Talk:Baedeker Blitz

(First comments)
The discussion of the Lubeck raids does not properly belong here, in my opinion. Does anybody object to it being removed? Hornplease 14:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Lubeck is background to the raids - what needs to be added to the background is any info on the decision making in the German High Command as to the targets and the forces to be used. GraemeLeggett 14:53, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Righto. I was just concerned that it looked a little too apologetic, you know?
 * When I first heard the phrase, I thought the story was totally unbelievable. Unfortunately, I was standing infront of a plaque in Bath at the time so didnt have much of an option of disbelief. Hornplease 15:19, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Source for the title Baedeker raids
The articles attributes the term Baedeker raids to a propagandist Baron Gustav Braun von Sturm. I could not find any person with that name. There was a Gustaf Braun von Stumm at that time, and he did not seem to be a baron (a von in the name does not make you a baron). Apparently, he was an ambassador.

Since this is the person who almost coined the term, we need a source that is better than this hearsay. It is especially important to get information how the term spread in the English language.

By the way, large parts of the article are lifted from here -- Zz 16:28, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't know about 'lifted', actually: the phrasing is similar in parts, but not that much more. Hornplease 21:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)


 * I have just checked Grayling Among the dead cities. He says Baron Gustav Braun von Sturm Page 51 last paragraph. --Philip Baird Shearer 15:03, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have also checked the quote in Grayling it is "three stars" -- I am not sure why Zickzack writes in the history of the article Revision as of 16:29, 21 May 2007 : "Undoing change to quote, even though the quote has not been verified anyway" because next to the quote is a citation I added in February --Philip Baird Shearer 15:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)


 * I have also checked the BBC article mentioned above, and I can not find which parts  Zickzack thinks were lifted from it. --Philip Baird Shearer 15:32, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I have found strangely little information that is not hearsay. It begins with giving the wrong name for the diplomat (mistaking Stumm for Sturm sounds sensionalist, but nothing any serious journalist or even historian would do), and ending with the fact that no source for the original attribution is given. -- Zz 13:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * As I said above Grayling gives his title and name as "Baron Gustav Braun von Sturm" (Page 51 last paragraph). Are you saying that Gralying's book is not a reliable source secondary source? Also do you still think parts of this article were lifted from the BBC source you mentioned above or is that now fixed? --Philip Baird Shearer 16:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There is no noble family von Sturm, hence there is no Baron von Sturm. Since Grayling says something else, it shows that he has not checked his sources. And that makes him not reliable as a secondary source, even though English language pages tell the story the same way. They likely draw from the same source. Can we agree on that?
 * If we agree on that, then the question arises how we tell the story. As I said, it is more than probable that the non-baron and ambassador Gustaf Braun von Stumm (1888 - 1963) became the propagandist Baron Gustav Braun von Sturm in British popular reception. Depending on your point of view, this may constitute original research, and we still do not know what he said actually.
 * I would prefer, if somebody dug out the original sources. Curiously, I have not found anything in German language so far. (As for lifted, forget it, it just bothered me that the Google hits led to pages that told the same story in the same words). -- Zz 19:17, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Durham raid?
There seems to have been a non-too-successful raid on Durham on 1 May 1942. But especially given the element of local myth, it would be helpful to have more citable evidence than a few web-sites e.g. http://www.ghostships.co.uk/the_north_east/history/echomemories/durham/404/171104.html or http://www.durhamcity.gov.uk/ViewDocument/937 84.92.241.186 15:13, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Personal apology for Bath raid
Willi Schludecker, 87, who flew more than 120 sorties for the Luftwaffe, including the Bath raids, has travelled to UK to make an apology in person during Bath's annual remembrance service on Friday April 25 2008. The ex-pilot paid his respects at the graves of locals killed in the raids and also visited bomb damage in the city at the Old Labour Exchange. Luftwaffe pilot sorry for bombing Is this noble gesture a first? Maybe a new section on re-evaluation would be appropriate? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:46, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree - added this to the article. I don't think it is a "first" but I still think it is a note-worthy fact. Maybe we could cross-refer other gestures of remembrance & reconciliation (eg Dresden)? 87.86.252.34 (talk) 08:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Stumm, not Sturm
You very probably got that spelling wrong. There is evidence of a Braun von Stumm in the propaganda department of Germany's Foreign Office at thaat time - a rather minor figuree, by the way - but there is no Sturm in sight (even though the wrong spelling seems to dominate in the web.) Greeetings from Vienna. Robert Schediwy --86.33.64.63 (talk) 22:19, 10 March 2010 (UTC).Belated signature --Robert Schediwy (talk) 15:02, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

P.S.: I have meanwhile found confirmation of the previous misspelling. By the way: Google books mentions that Joseph Goebbels was quite unhappy with Braun's statements or the intepretation that could be given to them (Goebbels Diaries volume 4). It would be extremely interesting to find out what Braun von Stumm actually said.--86.33.64.63 (talk) 07:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Re-write
Reading it through, this article it seems to have missed the point. I notice the main source, as it stands, seems to be a book by AC Grayling, who AFAIK is a polemicist, not a military historian. So I’m guessing whatever he wrote was to make some kind of point, rather than to explain what was actually happening. I’m re-writing the article with reference to some more relevant sources. I trust that is OK with everyone. Xyl 54 (talk) 09:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Interesting to compare the german and the english page on the subjetct. They lack in conformity. Zoola (talk) 15:22, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Article title
Since the article itself provides citation that the raids were known, in English and German, as the Baedeker Raids, why is the title of the article as it is? Surely a rename ks appropriate, with Baedeker Blitz (if there is any citation for it?) being the secondary title mentioned in the first sentence of the lead. MapReader (talk) 19:50, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Pernickety
Who is it that keeps objecting to my edit describing the Avro Manchester as ‘poor’ and the Avro Lancaster as ‘excellent?

Further, this person accuses me of vandalism, and offers threats to have my editing capabilities withdrawn.

My comment is not in any way inaccurate. Please justify the way you are behaving.

Exeter Cathedral
Exeter Cathedral was significantly damaged by a direct hit in the early hours of 4 May 1942. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.31.184.25 (talk) 16:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)