Talk:Aurel Stein

Untitled
Googling for "Mark Aurel Stein" and "Marc Aurel Stein" seems to indicate a pretty even split once one has discounted the Wiki-derivative sites. UK sites seem to prefer Mark with a k so is this an Anglo-Hungarian spelling difference or did he change his name at some stage? Has anyone got some of his books to indicate what name he went by? adamsan 11:50, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Marc v. Mark
The back cover of my Dover copy of "Ruins of Desert Cathay" spells his name "Mark". However, the British Library website for its current Silk Road exhibition spells his name "Marc". Confusingly, the BL catalogue listings for his book offer up both "Mark" and "Marc". I'd say "Marc" would be the best for now, since the BL has it twice, but I have not been able to find any record of Stein writing his own name any other way than "M. Aurel Stein". --Radulfus 14:40, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Anybody else wondering about RL Stein? The author of the Goosebumps series.


 * My copy of 'On Alexander's Track to the Indus' has 'Marc' with a C. I would also like to ask if it wouldn't be a good idea to go ahead and fix up the bibliography to get the name right - it's Stein, Aurel M. now, which is flatly wrong.  I'd also like to add a note pointing out that "Marc Aurel" is his entire first name, and plain "Stein" his last - as in "Marcus Aurelius". Hit me on my Talk page if you have comments. KASchmidt 20:01, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

The following is what a few of the libraries involved have decided: based on these, I'd vote for just "Aurel Stein", myself, and set up the authority record to forward all other variants to this -- prevents cross-referencing confusion, when users want to go from Wikipedia to Oxford/OLIS, say, or to any of the other libraries.

The British -- Oxford, anyway -- appear to have skipped over the Marc/Mark problem, deciding instead upon "Sir Aurel", and the French and the Americans probably just followed that. Looks like the BL simply has inter-filed everything, calling theirs an "integrated catalogue" now, relying on book title pages for their entries, probably: no idea how their authority pages work as they don't show those -- i.e. how to find all Stein entries, now?... The Hungarians, which Stein was by birth, drop Marc/Mark too, but they add an accent to Aurél: I had a Hungarian grandfather who used the "k" for his name, "Markus" -- but over there names & spellings tend to get mixed around a lot, for political & nationalist & many other reasons.

Library entries:


 * Oxford/OLIS [] : "Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943"
 * Stein, Marc (1)
 * Stein, Marc Aurel, sir (6)
 * Stein, Marc Aurel sir (Pre20 Author) (11)
 * Stein, Marcus Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943 (0)
 * [See] Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943 (71)
 * Stein, Mark Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943 (0)
 * [See] Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943 (71)


 * British Library [] : dunno... can't reach their authority records...
 * Stein Aurel     125
 * Stein Aurel Marc 53
 * Stein Aurel Mark 53
 * Stein Marc      118
 * Stein Mark       24
 * Stein M. Aurel    5
 * Stein M.        167 (including lots who never have seen Khotan)


 * Bibliotheque nationale de France/OPALE [] : "Stein, Aurel (1862-1943)"
 * 1   Stein, Aurel
 * 1   Stein, Aurel
 * 16   Stein, Aurel (1862-1943)
 * 1   Stein, Aurel (Sir)
 * 1   Stein, M.A.
 * 2   Stein, Marc
 * 2   Stein, Marc Aurel (Sir)


 * University of California/Melvyl [] : "Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943"
 * 999   Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943
 * 2   Stein, M. A., 1862-1943.
 * Stein, M. A. (Mark Aurel), Sir, 1862-1943 - [more terms]
 * See: Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943
 * Stein, M. Aurel (Mark Aurel), Sir, 1862-1943 - [more terms]
 * See: Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943


 * National library of Hungary / OSZK Katalógus Amicus [] : "Stein, Aurél (1862-1943)"
 * Stein, M. Aurél
 * Stein, M. A.
 * Stein, Aurél (1862-1943)
 * Stein, A. M.
 * Stein, Mark Aurel


 * Library of Congress Online Catalog [] : "Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943"
 * 68 Stein, Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943
 * 0 Stein, M. A. (Mark Aurel), Sir, 1862-1943
 * 0 Stein, M. Aurel (Mark Aurel), Sir, 1862-1943
 * 1 Stein, Mark Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943.  personal name
 * 5 Stein, Mark Aurel, Sir, 1862-1943, [from old catalog]  personal name
 * 3 Stein, Mark Aurel, Sir, 1862- [from old catalog]


 * I'm amenable to that, as long as we can get a note put somewhere prominent that explains the issue. I've found that quite a few libraries and bookstores have a problem with it, and a warning would be especially useful for casual readers and first-timers who might otherwise be put off. KASchmidt 00:48, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

OK Here's a suggestion for the note, then:

Aurel Stein

(Note: per library practice at inter alia Oxford/OLIS, BnFrance/Opale, UC/Melvyl, Nat.Lib.Hungary/OSZK Katalógus Amicus, Library of Congress -- see variants in Stein's name at [Wikipedia authorities / forwarding page address])

-- I'll set this up, if there's agreement here?

--Kessler 17:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

SECOND PARAGRAPH
The text has no direct or connected, specific relevance to the subject, Aurel Stein. Could the author connect it to Stein or remove it? Also I'm not sure what is meant by "not consensual on that the . . ." means. : "Palaeolinguistic research is probably consensual on that the languages of the Tarim Basin originated in an extension of the Indo-Europeans that probably separated ca4000 BCE from their homeland and might have reached the Tarim Basin sometime after ca2000 BCE. These languages, which are far from identical, are now generally called Turfan and Kuchan. Tokharians or Tocharians is the Greek for probable Indo-Iranians who also separated from the Indo-European homeland (north of the Caucasus) and migrated east as far as Lake Balkash and Gansu. Subsequently (after the 4th century BCE), these Indo-Iranians, known to the Chinese as Yuezhi and as Wu Sun, were driven westwards by the Altaic Xiongnu (either Mongols or Turks). These are the Greek Tokharians, whose language is not known, and who moved in the direction of Transoxiana and south into Bactria (northern Afghanistan), but not likely to the Tarim Basin." Doc Rock 12:02, 31 August 2006

JEWISH
The original described Stein as a "Jewish archaeologist" which is inaccurate. Stein had converted to Christianity. He was therefore of "Jewish descent." Thus corrected. --Iwanafish 16:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Assertion out of nowhere
"he continues to be considered a great burglar and condemned to this day in China for the removal of countless priceless artifacts from the caves and serious damages caused to the sites."

This needs to be explained in further detail if it is to remain in the article. What is the evidence that Stein caused the damage and not the Chinese themselves? Do the Chinese demand the return of the manuscripts? I have never heard of this. If not, what makes Stein a "burglar"? Shii (tock) 19:14, 2 February 2014 (UTC)


 * The charges that Stein was a thief are neither new nor rare. Google "Stein thief China" and you'll get many, many documents on this subject.  Here's the opening line of one academic study, "On December 27, 1930, the Tianjin press boldly branded one of the world’s foremost archaeologists an insatiable “thief” for the frst time and demanded his immediate expulsion from the country."  Hundreds more references could be found on this subject.


 * The facts are pretty straight forward. By deception and bribery, Stein acquired a vast number of ancient Buddhist manuscripts, loaded them on his camels, hauled them away, and was honored by the British for doing so.  The Chinese consider that thievery.  So do a lot of other people.  To leave this incident out of the article about Aurel Stein would be like leaving slavery out of an article about Jefferson Davis.  Smallchief (talk  12:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * More detail is needed than what is found in the article Shii (tock) 19:13, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * It appears you have shortened the article rather than adding the detail that you believe it needs. I'll see what I can do about fixing it.  I think the Stein article needs a whole section on the controversy surrounding Stein's "acquisition" -- to put it in neutral terms -- of the Buddhist documents. The article also needs more information about Stein's "disastrous fourth expedition" -- the reasons of which are not explained in the present text. Smallchief (talk  22:40, 3 February 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree, and just to reiterate I don't necessarily want the Chinese opinion of him removed from the article, but explained in a level of detail so that readers know who is doing the critique and on what basis. Shii (tock) 17:30, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * This BBC article, which discusses Stein's reputation in China as a "ruthless raider", is worth referencing. The last couple of paragraphs also raise the possibility China requesting the repatriation of the Stein collection. BabelStone (talk) 20:16, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
 * As you can see this article is quite vague. It talks about unnamed "Chinese academics" and an unsigned editorial in the Worker's Daily, but the curator of the artifacts says "We have had a close working relationship with China and Stein's collections in London has never been an issue. It just doesn't come up." I prefer the academic reference which supplies greater detail. Shii (tock) 20:36, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

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