Talk:Battle of the Olive Grove of Kountouras

Good Article Review
Criteria:
 * 1) Well written
 * 2) Compelling prose: The opening paragraph should end with a sentence on the outcome of the battle (Franks/Crusaders won, Greek resistance collapsed). The first sentence of "Background" is a run-on sentence and should be revised. The spelling of "Geoffrey" is inconsistent in the quotation from Villehardouin, as is "Kountoura" in the final section. "Peloponnese" is generally referred to with the definite article in English: "the Peloponnese". I've made some emendations to the English translation to make it more grammatical; please revert me if I've erred.
 * 3) Logical structure: The duplicate "Sources" section is rather confusing. Perhaps it would be best to move the latter section into "References", or rename the first section "Chroniclers", or both.
 * 4) MoS: Seems fine.
 * 5) Jargon explained: Such little as there is, yes.
 * 6) Accurate and verifiable
 * 7) Referenced: Yes
 * 8) Inline citations: Yes
 * 9) Sources reliable: Yes
 * 10) Original research: not apparent.
 * 11) Broad coverage
 * 12) Addresses all major aspects: As far as I can tell (it's a rather limited topic).
 * 13) Trivia: None.
 * 14) NPOV
 * 15) Viewpoints unbiased: Yes.
 * 16) All significant POVs present: Yes.
 * 17) Stable: Yes. (Most activity from author's and my recent upgrades to GAC status).
 * 18) Images: Single suitably-tagged image of a typical olive grove in Greece. Pass.

Please address my concerns in re. point 1 and I would be happy to pass this as a Good Article. Choess 03:38, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Some notes about items mentioned in the quite diligent review: --FocalPoint 07:51, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Images: Please note that there is also the geographic location image.
 * Logical structure: Reasonable comment. We should find a way to amend this. DONE
 * Compelling prose:
 * The opening paragraph should end with a sentence on the outcome of the battle: Very reasonable comment.DONE
 * The first sentence of "Background" is a run-on sentence and should be revised: This is correct. DONE
 * The spelling of "Geoffrey" is inconsistent in the quotation from Villehardouin, as is "Kountoura" in the final section: Reasonable comment but variant spellings are fact of life.
 * Geoffroi is translated today as Geoffrey. T. Smith 1829, translated it as Geoffry. As a quotation, it should stay as it is, so should the current translation.
 * Various spellings of "Kountoura/Koundouras/Koundouros" are used in the bibliography, due to facts such as: (i) in Greek words are inflected, (ii) "nt" sounds like "nd" and (iii) names in "-as" can also be used with the suffix "-os". Variant spellings are clearly indicated in the beginning of this article though.
 * "Peloponnese" is generally referred to with the definite article in English: "the Peloponnese":
 * "Messinia, Peloponnese" I guess is OK
 * "the Theme of Peloponnese" I also guess is OK
 * "all the castles and cities of Peloponnese" Any problem here?
 * "the conquest of Peloponnese" Or here? If yes, please change accordingly
 * I've made some emendations to the English translation to make it more grammatical; please revert me if I've erred.: I translated word to word to maintain the original text as much as possible. In the case of "That and only war the Romans did", the form "That was the only war the Romans made" is grammatically better, while the former version is more accurate, closer to the poetic style of the original text (and unfortunately reminding Yoda-speak). I will not revert this, but I present it here. Someone else (Yoda himself probably...) might prefer the crude version so much that he or she will make the change.


 * OK. I changed it to "the Peloponnese" in the last two instances and changed the verb for what William did in establishing the principality of Achaea. I've promoted this to Good Article. Congratulations! Choess 23:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Addition
The addition was OK, but it implies that Geoffrey I Villehardouin came along with William of Champlitte from Costantinople. This is not correct, since Geoffrey came from Palestine, on his way back to France. I plan to fix this later, but I want to think the best way to phrase it. If anyone gets to do it first, fine.--FocalPoint 19:09, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass
As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the requirements of the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" articles. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. As a side note, I'd recommend that more sources be added to further expand the article. The paragraphs that have no sources should have inline citations added as well. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have edited the article history to reflect this review. Happy editing! --Nehrams2020 07:54, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Niketas
There also seem to be another contemporary text by "Nicetas" (probably Niketas Choniates) mentioned by Finlay.

I had a quick look through the actual text, at B.G. Niebuhr/Immanuel Bekker, 1835, Niketae Choniatae Historia, but I could not find a direct reference. I will look again. If someone wants to try, do not waste your time in the first pages, this should be after pages 700 or so.--FocalPoint (talk) 21:25, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The Greek
The claim about the Greek soldiers being «drawn from the garrisons of Nikli, Veligosti, Lacedaemon, as well as infantry provided by the Slavic Melingoi tribe of Taygetus» is an estimate of Bon 1969, pp. 61–62, however, it is his own personal conclusion. There is no such reference in the only sources we have and therefore I removed it from the text. As it was written, it was misleading, being presented as a fact, while it is the hypothesis of one author. --FocalPoint (talk) 20:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)