Talk:Ark Encounter/Archive 4

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Some comments on POV pushing versus POV

I want to point out a few things here. There is a difference between WP:POVPUSHing and having a POV, for certain. If you are a creationist or a Christian, you have that POV. If you are not, you have a POV that is not Christian and not creationist. To pretend otherwise is pure chicanery.

It is important to be honest about this. This is not a situation where someone with a POV is incapable of editing this article, nor is that to say their edits or actions will necessarily skew an article away from the WP:NPOV goal.

However, it is undoubtably the case that creationists/Christians will tend to more easily fall into the traps that are WP:POVPUSHing. This is okay, and it isn't a problem unless it goes unnnoticed or unchecked. Occasionally, that happens and it's important to point this out truly and honestly.

So I want it to be clear that I am not commenting on individuals when pointing out POVs or POV-pushing. I'm just trying to get to the point where the content is the best it can be.

jps (talk) 22:04, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Why is it the case that "creationists/Christians will tend to more easily fall into the traps that are WP:POVPUSHing" than those who hold the opposite POV? I have found that atheists are often no less committed to their worldview and no less zealous in defending or advocating it than Christians. This seems to me like an unsupported – and possibly unsupportable – generalization. Neither I nor 1990'sguy have made any secret of our largely shared worldview, and although some have considered it problematic, the community as a whole has not found it sanction-worthy. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 22:26, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia rules in general, do not forbid its editors from having a variety of personal beliefs. It forbids us from publishing these beliefs as our own original research. I am not in agreement with 1990'sguy's ideas, but over the last couple of years I have seen him trying to provide sources for whatever article he is working on. So I a can at least trust that he is not trying to use articles as propaganda pages. Dimadick (talk) 23:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

That's good! However, I think there are subtle ways one can POV-push as well. This should be something we are free to talk about. jps (talk) 00:29, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Again, one's POV is not the issue. The issue is, and always has been, WP:POVPUSHing. If it is acknowledged and dealt with and we move on, no harm -- no foul. It's only when it becomes entrenched that we have issues. jps (talk) 00:30, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Other editors tried, and failed, to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the community that 1990'sguy and I are POV-pushing. See here and here. If you want to re-hash that discussion, have at it, I guess, but don't pretend it hasn't been discussed. It just didn't confirm your assertions about POV-pushing. Acdixon ^{(talk · contribs)} 14:40, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Why is it the case that "creationists/Christians will tend to more easily fall into the traps that are WP:POVPUSHing" than those who hold the opposite POV? -- This is an excellent question. It isn't true generally that creationists and Christians fall more easily into the POVPUSH trap, but it is absolutely the case in articles about Christianity and creationism. This is much to say that people who are writing about POVs that they identify with are more likely to push that POV than when writing about POVs that they do not identify with. This is unavoidable and it is not disconfirming. It's just a fact about the way human beings who write reference works will be. To be clear, it is a false dichotomy to claim that there is a Christian/creationist POV and those with the "opposite" POV. I hold no particular animosity towards Christians/creationists compared to any other particular POV, but the fact is that those who are not Christians/creationists are less likely to POVPUSH on topics related to that subject than those who are. There are, I suppose, some people who are explicitly anti-Christian who would also suffer from this problem, but, to be 100% clear, it isn't a problem that would cause us to say that such people shouldn't edit a page. It's just something we need to be honest about and it's problematically not been something that people are honestly talking about here. jps (talk) 00:48, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

This is off-topic for an article talk page. Further, arguing with people to change their fundamental beliefs failed in newsgroups forty years ago and won't work here. Johnuniq (talk) 01:02, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, normally I think we shouldn't discuss this on the talkpage, but as I anticipated, there are people arguing that we should not discuss POVs of editors above, so as long as we all come to the understanding we need to, I'm happy to close this. I certainly don't think we should try to change people's fundamental beliefs. jps (talk) 02:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)