Talk:Arthur M. Schlesinger Sr.

Untitled
This article claims that he wrote The Age of Jackson, and I'm pretty sure it was the son, not the father.

cyclical view
I came here after viewing the article on his son, Arthur, Jr. This mentions briefly about his cyclical view of history. I would be greatly interested in learning more about his theories in this article and perhaps in an article of their own. I don't really know what "cycles" means and would appreciate if it were explained a bit further.

Arthur Schlesinger not Arthur Schlesinger Sr
His name was Arthur Schlesinger not Arthur Schlesinger Sr. When a man gives his son his own name the son is given the suffix Jr. to differentiate him from his father and namesake. There are several famous examples including John F. Kennedy who named his son John F. Kennedy Jr. On John F. Kennedy’s Wikipedia page he is John F. Kennedy not John F. Kennedy Sr. The same with Donald Trump whose eldest son is Donald Trump Jr. On Donald Trump’s Wikipedia page he is Donald Trump not Donald Trump Sr. Other examples are Robert F. Kennedy, who has a son named Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his brother Edward M. “Ted” Kennedy who has a son named Edward M. “Ted” Kennedy Jr.  NapoleonX (talk) 21:25, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Not in this case...here is the NY TIMES obituary: "October 31, 1965 Arthur M. Schlesinger Sr., Historian, Dies at 77 BOSTON, Oct. 30-Arthur M. Schlesinger Sr., one of the nation's outstanding historians, died today at Peter Bent Brigham Hospital after a brief illness. He was 77 years old."   Likewise the Harvard Crimson newspaper: "Arthur M. Schlesinger Sr., Francis Lee Higginson Professor of History, emeritus, died Saturday in Peter Bent Brigham Hospital. A teacher at Harvard for thirty years, Schlesinger was a pioneering American social historian and a prominent intellectual figure among American liberals. He was 77." Rjensen (talk) 22:21, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

His name was Arthur Schlesinger not Arthur Schlesinger Sr. The New York Times was distinguishing him from his equally famous son Arthur Schlesinger Jr. It’s sort of like the media references to Ken Griffey Sr. and Ken Griffey Jr. Actually the elder Griffey’s name is just George Kenneth Griffey not George Kenneth Griffey Sr. Another example of this is the reference to Bill Gates and his father as Bill Gates Sr. even though the elder Bill Gates was actually Bill Gates Jr. and his son the co-founder of Microsoft is Bill Gates III. NapoleonX (talk) 01:58, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
 * our editors at Wikipedia are not in the business of deciding what a person's "real" name is. Instead we follow the reliable sources like the NY Times. Rjensen (talk) 03:18, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

It’s clear by all the subjects who are men with son’s Jr. John F. Kennedy had a son John F. Kennedy Jr. but he is John F. Kennedy not John F. Kennedy Sr. The same with Donald Trump and his son Donald Trump Jr. In public they may refer to Arthur Schlesinger Sr. & Arthur Schlesinger Jr. But the elder Arthur Schlesinger’s name never changed. He is the original Arthur Schlesinger. The Jr.(Junior) is to set the younger Arthur Schlesinger from his father with the identical name. NapoleonX (talk) 02:39, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * you generalize from 2 cases (one died as a baby) ??? try 100 casesss and come back to us. Rjensen (talk) 02:55, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

There’s more than two cases. I just picked a couple for examples, but there’s Edward Kennedy and Edward Kennedy Jr.; Robert F. Kennedy and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. ; Martin Luther King and Martin Luther King Jr. T It doesn’t matter when the father died. The reason for the Jr. (Junior) is differentiate the son from the father. Then the son of Jr. is III. There is no Sr. in the name of the first of the name. Bill Gates the Microsoft co-founder and his father are called Bill Gates and Bill Gates Sr. even though the younger Bill Gates is actually William Henry Gates III and his father is William Henry Gates Jr. Although to differentiate between two well known father and sons they are called Sr. and Jr. such as in the case of Ken Griffey and Ken Griffey Jr. who are called Ken Griffey Sr. and Ken Griffey Jr. The elder Griffey is just Ken Griffey although he goes by his middle name. His full name is George Kenneth Griffey and his son is George Kenneth Griffey Jr. NapoleonX (talk) 04:58, 9 May 2021 (UTC)

To clarify when you said “ one died as a baby” you mean JFK died when JFK Jr. was a baby? If that’s what’s you meant, John F. Kennedy Jr was born in the White House, he was 2 years old at the time of his father’s death. The point remains that when a man has a son and names him his own identical full name (First name, middle name & last name) the son is a Jr. (Junior) and the father is simply his own name, no Sr.(Senior) after his name. (e.g. John Smith, father of John Smith Jr.) NapoleonX (talk) 05:06, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
 * you need to cite the reliable secondary sources you are using. For example, https://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/leadership/william-h-gates-sr shows the Gates Foundation states: "William H. Gates Sr. (d. 2020) guided the vision and strategic direction of the foundation ".... Google Scholar shows over 6 Million scholars using their name with Sr in published scholarly articles at this search. Rjensen (talk) 15:06, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
 * And 7 million scholars call themselves Jr. https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=1%2C27&q=jr&btnG=  Rjensen (talk) 15:39, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

I’m not talking about how they are referred to in newspapers and other media. This is an encyclopedia and refers to facts not nicknames or how the media refers to someone. There is no such thing as “not in this case.” All biographical subjects are treated the same. The fact is the elder Arthur Schlesinger is and remains simply Arthur Meier Schlesinger. His son of the same name was legally Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr. The elder Arthur Schlesinger’s name didn’t change to Arthur Schlesinger Sr. when his son was born. Microsoft founder Bill Gates is really William Henry Gates III and his father was William Henry Gates Jr. Since Bill Gates III was famous and his father was also famous, the media referred to the more famous Bill Gates as simply Bill Gates and his father was referred to as Bill Gates Sr. Despite this the elder Bill Gates was actually William Gates Jr. and his son was actually William Gates III. NapoleonX (talk) 01:14, 12 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia requires that assertions be supported by published reliable secondary sources.....You have failed to cite any--really--a fatal flaw when it comes to convincing editors. Rjensen (talk) 01:24, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

I have shown precedents. There is no source required for a plain fact. Nobody is John Smith Sr. That’s why there is a Jr. (Junior) after their son’s names if they name the same name. It is a fact that Microsoft founder Bill Gates is actually Bill Gates III. His father is Bill Gates Jr. You cite the Gates Foundation? That’s about as reliable as a company newsletter. Are you saying that Bill Gates Jr. the father of the famous Microsoft founder is magically turned into Bill Gates Sr? NapoleonX (talk) 07:06, 12 June 2021 (UTC)