Talk:Association football/Archive 18

transfers
can anyone please tell me how transferring and renting a player is done.--Wisdombug (talk) 12:20, 12 February 2008
 * Usually, the first step is for a manager to identify players he/she would like to fill a weak spot in his/her team. The manager would then notify their chairman, who would contact the clubs the other players are contracted to with what they believe to be an acceptable offer. If the other clubs are willing to allow their players to leave, the clubs will negotiate over a fee, and the buying club will be given permission to discuss contractual terms with the players. Once a fee is agreed, and the contract is signed, the clubs must submit paperwork to the appropriate authorities in order to register the player for competitions. In some countries, such as the UK, foreign players have to apply for a work permit in order to work there, so that application often becomes part of the transfer process too. – PeeJay 12:36, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

"Football" is a spectrum of various sports
First, let me establish a few things:


 * I'm American, but I hold no patriotic allegiance to the US (in fact, I often hate the US)
 * I'm a linguist, who happens to speak Old English
 * I understand the differences between England, Britain, and the UK; therefore
 * I also understand the differences between the various types of football sports

And that last point is the very point I'm making. "Football" is not a singular sport, but is instead a spectrum of various, related sports.


 * Association Football/Soccer is a type of football
 * Rugby is a type of football
 * American Football is a type of football
 * Australian Rules Football is a type of football
 * Arena Football is a type of football

The British use of the term "football" for AF/S is technically correct, although it is not very accurate, as AF/S is only one type of football. American and Australian use of "soccer" is a more accurate term, as it specifies which type of football is being referred to, but it is less formal, and is not truly universal (I'm trying to honor the Wiki policy of the "World-Wide View").

I feel that Association Football is not only technically correct (especially since "soccer" was originally a slang term of "AF"), but is universally acceptable, as well as the fact that it makes a better title for an encyclopedic article than the somewhat clumsy "Football (soccer)" title did.

Given the dialect or usage in which any page is written, a mere piped link will do well, so that nation-specific pages can be done in their own speech, without appearing awkward.

Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 16:51, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * "Rugby" is two types of football, at least.
 * To be frank, what is your point? The debate regarding the naming of this article has finished, it has been changed. This talkpage is for discussion on how to improve this article. (WP:FOOTY might be a place for affirmation of the current form). I don't mean to be short, simply trying to avoid another year of debate on the naming of this article. Woody (talk) 17:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
 * ...Just as car is a spectrum of different vehicles. So what? Sebisthlm (talk) 17:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "What's my point"? My point, is that for one, I'm seeing very recent dates on the comments about the title of the page (as of my having written this), so I figured I would establish a "final word" about it, which would be as neutral towards both British and American English as possible. Technically both "soccer" and "football" are correct, as they both derive from "Association Football." Americans took the first word, the British took the second word. I figure, just keep it as the original term, and that'll be that.


 * Here in the States, we have various regional slangs for a soft drink. In my region, it's a "soda." Up in the Mid-West, it's a "pop." Both of these are just divided from the more old-fashioned term "soda pop." So when speaking to someone from the Mid-West, I'll actually alter my speech and refer to it as soda pop, so that it'll be as equal as possible— and still correct— to both speakers.


 * Woody, I definitely see your point about putting the naming in the past... I just wanted to establish a neutral "final word" about it, as I'm naturally either a problem-starter, or problem-solver, depending on what situation I observe :)


 * Sebisthlm, would a proper encyclopedia title an article as "Car," or "Automobile"? Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 01:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The "proper" encyclopedia title of the article about car (automobile) is "Automobile", just as the "proper" encyclopedia title of the article about (association) football is "Association football". Now, your point still eludes me (for a linguist you're making remarkably little sense). If your point is to have a "final word" that there are other codes of football than association football it's actually pointed out in the respective introductions of association football, football and football (word). Is there a problem of making this clarification as a "first word" if you will? Sebisthlm (talk) 18:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)


 * All I'm trying to do, is show support for the proper name of the sport being used as the article title. But hey, you should get mad about it and start being hateful towards me :) definitely. Gotta problem with me? Wanna fight about it? Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 04:31, 14 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The rest of the world does not agree with the USA's worldview of sports. Simple as that. This sport aka Football is the body of the beast, rugby and then nationalistic and more obscure sports like american football and aussie rules are merely tentacles of the footballing beast to the overwhelming majority of the world's nations and cultures. "S****r" is in no way a correct term to the vast majority of the world's nations and is generally viewed as a tacky, cheesy slang word.


 * It may seem strange to you that football, as just this sport is correct and the "s word" is not, only because you've been raised in an environment, a train of though, which is entirely alien to the overwhelming majority of the rest of the world's nations and cultures. I strongly believe that this articles correct location is "Football". However, I agree with you that this is the ideal compromise for everybody at the current title; its fair, neutral, in official useage when a term other than simply "Football" (most the time football is the normal useage) is used and is not viewed by anybody as an insult or attack on the sport. - Obrido (talk) 05:04, 14 February 2008 (UTC)




 * Thing of it is, I know perfectly well that the world doesnt revolve around America, which is why I dont ask that this page be titled "soccer." At the same time, the world doesnt revolve around England either, therefore it should not be called simply "Football" either. My reason for that, is the very first thing I posted on here to begin with. Whether Association/Soccer is the central form of it or not, it isnt the only form, therefore it should be specified. That would be like saying that Ford makes vehicles. Passenger cars? Motorcycles? Passenger jets? What kind? Matter of fact, the current page title does indeed refer to it as "Football," but it adds an adjective as well, in order to specify which type is being discussed.


 * Here in the US, American Football is the biggest and most popular sport, by a long shot. Me personally, I could care less for it. But that's just how it is here. Merely making mention of sports using only "my favorite team" automatically conjures a conversation of American Football, whether you specified that as being the sport in question or not. So... soccer, football, they're both covered under "Association football."


 * I'm really not trying to seem imposing... but apparently I cant show support for a neutral term without seeming like a pro-American/anti-English jerk. (c'mon, leave that sort of behavior for the Americans... that's what they do best. Dont tell me that the English are the same way) Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 10:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

football
it should be futbol (soccer) it should be —Preceding unsigned comment added by 20am (talk • contribs) 21:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Care to explain your reasoning for this bold claim? – PeeJay 22:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
 * How about he/she not explain, and we just drop it? This subject has been debated to death. --Michael Johnson (talk) 00:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

POV
I insert tag of POV and limited pertinent introduction in which soccer is claimed most popular sport in the world but a lot of sources claim other sports most popular sport in the world. I added some sources regarding car racing and volleyball considered most popular sports in the world but an editor started edit warring and removed these linked sources.--PIO (talk) 15:00, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your source is someone's personal website, not a WP:reliable source. In addition, the page itself disputes the veracity of the numbers it lists. Oldelpaso (talk) 15:13, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I honour policy and you have no reason for remove tag.--PIO (talk) 15:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * You have already been given the reasons. A personal webiste is not a reliable source and all this was explained to you at the time some weeks ago. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 15:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I reported your abuse!!!! I can insert 20 sources pertinent cue sport, fishing, footing, stretching and other sports considered most popular sport in the world!!!! Shame!!!!--PIO (talk) 15:39, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah, I'm a big stretching fan! Can't wait for the World cup in the summer, gonna take all of June off... Sebisthlm (talk) 19:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, you have good enjoyable stretching!!!! All you read this source: in section Australian Rugby Union they assert The 2003 Rugby World Cup was the fourth largest sporting event in the world behind the Olympics, Soccer World Cup and the World Athletics Championships. Olympics is most followed sporting event in the world!!!! In article FIFA's source is lier of propaganda!!!! I can show many sources pertinent various sports considered most popular sports in the world.--PIO (talk) 12:08, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Olympic Games isn't a sport - it's an event that takes place every 2/4 years. (as indeed are the other events listed in your last statement.) The quote in question relates to "most popular sport in the world", which is a completely different discussion altogether. - fchd (talk) 12:41, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * The Olympics are a variety of sports, not just one in particular. The FIFA World Cup IS the most watched SINGLE-SPORT event in the world, and that CAN be verified using that same article. Wildthing61476 (talk) 13:47, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course: olympics are different sports and it's event n.1 by popularity then in article statement linked with FIFA is a lier or cazzata in Italian language!!!! The basketball world cup is maybe the most followed single-sport event in the world.--PIO (talk) 14:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Your opinions are clouded by bias. Basketball is nowhere near as popular as football on a worldwide scale, no matter which way you look at it. Anyway, if FIFA was really lying about this, they wouldn't have been allowed to publish the statement. – PeeJay 14:28, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Read this article here from Bloomberg.com regarding the 2006 World Cup Final. I don't think the Basketball World Cup draws that many viewers. Wildthing61476 (talk) 14:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of sites reporting stats but television's audience is not scientifically valid!!!! All you can read my opinion.--PIO (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * PIO, non dire stronzate. Everybody knows that Football are the most popular in the world following by Rugby. In the basket Argentina have the golden medal and Brazil won the panamerican games and in these countries nobody cares about basket. And these countries are in the top of the basket. In Italy the only city that people support basket is Bologna but much less than football. --Santista1982 --89.101.92.76 (talk) 00:35, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is the parable that I think sums up why association football is the most popular sport in the world. There are a group of men sitting in a bar in anytown, The first is a Australian Aussie rules fan, the second an Irish GAA fan, both have international rules in common and begin talking about it until an Argentinian rugby union fans joins them and admits to knowing nothing about international rules so the three converse about rugby, a sport popular in all their homelands. This continues to work well even when a New Zealand cricket fan joins them, though his Indian Kabadi loving friend feels a bit left out at this point, As does the Croat basketball fan who has entered the bar with his friends, a Venezuelan Baseball fan, a Norwegian Ice hockey fan, an Ethiopian athletics fan and a Japanese gridiron football fan. The conversations about sports change all evening with various members of the group coming in and dropping out as sports they are familiar or unfamiliar with are discussed until finally The Barman mentions association football and for the first time every single one of the people has a common sport that they can all discuss. And that is why it is the most popular game on earth. Now if you know of several nationalities who are stretching fans then I suppose it blows this out of the water but I have to confess that on my travels around the world I have never seen any country come to a standstill for a stretching event. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.101.27.188 (talk) 22:19, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Cute, but two problems. Firstly all this proves is that soccer is the best known sport, not the most popular. Few if any of those at the bar seem to be really interested in it. Secondly I doubt the average Aussie rules fan has much to say about soccer, even in mixed company. And anyway off topic. --Michael Johnson (talk) 22:34, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Britain
I'm going to re-write 'Codified in England' to 'Codified in Britain' as Britain, or the United Kingdom is the correct name for the soverign nation state where the game's laws were created. Simply writing England is misleading and inaccurate, as more people know the location of 'Britain' globally, than 'England'. Please state whether you agree or disagree. Thanks W2ch00 (talk) 23:50, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The number of people who know the location of "Britain" globally than "England" has nothing to do with what should be used. What should be used is the location regardless of the number of people who know that location. I have no idea where the rules were codified, however if it was in England then it is neither misleading nor inaccurate, but correct and accurate to state England the same way it would be if it is Wales, Scotland or wherever. ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 23:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)


 * The arguments over geography are irrelevant. The "modern game" was codified in England by the Football Association, which governs football in England. The Scottish Football Association wasn't formed until 1873. Camillus (talk) 00:15, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * It was codified in England. This change is completely unnecessary. It's the exact same thing as saying "Basketball was invented in Massachusetts", there would be no reason to change it to New England (Britain) or United States (United Kingdom). Please provide a compelling reason for this change. Your explanation is completely original research and opinion and nothing to do with anything anyway as Tangerines just stated. LonelyMarble (talk) 00:16, 30 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Whilst I am not suggesting that this edit has been done to make a point, it does cause some concern when looking at the edit history of the above user to find edit summaries such as, "UK not fucking england" and "Reverting stupid edit which changed the union flag to the st. george cross". And also a request on the talk page to stop replacing references to England with links to the UK as well as a list on the user page of things opposed which includes Scottish and Welsh Independence and Devolution in the United Kingdom, as well as  "Loads of other nasty stuff".  ♦Tangerines♦ · Talk 00:37, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Altitude ban
I added a paragraph regarding FIFA's altitude ban, since it is a very polemic regulation affecting the practice of the sport for millions of people in several countries, including but not limited to: Bolivia, Peru, Ecuador and Colombia. Is very polemic for the fact that changes the concept (cited in the article) of a fair, equal and universal sport. Also, this regulation sets precedence to ban the practice of the sport in different conditions, as I wrote, which doesn't happen in other major sports. Thousands of people, the COMEBOL and many state presidents have tried to reverse this unfair ruling. Is one of the points cited in the Wiki article about FIFA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIFA, and added to accusations of corruption from the current president, Sepp Blatter (also documented in the wiki). It was covered in media (tv, newspapers) in many countries, and there are several groups involving thousands of people actively trying to reverse completely this mistake. So, yes, I think is important to have a paragraph on this page.--izelpii
 * Erm, FIFA hasn't banned all football at high altitude, just full international games. You can still play football on the streets of La Paz without Sepp Blatter trying to destroy you, so football is still just as universal as it was. – PeeJay 17:33, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Although you can still play soccer in the streets, this affects the professional practice of the sport, which is actually a very important part about about it. There is no parallel regulation in any major sport similar to this one, and will never be, since this regulation is just the result of corruption and interest of some clubs not to play in this cities. In any case, I agree that the typical minor regulation may not be worth in this article, but I strongly believe that this is not the case with this one, because the main issue in dispute is 'soccer as a universal sport' and the FIFA motto 'for the world', which I believe is in conflict with the ruling. How would anyone feel, if the professional practice of their favorite sport is prohibited in their city? Again, this doesn't affect my neighbor and my friends, this affects many countries and millions of people. --izelpii
 * You can still play football on the streets of La Paz without Sepp Blatter trying to destroy you - I wouldn't put it past him... ;D ← chandler 17:51, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I don't think the subject is something suited to the article about the sport itself. Unfortunately Football in South America, Football in Bolivia and Football in Peru are all redlinks, but if any of them were created, coverage of the altitude issue would be well suited for inclusion. CONMEBOL perhaps? Oldelpaso (talk) 18:02, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * This is because this countries speak Spanish, so you can find this articles in the language they speak, pages like: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liga_de_F%C3%BAtbol_Profesional_Boliviano. This is also covered in FIFA, but I think regulation affects the global image of soccer as a universal sport, and is worth mentioning. Not sure if I'm reading between lines, and you are asking for popular support, I believe that a post in some forums can bring popular support to include this.. let me know if this is what you think is needed --izelpii
 * Mention in FIFA is sufficient. This article should read as an introduction to the game of football, its rules and origins. The altitude issue is far too specific for Association football, but appropriate in other articles. I certain don't want any canvassing. Oldelpaso (talk) 20:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Actually, there is a section of regulations of the sport, which should include this, since is not only part of the ruling of the sport, but also, very controversial. I know a lot of people don't know about this ruling, because it doesn't affect them, but what I'm asking if for fairness, and since this affects the practice of the sport in my country, I believe it should be included here. As a test of fairness, I ask you to think if it wouldn't be worth mentioning this, if the rule affected Italy, or Brazil, and the professional practice of soccer was denied in that countries? --izelpii —Preceding unsigned comment added by 32.97.110.142 (talk) 21:06, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I agree this should be included in this article. As an interesting tidbit that many people aren't aware of, it seems that the fact that it is codified would be at least worth a mention, if brief. 24.96.104.14 (talk) 09:09, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Soccer is just an Americanism
Football should not be side by side with soccer. USA is in RED in the map showing the popularity of football in the world. Why should then an Americanism be equal to a term accepted by million of football fans in the world? The term soccer should be removed from the first paragraph and mentioned at the end of the article as an americanism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.204.190.10 (talk) 20:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I live in Australia and we call it soccer here too. As does New Zealand. In Australia, we call Australian rules football by the name of "football". So it is not just an Americanism. See Football (word) if you have an issue with this. --Rulesfan (talk) 06:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
 * Don't feed the trolls. – PeeJay 06:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Soccer was originally a British word. It was 19th century slang for association football as opposed to "rugger" for rugby football. I'm glad the article is now called Association Football, and hope it stays that way. It is the most consistent title. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 16:58, 11 May 2008 (UTC)


 * I agree with the first post. The word "football" should be superior to "soccer". The founders of football call it football, and so do the rest of the countries that engage in football.. --16:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)Lindberg47 (talk)

"Association" football
I dare bet that very few ("association") football fans know that the sport they follow is called "association football". That's a term that went out of use almost a century ago. I can see the reason why wikipedia has adopted it, to distinguish it from other kinds of football, but it really does seem very odd. --Kvaks (talk) 12:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
 * It may seem odd, but it is the official name and I have heard it spoken more and more recently. See Archive 13, Archive 14, Archive 15, Archive 16 and Archive 17 for the myriad of discussion on this issue. Woody (talk) 12:08, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why the Association needs to be mentioned in the title. I think the standard disambiguation title as per other Wikipedia articles be something like Football (soccer). --Arctic Gnome (talk • contribs) 17:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
 * But to disambiguate like that would imply that "football" is a type of "soccer", which makes no sense. – PeeJay 18:04, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

i am an englishman and i have never heard the term association football being used in actual conversation....


 * Yet it remains the official name, and the best compromise for a name for this article. --Michael Johnson (talk) 22:49, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I dare say that anyone who doesn't know it is called Association Football is either a) Very young b) Is not a native English speaker or c) Doesn't really like the game. It's name is Association Football, always has been and always will be. Hence I am glad Wikipedia has got it right and changed this article name to the correct one. Cls14 (talk) 20:00, 16 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but that is a ridiculously unreasonable comment. Regardless of the official name of this article or sport, I'm confident that the majority of people would not know the game as anything but 'football' or 'soccer'. Trixxy (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * However, neither football nor soccer are feasible as names for the article, and football (soccer) is unintuitive. Association football is the only feasible option. Can we drop this now? – PeeJay 21:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
 * That is true but the fact remains, it wont be moved to "football" even if that's the most common name through out the world, english-speaking or not. Just because there are other sports who are called football. football (soccer) is as peejay said " that would imply that "football" is a type of "soccer""... The only two options i see is Association football and Football (sport) &mdash; chandler &mdash; 21:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)


 * I've only ever found one person refer to the sport as Association football, and then it's used with disdain. My personal view would be that this should be treated in a similar way to lawn tennis. Now that is slightly different, as it is still known in some circles as lawn tennis (For instance, in the UK, it is governed by the Lawn Tennis Association; to compare with 'association' football, and pick England's governing body, The Football Association, not once does their website refer to it as 'association football', as far as I can see). Even FIFA's own mission reads, "The Fédération Internationale de Football Association (FIFA) is an association governed by Swiss law founded in 1904 and based in Zurich. It has 208 member associations and its goal, enshrined in its Statutes, is the constant improvement of football.".
 * Now, from how I see it, this would leave the only place for the article being Football (sport), with a disambiguation line, in a similar manner to that used on Tennis. -- Ratarsed (talk) 12:28, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * And how does Football (sport) disambiguate it from other forms of football, e.g. American football, Canadian football, Australian Rules foobtall or rugby football? As PeeJay said, can we please drop this? Peanut4 (talk) 19:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Football (sport is the WP:COMMONNAME; which could link to Football (disambiguation). Looking at the backlinks to Football shows that there is a lot of links linking there when they mean this article. I also noticed that when this article was deemed high enough quality to be featured, it was as Football (soccer) -- Ratarsed (talk) 15:54, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Seriously, how the heck does Football (sport) make the slightest bit of sense? How does it serve as disambiguation from the other sports known as "football"?  I don't understand this argument at all.
 * Also note that "football" is a common name for most of the sports in question. For example, here in the United States, we don't commonly refer to American football by that name; we call it "football."  (The term "football" also commonly refers to Australian rules football and Canadian football in their respective countries of origin.)  For the purposes of disambiguation, the title Association football is entirely consistent.
 * Football (soccer) was a horrible "compromise" designed to ensure that no one "won" the naming dispute, and the fact that the article was featured under that title is irrelevant. —David Levy 17:55, 21 June 2008 (UTC)