Talk:Babylon 5 influences

Hegel
Somebody familiar with Hegel's philosophy of history may want to make an addition to this page. The notion of "we are the universe trying to figure itself out", and all the references to the universe as sentient, and the idea of it having a direction bares a striking resemblance to Hegel's ides about the development of spirit (geist) through the man. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.82.94.58 (talk) 03:14, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Elric
IIRC the Technomage that warned about being "quick to anger" was named Elric, an obvious reference to Michael Moorcock's character. Sorry, I can't confirm it right now. Luis Dantas 12:14, 11 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Yes, he was indeed named Elric. Ausir 20:23, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Lensmen
I think that Lensmen should be listed among the main infuences. The entire over-arcing plot of the series is lensmen twisted around on its head. -- --DysgraphicProgrammer 5 July 2005 03:19 (UTC)

The Lensman books are indeed a major influence on B5: Troy Baer 01:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
 * The actions and motivations of the Vorlons and Shadows closely mirror those of Lensman's Arisians and Eddorians.
 * The Vorlons are implied to have influenced the evolution of some of the younger races, as are Lensman's Arisians.
 * The First Ones (including the Vorlons and Shadows) eventually remove themselves from the galaxy when the younger races have advanced sufficiently, as do Lensman's Arisians.
 * The Interstellar Alliance's role as keepers of the peace mirrors that of Lensman's Galactic Patrol.
 * The use of "planet-killers" by the Shadows and Vorlons in Babylon 5 mirrors that of both the Boskone and the Galactic Patrol (free planets, negaspheres, the sunbeam, etc.).
 * Marcus Cole's home world is Arisia 3, an obvious reference to Lensman's Arisians.

Star Trek examples
It seems almost automatic to suggest that any science fiction from the 80's on draws at least some influence from Star Trek, but I'm having a hard time coming up with examples. Given JMS's feelings towards B5/Trek comparisons, are there actual occurances in B5 that one could point to as being Trek-influenced? --Mattmcc 07:42, 1 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Some say the Season 1 episode Believers fills the bill. Reply to David Latapie 21:18, 15 September 2005 (UTC)
 * That JMS engaged three Original Trek writers - Harlan Ellison, DC Fontana and David Gerrold - speaks volumes for Trek's influence on JMS. That said, not so sure about a direct influence - B5 is more of a reaction against Trek. Joe King 22:39, 2 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ellison wrote one episode of TOS, and it was pretty heavily rewritten and they refused the Cordwainer Bird credit he insists on when his work is tampered with, he was engaged because he is a writer of science-fiction/speculative-fiction/etc of long standing and has been friends with JMS since the 1980s. LamontCranston 21:54, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Christianity
Moreover, the monks led by Brother Theo may not be explicitly Christian, but certainly seem based on Christian monastic orders

In the episode "Passing through Gethsemane," Brother Edward refers to the last supper and crucifixion as the core of his religion when discussing it with Delenn and Lennier. Wouldn't this be "explicitly Christian" or would the order be more multi-faith, considering it's seeking of all of the names of god? Geminidomino 10:27, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Didn't Sinclair mention a couple of times that he had been educated by Jesuits? It was when Delenn mentioned something that came from Valen, and Sinclair said he was familiar with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.46.41 (talk) 13:44, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Structuring this article
While there's a lot of good stuff in this article, the whole thing is, quite frankly, a complete mess. I've reorganised the topics, but haven't made any changes to the content of the text (yet!) in order to at least group them under a set of high level themes. Joe King 20:22, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

"although arguably the appearance of Kosh in the guise of a Christian angel was intentionally subversive." If I remember correctly, Kosh's appearance was specific to each individual; everyone saw him as their own messiah figure for their particular belief. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 131.204.201.137 (talk • contribs) 06:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Jung
There should be a mention of Jung (Carl Gustav Jung, the psychologist). Most obviously, The Shadows just scream Jungian shadows - I'm pretty sure JMS admitted to referencing the idea. Also, one of the unofficial Babylon 5 guidebooks had a big essay on trying to find parallels between Jungian psychology and B5. (Forget the name of the guide...The Babylon Files? There were two volumes, one for seasons 1-3 and one updated after 4 and 5.  The essay is in the first volume). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.159.75.107 (talk • contribs) 09:45, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Tolkien Allusions
"Tolkien's Narn i Hîn Húrin in The Silmarillion". This is in error. The Narn i Hin Hurin was actually in Unfinished Tales by JRR Tolkien. It was a much-extended version of a short summary Tolkien wrote which eventually appeared in the finished Silmarillion, but the story of that name only appears in Unfinished Tales and nowhere else.--82.22.43.147 21:14, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Another point that isnt touched upon in the current article when exploring the parallels with the Lord of the Rings and Babylon 5 is the mirroring of the cleansing of the shire with the Earth civil war arc.

X-men
The Centauri crest bears a striking resemblance to that of the Shi'Ar of X-men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.180.207.156 (talk) 19:35, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Star Trek
Removed entire section dealing with Star Trek.


 * Although Babylon 5 may have been influenced by Star Trek in a pure sci-fi sense, the section in the article did not articulate how Star Trek may have influenced B5.
 * Section made a serious charge, without citation of evidence, of Paramount stealing the entire concept of Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch. There is controversy and there are accusations, but this section made no effort to prove or cite a resource indicating that Paramount did, in fact, steal Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch.
 * Section made the absurd implication that Paramount got the idea for Vulcans from the Minbari species on Babylon 5, even though Vulcans were a species on Star Trek twenty-seven years prior to Babylon 5 being written. It didn't make this accusation in so many words, but implied it by citing the similarity as "striking" one sentence after accusing Paramount of stealing the idea of Babylon 5.
 * Section made the same absurd implication about Romulans.
 * Last paragraph of section concerning the Romulan enslavement of Klingons is entirely baseless and made up.

Section was full of misinformation without citation. Fknight 23:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The Deep Space Nine x Babylon 5 polemic
Useful links with plenty of material

Section made a serious charge, without citation of evidence, of Paramount stealing the entire concept of Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch. There is controversy and there are accusations, but this section made no effort to prove or cite a resource indicating that Paramount did, in fact, steal Deep Space Nine from the Babylon 5 series pitch.

The available evidence, formed by messages posted by Straczynski himself, ( links are posted right below) suggests that there was indeed some kind of "poaching" of the original pitch of B5.

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7652&query=shapechanger

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13041&query=berman

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7427&query=DS9%20is%20a%20good%20show%20our%20show

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15244&query=DS9%20is%20a%20good%20show%20our%20show

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-5509&query=by%20stealing

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3377&query=their%20show

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7864&query=Actually,%20we've%20already%20*had*%20ST%20vs.%20B5%20in%20sports;%20our%20softball%20team%20has

http://www.jmsnews.com/thread.aspx?id=_Trek%20vs.%20B5

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-9256&query=berman

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-15165&query=berman

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-3367&query=Grand%20Theft,%20drama

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7616&query=shapechanger

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7614&query=shapechanger

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-7730&query=shapechanger

http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-13041&query=berman

A list of the similarities between DS9 and the original proposal of B5 made by Stracznynsk himself

An explanation of why Warner Brothers didn't tried to litigate ( also found in the first link)

I think that these quotes  about the Deep Space Nine controversy can be useful

The original post of JMS cited in the review whose relevant piece is transcribed right below can be found [http://www.jmsnews.com/msg.aspx?id=1-16061&query=There's%20little%20question%20in%20my%20mind%20that%20the%20suits%20at%20Paramount%20wanted%20to%20co-opt%20what%20we%20were%20doing%20with%20B5. here]

[ http://www.dvdverdict.com/reviews/ds9season1.php]

''Though I was only dimly aware of the controversy at the time, crossfire between partisans of Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 has raged hot and heavy ever since these similar shows first competed in the television marketplace. J. Michael Straczynski had "pitched" the full Babylon 5 concept in 1989 to many places, including Paramount, and soon began production of that series pilot, and a mere two months later the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine concept was in turn presented to Paramount brass. Though Babylon 5 had the early start, Paramount brought the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine pilot to air January 3, 1993, just weeks before the bow of Babylon 5 on February 22, 1993.

Ever since, the debate has raged as to whether one show "poached" off of the other. Aside from the most fanatical Trek partisans, no one seems to accuse Babylon 5 of that crime, but some credibly make the point in the other direction. However, to be absolutely clear, at no point has J. Michael Straczynski claimed that the Star Trek: Deep Space Nine creators (Rick Berman and Michael Piller) knew of the detailed Babylon 5 "pitch." Quite to the contrary, he describes both men in highly positive, ethical terms, though he fails to describe Paramount executives in such a manner. Of course, anyone in Hollywood is familiar with concurrent development patterns, though in such a gossip-riddled town, one can easily imagine how word of a hot project can soon spawn imitative fruit (and hence create the appearance of purely coincidental concurrent development). Though a truthful accounting is unlikely, Straczynski has his own measured but firmly stated view:

There's little question in my mind that the suits at Paramount wanted to co-opt what we were doing with B5. I know that they *resented* the show because it was, at that time, their belief that they pretty much owned the space SF genre.

I feel that they guided the development process in order to co-opt what we were doing. And nothing I've heard from my sources inside the studio has given me cause to think otherwise.

J. Michael Straczynski (posted on Usenet 2/19/01)''

added by PauloIapetus•, 31 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have tremendous respect for JMS, who created what I believe is the best robust SF TV series in history. (I like Joss Whedon's all-too-brief Firefly a bit more, but no one beats JMS for sheer scope and seamless tacking into real-world winds of change.) But speaking as a Wikipedian, a one-sided primary source isn't really enough to allow us to compile an proper encyclopedic statement on this subject. Surely there are secondary sources that have addressed this question? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 20:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Israel and Palestine?
The Israeli would be the Centauri, and the Narn would be a much better organized version of the Palestinians... I have always seen a great parallel, especially when considering the statement by Molari, in season 2, when his troops attacked Narn civilians. He immidiately accused the Narn of deliberately hiding military targets among civilians - just as Israel would say. The only bump I see here, is that it would make the US... The Shadows. hum... what do you think? Themalau 11:26, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
 * we can't have that! the americans must be universally "good" and the shadows are universally "evil". Of corse B5 shows us that its all in the point of view. Personally I see the Shadows as equatable to the Americans in the cold war as they do most of the fighting while the Vorlons simply supply the proxy powers, similar to the USSR's role in the cold war. Also there is the more obvious conflict between capitalism, which is based on gain and free will "What do you want", and communism, which is based unity and self sacrafice for the greater good "Who are you".--99.148.25.37 (talk) 19:34, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

error in the religious and astrology section
Throughout the show numerous references are made concerning astrology and Sheridan's analogous role in history to that of a messiah. After the defeat of the Shadows in season four episode Into The Fire, Sheridan comments to Delennn "This is a new age Delenn, the third age". The third age is the age of Aquarius, the first and second being Aries and Pisces. An Astrological age is approximately 2160 years. The age of Pisces is generally regarded to have started at year 1 AD. That would make the year 2162 the first year of Aquarius, which is exactly when the shadow war takes place

The shadow war takes place in 2260. Not 2160.

216.59.240.51 (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Original Research
As much as I love the show and find a discussion of comparative influences interesting, I have to say this article smacks of original research. There are relatively few references for the length of the article and of those references almost none refer to a scholary comparison of the series and its alleged source material. The majority of the article is simply a litany of comparisons between characters or situations in Babylon 5 and similar cases in other works. I wonder whether this truly belongs on Wikipedia in its current form. Stile4aly (talk) 21:51, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I respect your position and I admit that some of the comparisons, though capable of being surmised from the primary sources ( the statements of JMS, other observers, the simple comparison of words), were not treated in detail in so called "Secondary" reliable sources.

But, remember, how many "scholarly" works do you know that were writen about Babylon 5? I know from personal experience that many published books and academic research are not so comprehensible and insightful as Anne Hamilton's site. Her page, though not considered a "reliable source" is, technicaly, as scholarly as you can get when we are treating of a Sci-Fi TV Series that was concluded eleven years ago. And it was, virtualy, the only place in which there is a type of chronicle of the issue regards the comparison between Babylon 5 and the mythology of Tolkien, a polemic about its sources that was banned in Newsgroups and, quite understandably, would never be touched in the specialized media devoted to the show. Furthermore, the divulgation of B5 was ab initio made through the Internet, it's just fitting that its more reliable and detailed criticism would have this same Media as its repository. However is possible to add some other sources such as this



Besides of this fact, her page contains the quoted words in Secondary Sources(Sci Fi Entertainment, April 1996) of Bruce Boxleitner, saying that he received a copy of Lord of the Rings as a gift of JMS when he asked him about the source of his ideas. I think that when we are treating of popular Media the strict following of Wiki's guidelines is somewhat more "elastic" and well made pages as Mythic Well should be considered "scholarly opinion" and reliable sources because the Web is, virtualy, the sole place in which this type of research can receive a decent amount of space--PauloIapetus (talk) 21:12, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


 * Disambiguation – I want to make sure that by "Anne Hamilton's site" you mean the online six-part document Jumping To Babylon? I hadn't read it yet, but do mean to check out eventually all the online references that others think are important, as opposed to "fancrufty".  &mdash;Aladdin Sane (talk) 21:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

That is it. Another text containing similar analysis, complementary to Hamilton's one was an essay made by Tim Enloe. Both of them are referenced in the text.Anne Hamilton's site contains excelent tables for comparison, bibliographical references and the "chronicle" of JMS's statements about B5 and Tolkien's relationship, verifiable in the linked messages of Straczynski ( primary sources) also included in the text of Wiki's article. This includes the famous polemic that involved Sheridan's fall in the pit in Z'Ha'dum and his subsequent encounter with Lorien that so closely resembles Gandalf's fall in a pit in Khazad-Dûm and his later rescue after which he was brought to Lórien. All the statements made by her can be verified by following the links.

An ode to Babylon 5 or What an Atheist has taught me about Christian Culture.

Another sources that contain roughly the same observations

and Babylon 5

Note on Tolkien, Sinclair, Sheridan, and Delenn

More comparisons included in a book:

--PauloIapetus (talk) 08:30, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

August 2011
This article still has a lot of information that reads as original research. The comparisons between the length of the story arcs in B5 and lost is not supported by sources, and I tagged it as possible WP:OR.

Much of the following section too, on the lord of the rings, is poorly referenced and reads as OR at the moment. Dr bab (talk) 08:42, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

parallelization
Since when has "parallelization" been a word? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.7.169.37 (talk) 19:43, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Ancient Alien Theory
Some of the most striking influences on Babylon 5 seems to come directly from Ancient Alien theory. See Ancient Alien theory and Galactic Federation.

In particular, the notion that two older races (Vorlons and Shadows) with different philosophies (order and Chaos) were indirectly shepherding mankind's evolution seems borrowed from other writers. According to New Age psychic channelers such a Sal Rachele and ancient Gnostic authors, planet earth (and the rest of the universe) has long been a battle-ground between two hostile confederations of space-traveling races. The first known as the Reptilian or Orion group are non-humanoid fourth dimensional beings which appear as large reptiles or insects. They in turn were seeded by an older, unknown race. The philosophy of the reptilian society is service to self. They are known as malevolent conquerors who organize their culture in strict hierarchies. They have conquered many worlds, enslaved many races, and previously fought over control of planet Earth with the humanoids. Opposed to them are advanced humanoid races which originate from the Lyria and Sirius constellations. Froming the so-called Galactic Federation of Planets, they organize their societies around a service-to-others philosophy. The latter and former groups have both visited earth and played a role in human evolution and human catastrophic events. See http://www.salrachele.com/webchannelings/foundersonearthhistorypart1.htm and http://www.nibiruancouncil.com/html/galacticfederation.html, Madame Blavatsky's root races, the Urantia book, Scientology, Mormonism and Raelism.

In addition to new age sources, the Babylon 5 name itself has been referred to directly to ancient Babylonian creation myths which have long been used to support ancient alien theory. Ancient Mesopotamian mythology with their depictions of winged gods and their flying discs mimic the depictions of the Vorlons. In one of the last episodes of Babylon 5, the Vorlons are said to appear as angels to humans. Ancient alien theorists such as Erich Von Daniken, Zarachia Sitchin and others have written extensively about these connections. Their theory being that that ancient gods of Babylonian/Sumerian pantheon were actual space-faring beings who visited and created different races on this planet just like the Vorlons. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.105.34.225 (talk) 11:15, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

Cleanup
I tagged this article with quite a few templates. I tried to be conservative, but there are many issues that need to be solved. First of all, self-published blogs and fansites are not reliable sources. Second, this article relies on extensive quotations from the writer/creator. These are primary sources, and we need more secondary sources. Examples of secondary sources would be academic analysis, newspaper articles, etc. Some of it is legitimate, but the way that it's written is a clear violation of WP:OR and WP:SYN. For example, citing a quotation from JMS that says, "Tolkien was a major influence on me in college" is not a legitimate source for writing something like "Babylon 5 was primarily inspired by the writings of Tolkien". This statement is completely unsupported by the citation. Furthermore, some of the links are dead.

In order to comply with even the most basic Wikipedia policies, I think this article is going to have to be rewritten from scratch. If nobody else gets to it, I'll see about trying to clean it up. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 05:26, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

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Influenced BY Babylon 5?
It would be awesome to find fiction influenced by Babylon 5. Best regards, ~Whig 12:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Whig4life (talk • contribs)