Talk:Azimut Hotel Murmansk

Untitled
This is odd, but I have some sources saying it's 18 stories, and some saying it's 16 stories. Don't know what to think about that. Going with 18, since the Kola Encyclopedia says so. Also not sure of the name -- will it retain its name or be renamed the Hotel Murmanks? Sources differ. We'll have to see what happens when it reopens. Until then, it's the Hotel Arctic, I guess. Herostratus (talk) 04:55, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
 * On consideration, I'm not confident that I can say it has either 16 or 18 floors, so I just left out all mention of how many floors it has.

Tallest building north of the Arctic Circle
I'm confident that this is indeed the tallest building north of the Arctic Circle.

To define our terms, from List of tallest buildings and structures in the world: "The Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, an organization that certifies buildings as the 'World’s Tallest', recognizes a building only if at least fifty percent of its height is made up of floor plates containing habitable floor area. Structures that do not meet this criterion, such as the CN Tower, are defined as 'towers'". This definition is generally used by Wikipedia for most of our articles. So for the purpose of determining a tallest building, radio masts are definitely not "buildings" and some towers like the Eiffel Tower are definitely not "buildings". Some other towers and also churches with tall steeples are possibly "buildings", but generally not considered to be, either on Wikipedia or elsewhere, although arguments arise.

OK moving on.
 * This (it's in Russian) is from TV 21, which I gather is TV station in Murmansk. The title is "Hotel 'Arctic.' An icon of Murmansk. The tallest building in the Arctic Circle." There is no mention of the matter beyond the bare fact stated in the title.
 * This (it's in English, and is a PDF) is a PowerPoint presentation given at a conference. On page 35 there is a bullet point "Tallest building north of the Arctic Circle", and that's it. It's not WP:RS by our standards, I don't think, so I've moved it to the "External links" section.

There is this (in Russian) which is an official government publication. But all it says is that it's the tallest building on the Kola Penninsula.

Looking at Arctic Circle, it's clear that Murmansk is the largest city north of it, by a very large margin. It's not credibly possible that there'd be taller commercial structure in North America, and very very unlikely that there'd be one in Eurasia. Norilsk, Vorkuta, and Tromsø are much smaller than Murmansk and it'd be insane for them to have a commercial structure taller than 16 stories. (Not talking about a mine crane or something but an actual building with occupied floors.) And I'm confident that they don't; if they did it would be mentioned in their articles, or somewhere.

It also seems not credible that there'd be a government or military building that tall north of the Circle. (Remember, not talking about radar towers etc. but actual buildings with occupied floors.) There is no reason for such an entity to exist, that I can possibly imagine. An airfield control tower would be the only possibility, I guess, but I can't imagine building one that tall that for north for any reason. It'd be huge construction project in the middle of frozen nowhere, and why? (And anyway it's almost certainly true that such a structure would be a "tower" and not a "building".)

Ditto a church steeple. Probably not a "building" for our purposes anyway, and it's not credible that one taller than a 16-story building exists north of the Circle. If there was one it'd be a wonder and there'd be some evidence of its existence on the web.

So to summarize:
 * There is one ref saying it is the tallest structure. It is a TV station which TV stations are considered reasonably reliable for local facts. But all they do is mention the fact in a title; there's no supporting material.
 * There is one other source saying it is the tallest structure. It's not reliable source and is only an external link. (It's not horribly unreliable and is probably accurate in my opinion.) Again, it gives just the bare statement with no supporting evidence.
 * But common sense tells me that it's not credibly possible that there'd be a taller building.
 * And there's no evidence that there is a taller buildinge, not on Google or anywhere I can find.

So I'm good with stating that it's the tallest building north of the Arctic Circle and that the ref is good enough to support this. Herostratus (talk) 19:10, 22 October 2011 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure why you make your life so difficult: This is a fairly comprehensive article, and a Google search for Самое высокое здание за Полярным кругом reveals hundreds of sources that claim the same fact. Seen in this light, I would advise to put a second source, or replace the existing one.
 * There is another problem with the number of rooms: Reference 3 says that one third of Murmansk's accommodation capacity is covered by the Arctic, not two. My ref cited above mentions 635 rooms before renovation. I did not find the 1,030 number in the ref. Can this be reconciled? --Pgallert (talk) 07:44, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Well boy howdy, don't know how I missed those, thanks. Yes, regarding the number of rooms, I don't have confidence in either number, so I removed all reference to how many rooms it has (or had). Herostratus (talk) 09:41, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Your source says "16-ти этажное здание с 1030-ю местами в комфортабельных номерах", that's according to my translation "[..] 1,030 beds in comfortable rooms" (emphasis mine, literally место = place). This does not seem to contradict this source. IMO, the statement should go back in, but this is independent of the DYK evaluation. Cheers, Pgallert (talk) 12:23, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

OK, so now that we're confident of this ... just how tall is it, exactly? The article doesn't say. Daniel Case (talk) 03:18, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Don't know. Don't even know how many stories it has, see above. As to the rooms/beds thing, I think the editor is correct, I was probably extrapolating from American use where we always say rooms and not beds. 1,030 seems an unlikely high number of rooms for an 18-story (or maybe 16 stories, and now I found another source that says 17) hotel. Even if only 16 stories and subtracting two for the lobby and other use, we have 64 rooms per floor which seems a lot. I'll look into it some more presently. Herostratus (talk) 14:27, 4 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Hospital of Oganer (ru:File:Oganerbol.jpg) probably the second-tallest building north of the Arctic Circle. The building Arktika height of 72 meters. http://www.mbnews.ru/content/view/9232/85/ --Insider (talk) 14:56, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

Hyphen
Regarding high-rise, please see Wikipedia:ENDASH#Hyphens, I think "high-rise" is correct. See no. 3 (To link related terms in compound modifiers) and English_compound#Hyphenated_compound_adjectives Best, KennethSides (talk) 12:12, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, you're right, my bad, I had had "use endashes not hyphens" drilled into me so that I thought we never used hyphens. Corrected. Herostratus (talk) 14:22, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120330224937/http://www.istikon.ru/news/detail.php?ID=91156 to http://www.istikon.ru/news/detail.php?ID=91156
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20120425083050/http://www.russia-cisconference.com/images/uploads/27Oct_InvestmentDen(1).pdf to http://www.russia-cisconference.com/images/uploads/27Oct_InvestmentDen%281%29.pdf

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