Talk:Baker–Fancher party

Mitchell Family?
On December 31, 1857, WM C.Mitchell (I believe a State Senator from Carrol County) sent a letter to AR US Senator Wm. K. Sabestian, Chairman of Indian Affairs. In the letter he says two of his sons were killed. His son,Charles, had an infant son and that the Mormons took 15 children to San Bernadino. Is that the Mitchell infant on the list? see message of the President. December 31, 1857. http://www.archive.org/details/messageofpreside00unitrich Tinosa 14:35, 28 March 2007 (UTC)


 * See numberr 48-52 in murdered at mountain meadows section. The infant is believed to have been killed accidentally during the massacre (the child never made it to "San Bernadino" (sic - ie santa clara, cedar city), however, at least one account I read said that the child died in Wyoming territory. It seems, if I remember right, that tradition says that this infant was being hidden by one of his parents who was shot and killed. The account was brought up during the trial of John D. Lee, as one of the things he protested the militia leaders about during the killings. However, although the infant shot and the mitchell child are often tied together, there is no evidence that the two are the same. i believe the Jones family says that it was an unknown daughter recently born, and the trial account leads the readers to believe that the child was very recentnly born, but it is imposible to determne for sure. Here is the list of mitchells who were on the train - all killed (incidentally, I've fixed the footnote to read properly):


 * Mitchell, Charles R., 25
 * Mitchell, Infant (possible)[4]
 * Mitchell, Joel D., 23
 * Mitchell, John,
 * Mitchell, Sarah C. Baker, 21


 * -Visorstuff 22:44, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The 1850 Census and the MMM Casualties
Except for the smallest children, and the exceptions to be mentioned below, all the victims of the violence at Mountain Meadow can be found in the 1850 census. Jurisdictions with a good many of the family groups include: Mulberry Twp, Johnson County, Arkansas; Spadra Twp, Johnson County, Arkansas; Carrollton Twp, Carroll County, Arkansas; Crooked Creek Twp, Carroll County, Arkansas; and an unnamed twp in Marion County, Arkansas. Individuals are found in Missouri (including the Huff family), Tennessee, and California (the Fanchers, on one of their several trips across the country).

The First Nations individuals of the future Utah Territory were not enumerated in 1850, and this post will not be concerned with the LDS families.

Missing from the enumerations are:

Vincent Valentine, supposed aged 21. No such person appears in the United States on a nationwide search. As this is also a popular character in a role-playing fantasy game, he may have been included on the casualty list as a spoof. A source is needed for his inclusion in the wagon trains.

The family of Joshua Miller, Matilda Cameron Miller, and James William Miller should be residing in or near Johnson County, Arkansas in 1850, but they seem to have been missed in the enumeration and may at that time have been en route for Missouri. Also missing is the Nancy Cameron born in 1845, a probable relation of Matilda Cameron Miller and her guardian William Cameron (supposed niece).

Annis Arnold [maiden name] and her husband, name unknown, who were supposed to have joined the Fancher-Baker train by their relatives, are also not found. Annis was the daughter of John and Rebecca Arnold and was born about 1805. They apparently left Shelby, Macomb, Michigan in the spring of 1857 bound for California and were never heard from again. While many things happened to people on the overland trails, apparently the family always believed from some evidence that they were at Mountain Meadow in September 1857 by accident. This was felt strongly enough that it was posted on RootsWeb. A source is needed for their inclusion in the wagon trains.

Genehisthome 05:16, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Name Duplication
There are eight names on the 'Killed' list that also appear on the 'Reclaimed' list. They are, reading Last Name, Given Names, Killed ref & Reclaimed ref: Baker, Sarah Frances, 8 & 2; Baker, William Twitty, 9 & 3; Dunlap, Georgis Ann, 25 & 4; Dunlap, Louisa, 29 & 5; Francher, Christopher, 41 & 9; Francher, Triphenia, 52 & 10; Tackitt, Emberson Milum, 78 & 16; Tackitt, William Henry, 84 & 17. The ages, where supplied, also match. Can this duplication be clarified?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pipey1 (talk • contribs) 02:05, 23 September 2008


 * There isn't a 'Killed' list; the list is of those emigrants who are believed to have been at the meadows during the massacre, including the surviving children. The children who survived are listed in bold, versus the normal text for the names of those who were massacred. Hope that makes sense and answers your questions--Mangoman88 (talk) 18:44, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Please see note I left mislabeled “Baker - Fancher Partying”’. Looking for assistance in adding to ( or debunking) facts surrounding the incident. Mhoff2404 (talk) 11:36, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Fancher-Baker
Fancher-Baker vs. Baker-Fancher

Which is it? I have always seen it called the Fancher-Baker party here on Wikipedia, but some users have been changing it to Baker-Fancher party. They use a sign at the meadows as proof that it is Baker-Fancher party; anyone have better proof? Thanks Mangoman88 (talk) 07:11, 13 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Here are three references that use "Baker" as the Captain of the original wagon train, and Alexander Fancher was with that group. Fancher negotiated the surrender with John D. Lee, so obviously he had to have held an important position with the train. Perhaps that might explain the evolution of "Baker" to "Baker-Fancher." You are correct that the Memorial signs at the massacre/burial site use the phrase "Baker-Fancher," as did the lone sign erected in 1938. The U.S. Park Service, Land Management and the National Historic Landmark group in Washington D.C. use the identification of Baker-Fancher. The earliest references to the massacre talk about Captain John "Twitty" Baker:
 * 1. 1860 Depositions at the National Archives in Washington DC (www.mtn-meadows-massacre-descendants.com)
 * 2. "Territorial Papers of the U.S. Senate 1789-1873," Roll 15 Utah. Dec 31, 1849 - Jun 11, 1870.
 * 3. Parker, B.G. "Recollections of the Mountain Meadow Massacre," Fred E. Reed Publishing: Plano CA, 1901 (given to the descendants organization by a descendant of Captain Fancher (the book is no longer in print, but can also be found at the above web site).
 * Lastly, a book will be published this year by a noted historian, the Honorable Judge Logan, who happens to be a descendant of the Dunlap family killed at Mountain Meadow. His book will detail the organization and the members of the train, and perhaps will serve to be the accepted, verifiable, definitive use of the name "Baker-Fancher" to identify the many families massacred at Mountain Meadow. Ldean50 (talk) 23:42, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Further references show Baker as the leader of the wagon train. They did not meet up with Fancher until Salt Lake City. Burr Fancher of the Mountain Meadows Monument Foundation (MMMF) wrote a book of family folklore about Alexander Fancher. These exaggerations and "stories" have elevated the fiction of Alexander Fancher who was not a leader of the train, but have been insinuated into a leader by Burr Fancher and his son, Scott Fancher.  The MMMF is a familial organization and does not represent massacre descendants - they are responsible for the juxtaposition of labeling the train Fancher-Baker and the misinformation identifying Fancher as a leader of the train. Historically, it was always the Baker train, or Baker company until the MMMF was organized in late 1990s.  A list of references historical references showing Baker as leader of the train follows and come from the earliest newspaper reports of the massacre:
 * 1.http://mountainmeadows.unl.edu/archive/mmm.news.asgd.18580417.html (1858)  "Whereas, the painful intelligence has reached us . . . an emigrant train . . . known as Baker's train, was attacked by the Mormons..."
 * 2.http://mountainmeadows.unl.edu/archive/mmm.news.asgd.18580218.html  (1858) "We get this news from a California paper, which states that the company was headed b a man familiarly known as "Uncle Jack of Crooked Creek, Carroll Co. Ark..."
 * 3. http://mountainmeadows.unl.edu/archive/mmm.news.asgd.18580227.html (1858) Identifies "Alexander Fancher and family" as just one of the families as "persons who constituted the company that left Carroll County in April last, for California, and which was known as Baker's company."
 * 4. http://monuntainmeadows.unl.edu/archive/mmm.news.dag.18750901.html Nancy M. Cates (Huff family survivor of massacre) identifies Captain Baker as he "had me in his arms when he was shot down, and fell dead."
 * 5. http://mountainmeadows.unl.edu/archive/mmm.news.dag.18571017.html This is the only newspaper article that mentions the name "Fancher" which the author spells "Fazier" as reference to one of the families. The journalist states "Fazier, Camerons and two Dunlaps" were camped six miles from Salt Lake City and meant to stay there "eight weeks" . . . "Baker had not arrived." The majority of the Dunlap family were traveling with the Baker train.


 * See also, https://www.mtn-meadows-assoc.com/utah_quarterly_1992.html. Judge Roger Logan's transcribes the 60 pages of depositions housed in the National Archives (Territorial Papers of the United States Senate 1789-1873, Roll 15, Utah December 31, 1849-June11, 1870) and states "One

of the facts which becomes readily apparent from the depositions is that John T. Baker was the organizer and leading character in the contingent of the Baker. It is interesting to note that none of the 60 pages of depositions mentions Alexander Fancher, the person traditionally thought to have been the leader of the caravan.” The "tradition" is a fiction that can be traced back to the familial organization which identifies as the MMMF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ldean50 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

Move name lists to own article?
With the long name lists on this article, it would seem usefull to actually split those out to their own list-based article; perhaps it could be named List of Baker-Fancher party members. The long lists as they are now brake-up the flow of the article, and make it harder to read. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 22:27, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * I made the longest of these lists collapsible which kind of helped, but I still think there should be a list based article. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 23:13, 30 March 2011 (UTC)


 * Moving the list to its own article sounds like a good idea to me.--Mangoman88 (talk) 01:55, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

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Baker-Fancher Partying was
The list seems to be incomplete. Came across a news article showing my Great Great Grandfather William Stowell a surviving child raised by Indians. His parents Daniel and Louisa Stowell were also killed at the incident. This article says “ William A.Stowell, whose parents were killed by Mormons in the Mountain Meadow Massacre. The boy escaped and lived for awhile with Indians. He joined General Johnston’s army and came to California with it.” Best I can tell it was a San Francisco newspaper ( Chronicle?) possibly 1928 as it mentions Stowell’s widow Celeste Ann Twitchell ( Hickok) being in the Diamond Jubilee parade representing the “native Sons and Daughters of San Joaquin County”. Mhoff2404 (talk) 11:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
 * The information is very interesting but it cannot be used as a reference since it is not from a cited source. We would need more information about the newspaper to use it as a reference. Sadly, an undated clipping isn't much help. I was only able to find it at http://www.barnum.org/nti04652.htm and at http://www.cowboypoetry.com/photowk6.htm but those are transcriptions. Shearonink (talk) 15:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)