wasn't known in the time of the formation of Classical Arabic or in the foggy Indo-European past. The name in all of these languages descends from the Sanskrit term for refined sugar "sharkara." IQAG1060 (talk) 21:54, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
 * That is a rather disorganized article. In etymological dictionaries it seems well established that the European "sugar / sucre" etc came from Arabic, which itself derived sukar directly or indirectly from Indian sources (perhaps via Persia). As such, in English Sugar is derived from Arabic. (collounsbury (talk) 12:47, 15 January 2008 (UTC))