Talk:Asset forfeiture

Comments
I have taken some info that I believe was wrongly included in the article about Search and seizure and added to this article, removing one bit of POV (see below). It still needs serious work as their is lots of info on this very controversial subject that can be added. Some areas this article should probably cover include:
 * The legal fiction of claiming the item to be forfeited as having responsibility in committing the crime it was used in.
 * Types of crimes in which it has been often used in such as solicitation of prostitution, drug related crime, organized crime, etc.
 * The arguments the forfeiture is a form of unjust punishment of owner since a crime need not be generally proven by authorities to forfeit items claimed to have been used in the crime.
 * The argument that forfeiture has been often abused due to the significant financial benefits for authorities.
 * Claims by supporters of asset forfeiture that the current laws regarding forfeiture provide adequate protection against abuse.
 * The various reform laws passed by congress and among the states.
 * Arguments for additional reform laws or improvements of current reform laws.
 * The history of asset forfeiture in from old Europe to current times.
 * Their are some prominent forfeiture cases, including some controversial ones that can be mentioned too.

I removed the following from the moved text as it was POV:

"confiscation as a tool by which the government can steal their property under drug laws are never formally charged with any crime. "

If it is reworded to be NPOV it could be added back. --Cab88 12:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Is there any diffrence between stealing and confisticating? In both cases the property is taken without the concent of the possesor/owner. Zarutian 13:44, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

When you confiscate a thing you have some kind of right or authority backing you up. When you steal a thing there is nothing official backing you. It is somewhat like the difference between a pirate and a privateer. Ken McE (talk) 16:39, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

When the judiciary forfeits a surety bail bond, the court shall order the underwriting insurance company pay the face-amount of the surety bail bond. --Sponsion (talk) 21:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

A citation is needed for the 80% of cases not having criminal charges. I'm not familiar with how to add citations, so I will put it here and hope a Wiki expert edits the main article. The ISIL has a pamphlet that mentions this figure. It in turn cites the Pittsburgh Press for its source. It also gives sources for some other figures in this article that need citations even though they are not flagged as such. For example, it claims that the Washington Times reported the figure mentioned in this article regarding the sum total of assets controlled by the US Marshalls Service. As for stealing vs. confiscated, I've heard it claimed that confiscated property is something that is taken away temporarily and will be returned once whatever problem there is becomes resolved. For example, if I confiscate my child's xBox for bad behavior then eventually I give it back unless he becomes a really bad boy. That is in contrast to a burglar who just takes things unconditionally, permanently. One could make the case that confiscation is a de facto theft if it is done with the explicit intent to take permanent possession, knowing that the true owner will be unable to resolve the issue required to receive the property back. For example, if I were to confiscate my child's xBox (so I can play with it) until such time as he gets a 4.0 GPA despite knowing he has a learning disability then that could be construed as de facto theft. I think a NPOV statement would be that critics of the system note the civil asset forfeiture laws provide a monetary incentive for law enforcement agencies to find ways to use confiscation in ways that are de facto theft rather than to use confiscation in ways that deter crime. (For one example, contrast to the incentivization of if the procedes had to be donated to charities unrelated to law enforcement rather than put in the budgets of the very same law enforcement agencies taking the property.) -David Mooter, March 5, 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.93.10.192 (talk) 00:21, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Need to Edit Paragraph 3 Under Abuse and Controversy

Just wanted to add that the third paragraph under abuse and controversy needs editing. The vast majority of it is opinion, in fact the first sentence is a command to the readers.

"When people are convicted of crime then punish all offenders equally within the guidelines of a predetermined penalty. Forfeiture creates disturbing imbalances when attaching punishment to crime. Criminals who have assets are treated very differently to criminals who have nothing. Forfeiture targets assets not criminals and it does not prevent crime. Did the forfeiture of Prophet's home (http://www.simonprophet.com.) send out a clear message to drug gangsters? The police statistics in South Africa indicate that the civil forfeiture of his home actually promoted the particular drug crime of which he was accused by a staggering 7 500% increase within 4 years" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.194.214.194 (talk) 21:41, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Asset forfeiture vs Confiscation
Is there enough difference to keep two articles (Confiscation)? Сергей Олегович (talk) 05:15, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

External links POV
The external links section of this article appears on its face to be a collection of anti-forfeiture screeds. Probably all of these links should be deleted, and any new links should be carefully considered as per the criteria of External links. Objections?--Dbratland (talk) 04:03, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, with the possible exception of the link from Legal Information Institute, Cornell University, which arguably provides useful and reliable information additional to what is provided in the article. If no objections are voiced, will remove in one week -- INCLUDING inline references to those external links. Abigatorbait (talk) 18:48, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Asset forfeiture vs. Disgorgement
Disgorgement sounds like a special case of asset forfeiture or a term used in certain jurisdictions but neither article mentions the other. Whether a merge is proper or not, perhaps someone familiar with the subject could explain the differences and expand on, and give context to, when "disgorgement" is used. — Magnus Holmgren (talk) 09:33, 12 February 2011 (UTC)


 * It's not that closely related, if I'm reading right: disgorgement affects the proceeds of a crime, forfeiture the purported tools of a crime. —Tamfang (talk) 22:48, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Abuses and controversy section
The section Entitled "abuses and controversy" speaks with authority but includes not one citation. While the claims made there are plausible many of them would not be unambiguous facts even if they were true; their relevance depends entirely on differences of opinion about things like jurisdiction, law enforcement funding, due process, etc. As such it's almost gbald editorializing to write such a lengthy, nuanced section without any citations at all. I'm deleting it; if you wrote it, please simply find some citations rather than starting some reposting/flame war or huffing that you've been in law enforcement for fifteen years or some such. I understand that opinions are strong and that some expertise is difficult to cite, but writing a section on largely subjective topic matter requires some citations when you're creating encyclopedic rather than journalistic or editorial content. It's not all about the citations, but some content is not very helpful or appropriate without them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.173.134.91 (talk • contribs) 03:12, 21 October 2011‎
 * no worries, people interested in the abuses and controversy of asset forfeiture can read all about it in the revision unaffected by user 99.173.134.91, here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asset_forfeiture&oldid=456622051 76.119.30.87 (talk) 00:52, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Moved from article as unsourced
I'm guessing that much of this can easily be sourced. --Ronz (talk) 15:53, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Abuses and controversy
The widespread use of such proceedings, which usually involve assertion of in rem jurisdiction, has also brought many complaints about their misuse to deprive innocent persons of their lawful property. Without a requirement to prove that a crime had been committed, much less committed by the party in possession of the property, it has become too easy for law enforcement personnel to seize and prosecutors to forfeit properties worth as much as $20,000 because it will likely cost the person that much in legal fees to recover them. This is because in such cases the courts no longer abide by the old common law rule that the party in possession is to be presumed the lawful owner unless it is proved otherwise. Thus, a person carrying $6,000 in cash to a vehicle auction where the auctioneer will only take cash may be stopped and his cash seized because it is presumed only a drug dealer would have or carry that much cash.

The problem is exacerbated by the laws and rules that allow the agencies seizing the assets to keep the money for their operations, including the funding of salaries and promotions, the purchase of vehicles and equipment, and discretionary spending. In addition, there are often not strict controls on how the assets are liquidated, and law enforcement agents are discovered to have acquired forfeited assets, such as vehicles, boats, and other luxury items, without having paid full market value for them, or even anything at all. There have even been complaints about law enforcement officers seizing cash and other assets under the pretext of forfeiture and then just keeping them without reporting the seizure.

Another potential abuse involves the timing of police seizures. The police cannot auction seized illegal drugs, but using asset forfeiture they can keep or auction lawful goods purchased with money from the sale of illegal drugs. If the police wait to arrest a suspect they believe to be in possession of illegal drugs until after he or she has sold them, they stand to gain more from asset forfeiture than if they effect an immediate arrest while the suspect is still in possession of the illegal drugs. In this way, police forces are perversely discouraged to stop the sale of illegal drugs, so that the value of these drugs may be converted through unlawful sales into property the police can make use of.

The opportunity of forfeiture also gives the police an incentive to exert political influence, in their official capacity and through their unions, against liberalization of drug laws.

In South Africa the Prevention of Organized Crime Act of 1998 is inconsistent with section 25(1) of the South African Bill of Rights. Even before a person has committed a crime, the right of every person to own property is severely derogated by civil forfeiture. According to section 36(1), civil rights may be derogated only to the extent that the derogation is reasonable and justifiable.

"pursuant to law"
The very first sentence of the article, "Asset forfeiture is a form of confiscation of assets by the state, pursuant to law." is questionable at best.

Most people would deny that this form of confiscation of assets by the state is pursuant to law, since it is in many cases clearly unconstitutional.

I call POV on this. ---Dagme (talk) 16:46, 11 March 2014 (UTC)
 * (Alleged) unconstitutionality does not mean that it's not pursuant to law. Even bad or questionable law is still law.—Totie (talk) 01:32, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

differentiate
Perhaps there should be a link to civil forfeiture and/or administrative forfeiture so people can differentiate between the two. Or it can be discussed in a separate section in the article. Just an idea...CaityJanelle (talk) 01:40, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Potential sources
I haven't made any changes to the article but I am placing a few ideas in the talk page so that I can find it later and piece it all together, like my outline. That way all of you will be able to view my sources and ideas before I post them and make my changes.
 * 1) http://web.b.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail/detail?sid=1d958144-4f2f-45a9-befd-8823f45480f8%40sessionmgr112&vid=5&hid=105&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=cja&AN=59995187 Race and Civil Asset Forfeiture: A Disparate Impact Hypothesis.

This source is from the Weber State Library. Abstract: The article discusses the institutional reform law of civil asset forfeiture which enforces social and racial minorities in the U.S. The author emphasized that the theory behind the forfeiture provisions of law enforcement agencies targeted the withdrawal capital and funds of producers and dealers in drug trade. It states that the Institute for Justice has adjusted with the Department of Justice's Asset Forfeiture Program for acquiring justices in criminal conviction. Cameronpage25 (talk) 17:11, 3 October 2014 (UTC)


 * 2)http://web.b.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail/detail?sid=1d958144-4f2f-45a9-befd-8823f45480f8%40sessionmgr112&vid=9&hid=105&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZQ%3d%3d#db=cja&AN=26436 Theorising Asset Forfeiture in Ireland.

This source touches mainly on Asset Forfeiture in Ireland and gives a deeper understanding of the topic at an international level. Cameronpage25 (talk) 17:22, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Potential Edits
1) Stronger definition of asset forfeiture. There is a lot of fluff in the current definition and some meaningless info. 2) More detail on where the assets go after they are confiscated. 3) A section of limitations of asset forfeiture.

I feel that these potential edits will strengthen the article. Cameronpage25 (talk) 17:19, 10 October 2014 (UTC) Cj2300 (talk) 17:20, 10 October 2014 (UTC)Marquel HolmesCj2300 (talk) 17:20, 10 October 2014 (UTC)


 * I like all of these ideas. The article also has a banner noting that the "Civil and Criminal Law" section needs to be rewritten in an encyclopedic style. That's also something you could work on. Profmwilliams (talk) 19:26, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Addition to the Introduction
Congress has incrementally expanded the government's authority to disrupt and dismantle criminal enterprises and their money laundering activities since the early 1970's. They have done this by enacting various anti-money laundering and forfeiture laws such as the RICO act, of 1970, and the US Patriot Act, of 2001. Cameronpage25 (talk) 17:28, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

History (peer review)
Congress has incrementally expanded the government's authority to disrupt and dismantle criminal enterprises and their money laundering activities since the early 1970s. They have done this by enacting various anti-money laundering and forfeiture laws such as the RICO Act of 1970 and the US Patriot Act of 2001. The war on drugs has had a major affect on law enforcement strategies including asset forfeiture for both criminal and civil cases. Cameronpage25 (talk) 18:45, 7 November 2014 (UTC), CJ2300

I added a bit more to the history including everything after the above paragraph and a couple sources in support of my findings.

Forfeiture of Terrorist Finances
I added another section to the article that touches on the forfeiture and disruption of terrorist funds. I have also included a source in support of my findings. Cameronpage25 (talk) 16:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Where do all of the Forfeited assets go?
I have created a new section about where the assets go after they have been confiscated. This does not cover all of the places where the finances are dispersed but I have touched on a few. Cameronpage25 (talk) 17:07, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Rewrote intro
The intro had a lot of unnecessary wording and notes that didn't make sense. I tried to smooth out a little and simplify it a bit. Cameronpage25 (talk) 17:50, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

Revised Criminal and Civil Law
Legal systems are categorized between criminal and civil, that generally use there own court system, because of different necessary steps that follow conviction. Traditionally crimes are public view as wrong and unlawful doings that harm society which has to be reckoned with by way of law so that similar offenses will not be committed again.The word criminal carries a negative stigma socially or with in the court system, criminal justice system provide some protections against procedural legal systems in civil cases. Involving of civil proceedings, is generally frowned on as wrong towards private individuals. Needless to say this also is not a guaranteed transaction, because the state can also civilly sue multinational corporations if crimes are committed with in a corporation. Laws do not aim to punish, but provide band aids on society. Asset forfeiture generally get criticized in a negative manor civilly. Conflict that appear is, when the legal system enforce seizing ones assets, who's to say that those assets are not being held on to for the legal system it self. Cj2300 (talk) 18:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)marquel holmesCj2300 (talk) 18:37, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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External links modified
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US Civil Asset Forfeiture and Administrative Asset Forfeiture - Unconstitutional and Fraud
US Civil Asset Forfeiture section was removed and redirected to here, by someone. Intentional or Unintentional to hide fatal flaws (unconstitutional and fraud information).

Under the US constitution - Civil Asset Forfeiture and Administrative Asset forfeiture is unconstitutional. 4th Amendment - Protection from theft by the government. (Unreasonable Seizure) 5th Amendment - Process of law to determine if the property was seized legally. (Due Process) 8th Amendment - Unlawful and unfairly punished. (Excessive fines, and cruel and unusual punishment) 9th Amendment - Laws shall not be construed to deny the enumerated rights listed in the Constitution or others retained by the people.

Claims of "dismantling organized crime", is false. It's just propaganda. They never charged the owner with a crime. They skipped out on Due Process, the part where they (the government) charge the owner with a crime and prove it. They simply steal (spelling is correct) the property. In some cases, the owner is threatened with (false) imprisonment for not signing a waiver that says the money does not belong to the owner.

To legally seize money, for example, involved in money laundering. They would need to charge the owner with money laundering and prove it in a court of law (better known as Due Process). The process already exists.

You can for example arrest a government official for using civil asset forfeiture to steal property. They can't prove it was involved with a crime because they never charge the owner with a crime before stealing it. The prosecution can prove it was stolen because the owner was never charged with a crime. The owner's rights were violated, 4th, 5th, 8th, 9th Amendment. If you understand the law, it should take no effort to see why Due Process is not an optional in cases of seizure, imprisonment, and the death penalty.

The government official(s) can be charged with theft, fraud, money laundering (claiming it was seized under civil asset forfeiture or administrative asset forfeiture), grand larceny, abusing government powers, and racketeering.

They also seem to be involved with the edit (and edit warring) of the topic in Wikipedia. They have been known to remove all information related to the unconstitutionality of Civil Asset Forfeiture and what it really is fraud (a crime). They included material from criminal asset forfeiture to shore up it's legitimacy, in a previous attempt and now it's been reduced to a subsection missing vital information again.

If unintentional, you have persons in law enforcement who are completely incompetent at law. It seems intentional, they keep hiding any information that points to unconstitutionality and fraud. They appeared to be involved with the editing (edit wars also) of Wikipedia on the topic.

Tae Hyun Song — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.225.182.47 (talk) 22:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)