Talk:Auguste Ambroise Tardieu

Rating
I changed the rating of this article from Stub- to Start-Class, even though I have contributed most of the work here. If anyone disagrees please just change it back. —Aetheling (talk) 21:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I have just raised the rating of this article from Start-Class to C-Class. Given the dramatic nature of Tardieu's famous court cases, the main lack here is an account of at least one of them. Also, we could use more on his many contributions to forensic science. Then maybe we can achieve B-Class. —Aetheling (talk) 23:10, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

French Document online

 * Etude médico-légale sur les sévices et mauvais traitements exercés sur des enfants, Par le Dr Ambroise Tardieu - Annales d'hygiène publique et de médecine légale. - 1860: Pages 361-398 (french)
 * Austerlitz -- 88.72.0.25 (talk) 16:45, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

His book Étude médico-légale sur les attentats aux moeurs.
The article says: "Among his many achievements, Tardieu wrote what may be the first book in recorded history on the sexual abuse of children. (Masson, 1984, pp. 15-19 and 34-38). It ran to six editions, from 1857 to 1878, under the title "Medical-Legal Studies of Sexual Assault" (Etude Médico-Légale sur les Attentats aux Mœurs)."

According to Masson the title of the book translated into English means "A Medico-legal Study of Assaults on Decency" (p. 22). Where does the title "Medical-Legal Studies of Sexual Assault" derive from? Until now I don't know whether there has ever been an english translation of that first edition or the following six later editions. Masson mentions that the book has never been quoted in the psychoanalytic or psychiatric literature.

In note no.8 to chapter 2. Freud at the Paris Morgue Masson writes: "The book went through seven editions: 1857, 1858, 1859, 1862, 1867, 1873, and 1878. The first edition contained 176 pages; the last, 296 pages. There was a German translation of the third edition, Die Vergehen gegen die Sittlichkeit in staatsärztlicher Beziehung, translated by W. Thiele (Weimar: Voigt, 1860), which was widely cited in the German literature and clearly influenced Krafft-Ebing." Seems as if that has been the only translation until now. Is this possible?

Some more of the information should be added to the article, I'm going to add two minor facts.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.70.4 (talk) 13:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Thanks for your extensive help with this article! With respect to the title, I translated it myself, in consultation with a bilingual editor. The literal translation of les attentats aux moeurs is, just as you say, assaults on decency. But that phrase was merely a Victorian-era French euphemism for rape. I elected to use sexual assault as the closest modern forensic term for the criminal act that Tardieu was describing. Incidentally, I believe there is also a Spanish translation of this article, which I have been trying to obtain (I speak both German and Spanish, but not, alas, French). —Aetheling (talk) 15:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Okay. Don't you want to add this to the article? or do you prefer just to delete the translation done by Masson?
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.90 (talk) 15:57, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Different editions
Until now I have not been able to find out the title of the third edition (must have been 1859), which has been translated into German. Additionally, I cannot bring together the years named by Masson and the six editions on the list of the article.
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.90 (talk) 14:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

So, here is the information referring to German Translation
 * A. TARDIEU, Étude médico-légale sur les attentats aux mœurs, Paris, Baillière, 1873 (6e éd., 1re éd. 1857). Traduit en allemand sous le titre Die Vergehen gegen die Sittlichkeit in staatsärztlicher Beziehung, transposé en allemand d’après la troisième édition française par Fr. Wilhem Theile, Weimar, Bernhard Friedrich Voigt, 1860.

Also I don't know whether the titles of the editions changed or not. (Per chance I've read that half of the book is on homosexuality.)
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.90 (talk) 14:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

 The French title has always been the same, from first edition to last one. I wonder where all those titles on the Works' list come from.
 * Austerlitz -- 83.236.65.90 (talk) 08:23, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Another text online

 * 
 * Austerlitz -- 88.75.194.90 (talk) 15:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Most probably there one can find more.

http://www.bium.univ-paris5.fr/histmed/medica.htm
 * Austerlitz -- 83.236.65.90 (talk) 08:27, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

Misrepresentation
This article seems to rely way too heavily on Masson's book The assault on Truth, which is probably why it gives a distorted image of Tardieus's work. I don't know Masson's book first hand but I have the impression that he has a different agenda from giving a fair representation of Tardieu. I have read big parts of Tardieu's book, and it is not a book about sexual assault on children. The book has three parts: 1) On indecent exposure 2) on rape 3) on homosexuality. Indeed, the book is most often evoked as a precursor to later medical studies of homosexuality, most importantly Krafft-Ebing's Psychopathia sexualis. Animus00 (talk) 13:01, 23 July 2014 (UTC)