Talk:Belle Reve Farm

Two Belle Reves!
You could have warned me. It looks like William Shatner has (or had) two horse ranches, both named Belle Reve! One is Belle Reve Ranch in Three Rivers, California, bought in 1979, which is the one Dalan Smith built and Michael Seth Starr writes about, and Belle Reve Farm in Kentucky, which, presumably this should be about. But we really should mention the first one. Writing about this is going to be confusing; it looks like Starr was confused himself, writing that Shatner acquired the Belle Reve in California after falling in love with the notion of owning a horse while filming an episode of T. J. Hooker in 1978-1979, but T. J. Hooker only started in 1982. So I'm pretty sure he is basing this on the New York Times article which refers to the Hooker filming as the motivation for the Kentucky ranch. --GRuban (talk) 17:05, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * As a related question - in the Horse community, is there a distinction between a Horse Farm and a Horse Ranch? --GRuban (talk) 17:07, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Not much beyond dialect. Folks from the north and New England call them farms (smaller acreage), and southerners (Texas and surrounding states) call them ranches, which are typically larger than farms. For example, the King Ranch, 6666, etc.  Atsme 💬 📧 17:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The Saddle Horse Report file also seems to be confused: https://www.saddlehorsereport.com/user_files_1/Feature-Index/a058_ED_HOF_Shatner.pdf It only mentions Belle Reve Ranch in California, but talks about saddlebreds there. I am getting the impression that the saddlebreds and Donna Moore were only in Kentucky, not in California. --GRuban (talk) 20:25, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * , see Gets $500,000 For Horses - "Belle reve, [sic] the name of the farm he sold on Shannon Run Road, will remain the name for his individual stable." I'm trying to verify it but not having any luck. Shucks, I was there in '92 or thereabouts when I produced that PBS special. There are some newspaper articles about Shatner & Belle Reve in the Lexington Herald-Leader, A3, 29 July 2017 that I found at newspaper.com but I can't access the actual clips. Maybe  can help us out there. I know Bill partnered with Donna Moore, (she died in January 2014), but I don't know if he's still connected with Belle Reve in Lexington or not. My first thought is that when Donna died, Belle Reve was absorbed in her estate. I see that his ex-wife Elizabeth Martin got the Lexington home but that was separate from the farm which he co-owned with Donna after he sold the other - but again, it's heresay until verified/corroborated with RS.  Atsme  💬 📧 20:31, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Lordy: Donna Moore (horse trainer) has an article! Sultan's Great Day has an article! It's a conspiracy! A walled garden! Delete everything, and salt the names! More seriously, our Donna Moore article does say she moved to Kentucky in 1970, and apparently stayed there, so I think that confirms that the Saddle Horse Report is confused about the two Belle Reves. Meanwhile, unless I'm wrong the trektoday note you found is about Shatner selling one farm in Kentucky and buying another farm in Kentucky, correct? Of course it does confuse the issue - which of those is the one we're writing about? Both of them? If the owner, and the name of the farm, and the horses on it, are the same, but the location of the farm changes, slightly or partially, is it the same farm or a different farm? This is the Ship of Theseus problem...--GRuban (talk) 20:46, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes but Donna absolutely is a notable sports equestrian & trainer/judge. She owned Supreme Sultan, the sire of Sultan's Great Day. We're talking World's Grand Champions and sires of World's Grand Champions. Don't fall out of your chair, but there is more to sports notability than football and wrestling. For example, NCHA cutting horse trainer Phil Rapp has won over $9 Million. Some of the equestrian competitions are also Olympic class - see United States Equestrian Federation. The sources are definitely out there and a little more difficult to find, but you're a master at this, which is why I sought your help.  Atsme  💬 📧 21:41, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, comparing it to football and wrestling, that helps a lot. Did I mention I was a computer programmer? Last job, they flew a group of us developers out to the main office to meet with a group of sales people, to bridge the gaps, engender a closer working relationship, all that team building stuff. We were sitting at this big table and one of the sales people said "To break the ice, who do you like in the NCAA finals?" And there was this silence, for almost a minute. Then one of us developers asked: "That's ... a sport, right?" --GRuban (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * SMirC-chuckle.svg - we will get through this, and will find whatever it is we're looking for - so remind me, what is it we're looking for?  Atsme 💬 📧 22:29, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * We're trying to find out what farm we're actually writing about! In this section I thought we figured out that there was a California and a Kentucky farm, and we're focusing on the Kentucky farm in this article. I was willing to overlook the slight size difference - it's still the same farm even if it changes size slightly. But the TrekToday note you found muddies the issue - if Shatner actually sold the Belle Reve farm in 1999, and bought another, do all the references after 1999 really apply to our article? Or is it still Belle Reve after 1999? Did he only sell part of the farm? Or are we writing about Shatner's farm called Belle Reve even if it's not in the same place? If so, should we write about the California one too? And how about Shatner's horsey activities not in either farm, like his participation in races, or his wife's participation, or the horses he owned in Los Angeles - it looks like he did keep some horses in LA as well? This is kind of a fundamental question, really: What Is This Article Actually About? --GRuban (talk) 23:34, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Here's the clippings if it helps (I have no clue about the subject matter): . Regards  So  Why  07:10, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

UTC)
 * TY, SoWhy!  Atsme 💬 📧 11:52, 4 November 2020 (UTC)

Three Belle Reves?
Aha! That Donna Moore (horse trainer) has this as a reference, https://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/05/sports/national-horse-show-saddlebred-trainer-is-in-show-business.html which may explain the TrekToday note you found about selling Kentucky farms. It says "Shatner bought two of the horses that day. Later, seeking to upgrade his stock, he was sent to Kentucky to deal with Moore. I sold him an interest in a breeding stallion, and then he just kept coming back and coming back, and finally he even bought my farm, she said... Moore supervises 40 horses, most of them at the actor's 87-acre Belle Reve Farm." Note, 87 acres! Is it possible that the 87 acre farm, formerly owned by Donna Moore, was the one he sold in 1999, and the 360 acre farm was the one he bought? The TrekToday note does say "The new property, fronting Versailles Road and Blue Grass Parkway, is larger than his previous farm, Belle reve on Shannon Run Road, but has fewer stalls for horses." Could "larger" mean 4 times as large? Do you, by chance, recall when you were at the farm in 1992, was it on Shannon Run Road, and was it 87 acres or 360 acres? --GRuban (talk) 21:33, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * What I can recall, Donna's property was down the road from the main barn that Bill purchased. We went from there, and drove down to the other facility which was Donna's property. He mentioned that he was thinking about buying it, so perhaps he eventually did, and what I'm saying now is strictly for leads to help find RS for verification. It was a relatively small area of beautiful Kentucky bluegrass that was perfect for raising horses. I'm searching Google right along with you, but you have more access to reliable books than I do here on Bonaire. We don't even have a library to my knowledge.  Atsme 💬 📧 21:56, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Corroborating evidence for my theory! https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kentucky_Stories/8iQjcZ7rwZMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=belle%20reve "Shatner ... owns a 76 acre horse farm in Woodford County where he raises and trains American Saddlebreds. ... A California trainer introduced him to Donna Moore, a well known Kentucky saddlebred rider and trainer, who assisted Shatner in buying several horses and who now manages his farm -- Belle Reve" "Horse Trek July 30, 1990, in Kentucky Stories By Byron Crawford · 2001. Not ideal, of course, 76 acres rather than 87 acres. But hopefully an 11 acre difference is more forgivable than a 290 acre one? Maybe he sold a couple of acres here and there between 1988 and 1990 without anyone writing about it. Not clear if this is a self-published work or not, though we do have an article about the author, who was a journalist, columnist even. With the separate title and date, though, odds seem good this was originally an article in his column The Courier-Journal, though, which would make it a reliable source. --GRuban (talk) 22:39, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

A tale of two Kentucky farms
OK, I dug even more, and have the following theory. In 1985, Shatner bought a farm on 1181 Shannon Run Road from Donna Moore (and kept her on to run it). It was between 76 and 88 acres in size. He named it Belle Reve Farm. This is where you filmed him in 1992. In 1999, he sold the farm on Shannon Run Road, and bought a 360 acre farm on Versailles Road and Blue Grass Parkway ... and also named it Belle Reve Farm. The 88 acre Belle Reve Farm went to Ann Fitzpatrick, who called it Rigby's Green, and in 2007 sold it to Matt and Kristen Shiflet who called it Diamond View. I notice all of our sources that say that Shatner has a 360 acre Belle Reve Farm date after 1999 (actually I can't find any before 2006).

Here are the sources for this in chronological order:


 * https://www.saddlehorsereport.com/news/donna-moore-life-high-low-whole-lot-fun-6829 "One of the next chapters in Donna’s storied career featured William Shatner and his 1985 purchase of her farm on Shannon Run Road, the farm that became Belle Reve."
 * https://www.nytimes.com/1988/11/05/sports/national-horse-show-saddlebred-trainer-is-in-show-business.html NOvember 5, 1988 "Shatner bought two of the horses that day. Later, seeking to upgrade his stock, he was sent to Kentucky to deal with Moore. I sold him an interest in a breeding stallion, and then he just kept coming back and coming back, and finally he even bought my farm, she said... Moore supervises 40 horses, most of them at the actor's 87-acre Belle Reve Farm."
 * https://www.google.com/books/edition/Kentucky_Stories/8iQjcZ7rwZMC?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=belle%20reve "Shatner ... owns a 76 acre horse farm in Woodford County where he raises and trains American Saddlebreds. ... A California trainer introduced him to Donna Moore, a well known Kentucky saddlebred rider and trainer, who assisted Shatner in buying several horses and who now manages his farm -- Belle Reve" "Horse Trek July 30, 1990, in Kentucky Stories By Byron Crawford 2001 (probably a 1990 column in The Courier-Journal, Kentucky paper)
 * https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1998-may-03-tr-45797-story.html May 3, 1998 "In this economic galaxy, "Star Trek's" William Shatner can comfortably blend into the background with his relatively modest farm, Belle Reve." Could a 360 acre farm be considered "relatively modest"? Or is this a reference to the 88 acre farm?
 * https://www.trektoday.com/archives/august1999_classic.shtml#Shatner the one that started this mess: Lexington Herald-Leader of Saturday, July 17, 1999. The paper contained an article by Maryjean Wall, looking at his recent selling of 25 American saddlebred horses: Shatner recently sold one farm and bought another in Woodford County with longtime saddlebred owner and trainer Donna Moore. The new property, fronting Versailles Road and Blue Grass Parkway, is larger than his previous farm, Belle reve on Shannon Run Road, but has fewer stalls for horses. The sale 'was an effort to reduce the size of my stock to fit in 19 stalls,' said Shatner. Although he sold about 25 horses, he has about 30 left, including broodmares and young stock. Shatner said the sale grossed about $500,000. [...] Shatner said he and Moore are thinking of calling their new partnership Belle-Moore. Belle reve, the name of the farm he sold on Shannon Run Road, will remain the name for his individual stable."
 * https://www.saddlehorsereport.com/user_files_1/Feature-Index/Eleanor.pdf "Fitzpatrick purchased Shatner’s Belle Reve Farm in Versailles, KY and named it Rigby’s Green" Saddle Horse Report • May 25, 2015. However it doesn't say when Fitzpatrick bought the farm.
 * Yes! http://www.breedersguide.com/saddlebreds/saddlebreds_profiles/Saddle04%2021.pdf " (no date, unfortunately) Ann Fitzpatrick purchased the former Bel Reve Farm in Versailles, KY. ... Since her 1999 purchase of the famed Shannon Run Road property, the facility has taken on a new name and a new look but the results of producing, training, and showing Worldclass performers has remained the same. Now known as Rigby’s Green, the 88-acre show place is home to McConnell Stables and Fitzpatrick’s small but select breeding program. ... Rigby’s Green at 1181 Shannon Run Rd.,"
 * https://www.saddlehorsereport.com/news/diamond-view-moves-kentucky-3011 March 9, 2007 "Matt and Kristen Shiflet have moved their Diamond View Farm to the heart of the Bluegrass with their purchase of Rigby’s Green in Versailles, Ky. The farm has a rich Saddle Horse history as William Shatner’s Belle Reve Farm and Donna Moore previously occupied the Shannon Run Road training and breeding facility."
 * https://variety.com/2006/scene/markets-festivals/william-shatner-1200340139/#! July 11, 2006 "The then Elizabeth Martin, a horse trainer who knew the Shatners slightly, offered her condolences. The couple married in 2001... He got into the sport seriously in 1985 when he saw “the most beautiful thing I’d ever laid eyes on” at the Los Angeles Equestrian Center in Burbank. It was Sultan’s Great Day, a 2-year-old black American Saddlebred stallion. Shatner bought the horse, which went on to become the American Saddlebred Horse Assn. World Champion. He also bought a 360-acre ranch in Kentucky, which he named Belle Reve, French for “beautiful dream,” to pursue his own dream of breeding Saddlebreds." It doesn't say the 360 acre ranch was bought in 1985; but implies it. This, 2006, article, is the earliest I can find about Belle Reve being 360 acres.
 * https://www.stltoday.com/entertainment/arts-and-theatre/william-and-liz-shatner-get-a-vip-tour-of-the-cavalia-horse-stables/article_d41337c4-84f5-11e1-8d53-001a4bcf6878.html (very short) Apr 12, 2012 — They have a 360-acre farm near Versailles, Ky., named Belle Reve where William raises American Saddlebreds.
 * https://www.smh.com.au/entertainment/tv-and-radio/variety-the-spice-of-life-in-william-shatners-world-20151005-gk1f1z.html "He also owns a 150-hectare farm near Versailles, Kentucky, named Belle Reve. " October 6, 2015 Our conversion template says: 150 hectare
 * https://kyphotoarchive.com/2017/03/24/william-shatner-with-colt-1985/ Lexington Herald-Leader archives "Actor William Shatner held one of the colts out of Sultan’s Great Day on Dec. 28, 1985, at Donna Moore Stables in Woodford County. Shatner’s champion American Saddlebred stallion had about two dozen mares in foal that season. The actor, famous for his television and movie work as Captain James T. Kirk in “Star Trek” and the title role in TV’s “T.J. Hooker,” and his wife, Marcy, had just bought a farm in Woodford County. Both Shatners were competitive show horse riders and had started breeding show horses on their 360-acre Belle Reve Farm. Shatner turned 86 this week. Photo by Ron Garrison | Staff" This is just a photo caption, but might conflict with the theory if we assume it means he owned the 360 acre farm in 1985. I'm going with this being a conflation of the smaller farm in 1985 and larger farm later.
 * https://www.murfreesborovoice.com/article/3485/william-shatner-has-been-to-murfreesboro-quite-a-bit "He raises the horses on a 360-acre farm, named Belle Reve Farm, near Lexington, Kentucky." Feb 6, 2020

So, now the question: Are we writing about the smaller Belle Reve that Donna Moore once owned and you filmed at? Or the 360 acre Belle Reve? Ideally, we'd write about both of them, but, darn it, we don't have a source that completely backs up this smaller/larger theory. If we had the Lexington Herald-Leader of Saturday, July 17, 1999, that would help, but even that wouldn't be enough, since it doesn't specifically say "the larger farm is 360 acres, and he's going to call it Belle Reve". That is pretty much Original research on my part.

I see three choices:
 * 1) Write about the smaller farm, throw away the stuff about the 360 acre farm, and fight forever to delete well cited things about the 360 acre farm from being put in the article.
 * 2) Write about the smaller farm, but keep put the stuff about the 360 acre farm in the article, and just don't explain the fact these are actually two different farms; let the reader beware! At best, we can say "after 2000, sources refer to the farm as being 360 acres"
 * 3) Write about the smaller farm and the larger farm, and put in one poorly cited sentence about Shatner selling the smaller and buying the larger farm and moving the name.

None of these is perfectly satisfactory.

Help! --GRuban (talk) 16:37, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


 * I guess we could write either William Shatner or Melanie Moore (daughter of Donna Moore, who still trains horses in Kentucky), and ask them to confirm the theory. But even if they do, their email wouldn't be a reliable source that we could cite. Whinny..... --GRuban (talk) 16:51, 9 November 2020 (UTC)


 * Wow!! You are quite the researcher! Maybe you'll like my alternative plan better. We currently have William_Shatner with mention of Belle Reve in it, but it really wasn't his "hobby", rather it was big business. He also had Quarter Horses including cutting horses and reining horses in California. His American Saddlebreds were primarily in KY - and here is video of his tumble. I think there's enough for a spin-off William Shatner (equestrian) because his main article is already huge, and there are plenty of sources to justify a separate article. That would mean deleting Belle Reve Farm, which probably should happen anyway because the farm itself isn't notable - Shatner owning it makes it notable. I'll start something in draft that we can both work on, if you're up for it?
 * Reining horse award
 * Horse Nation
 * Semen battle
 * American Cowboy
 * Spirit of the Horse, the book he authored
 * Dale Wilkinson Lifetime Achievement Award
 * Saddle Horse Report
 * The above list of sources popped up with little effort. Does that work for you?  Atsme 💬 📧 17:18, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
 * To be honest, that sounds like quite a bit more work, that I'm not sure that I want to volunteer for. I know this is a horse themed article, but I do not want to be Boxer (Animal Farm)! And it doesn't resolve the issue of what we tell people about the two Kentucky Belle Reve Farms - though in such an article it would be less of a big deal, granted. If you want to do it, it probably shouldn't be William Shatner (equestrian), that sounds like what we would name an article about a different person named William Shatner to differentiate it from the article about the actor; maybe Equestrianism of William Shatner? I'll stick with Belle Reve Farm. If you don't have a better idea, I'll go with option 3, writing something like "In 1999 Shatner sold the 88 acre farm, bought a larger farm in the same county, and kept the Belle Reve name.(cite the Lexington Herald Leader ... even though we don't actually have a link to it per se; also BreedersGuide and SaddleHorseReport which at least confirm the sale, if not keeping the name, and presumably the later sources about Shatner having a 360 acre Belle Reve Farm will be enough for him keeping the name.) In 2006, Belle Reve Farm was 360 acres." If you do end up writing the article about T. J. Hoofer, we can consider whether we merge in the text from Belle Reve Farm or keep them separate. --GRuban (talk) 18:11, 9 November 2020 (UTC)

Mostly done
OK, I think I'm mostly done, barring your input. --GRuban (talk) 18:01, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I didn't do much with the Horses section - honestly, I was tempted to delete most of it, but that's because I don't understand the subject. If you think the list of horses is important, maybe we can make it a formal list of famous horses that were raised at Belle Reve Farm, if we can cite each one. For each we would need:
 * 1) citation that it was raised at Belle Reve Farm;
 * 2) citation that it was famous (champion something or other).
 * I'm not sure that I got the wording right for things like "foal of Sultan's Great Day" - is that best, or do equine people use "son of"? "child of"? Is "owned and bred from" acceptable phrasing?
 * Same places - I left out the names of the people who bought the new ranch on the theory they're not public figures, but maybe they are? I don't know. Are most people who buy championship horses and ranches to keep them on notable enough that we don't need to worry about leaving out their names?
 * I am afraid that we do need to mention that Shatner probably no longer owns the farm since the latest divorce settlement. Yes, I know, the sources only explicitly say she got the house, which is what I wrote, but you'll notice she also got two horses, and Mr Shatner got the California ranch, so I doubt she didn't get the Kentucky ranch as well, she isn't going to be keeping the horses in the living room.
 * I would love some images from your documentary you think are appropriate. I think we can do better than File:William Shatner frame capture.png - it doesn't show much of the ranch, or the horse, and the man is fuzzy. I think we want maybe two to four of these. Possibilities:
 * Horses running around the ranch about 0:30 or 1:08; if that is the ranch (By the way, why are there unicorns at 1:04? Are you quite sure this is a documentary, or did you just make stuff up?)
 * Shatner on one at 0:41 or 6:15 - is that Sultan's Great Day?
 * Shatner in a Belle Reve cap at 4:19
 * a more full frame of the File:William Shatner frame capture.png at 5:48-5:57 or 6:42-55, but include the whole horse, if that is Sultan's Great Day
 * Again Shatner, Belle Reve Cap, some horse at 8:49 or 10:09-37
 * Probably not the breeding sequence at 9:20, but it's tempting! Horse porn!
 * Shatner with Donna Moore around 12:36 - how can you wear a light colored jacket around horses and not get it immediately dirty?
 * William and Marcy Shatner around 23:55 - yeah, I know they got divorced, but she was a big part of the farm, arguably made up the name; we write about her, why not picture her?
 * Anything else?
 * Forgive me, GR - I've been tied-up at AE so my mind isn't focused here right now.  Atsme 💬 📧 19:10, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Oh, my, Atsme. I didn't see that. Politics is a dirty business; I recommend sticking to good clean horse ... mud. --GRuban (talk) 20:51, 10 November 2020 (UTC)
 * : So, I gather the AE is over? (Or are you going to hire a lawyer with a really bad hair dye job to appeal?) Time to unlock the barn door and get the horses back in? Wanna discuss the screenshots, grab screenshots, or just stamp ("brand"?) the YouTube video with a Creative Commons license, so I can grab the ones I like (probably 2-4 of the ones above)? Or we can discuss more about the article if y'all like, starting with the points above, perhaps. --GRuban (talk) 03:47, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Apologies!! I'm working on an FA peer review, so as soon as that's over, I'll refocus. The YouTube video is very low quality, so I will try to locate the digitized documentary which is archived on one of my storage drives. I'm not at liberty to CC the doc because some of the footage is 3rd party licensed and makes fair use a bit tricky. Also found this book and a review that describes it in part as ...developing a ranch and establishing a brand/reputation within the California horse community. Too bad it's not an eBook. If I order the book, it will take a minimum of 3 wks to get it here. Perhaps there's a way to contact the author in hopes of him donating some of his photos? Oh, and if you're just scanning for images, you missed the narrative that explains the unicorns. Rewind. SMirC-cool.svg  Atsme 💬 📧 11:59, 21 November 2020 (UTC)
 * That's the Dalan Smith book I mentioned above, it's about building the California ranch. Here, let me add visuals to distinguish: --GRuban (talk) 14:21, 22 November 2020 (UTC)


 * SMirC-chuckle.svg Love it!! Again, my apologies for not paying close attention. Did you purchase that book, or do you have access to it via the library - whatever? I don't think Bonaire has a library, and if it does, I doubt it's much of one and the books are probably Dutch. Ok, re: photos - let me see what I can find to upload.  Atsme 💬 📧 14:40, 22 November 2020 (UTC)
 * No, don't have or plan to get. But on that Amazon page you can "look inside the book" and read the foreword, and see it's about the Three Rivers ranch. --GRuban (talk) 21:45, 23 November 2020 (UTC)

- I uploaded a :46 second File:Belle Reve Farm.webmhd.webm video clip from A Celebration of Horses: The American Saddlebred which is the intro to Shatner and Belle Reve Farm. I also uploaded some freeze frames which are not photographic quality but not too bad if kept small - might work for a little gallery:
 * 1) William_Shatner_and_Sultan's_Great_Day.jpg
 * 2) Sign_for_Belle_Reve_Farm_at_horse_show.jpg
 * 3) Sultan's_Great_Day_CU_head.jpg
 * 4) Sultan's_Great_Day_being_led.jpg
 * 5) Willaim_Shatner_showing_sorrel.jpg
 * 6) William_Shatner_riding_Sultan's_Great_Day.jpg
 * 7) William_Shatner_hugs_sorrel_filly.jpg
 * 8) William_Shatner_at_Belle_Reve_Farm.jpg
 * 9) Belle_Reve_Farm_stalls.jpg
 * 10) Belle_Reve_Farm_main_barn.jpg
 * Sorry, got distracted. Thanks for the images! I think the image of Shatner and Sultan's Great Day is the best one. It doesn't actually show the farm as such, but it does show the reasons the farm is notable, the owner and prize horse. So I stuck it in the infobox. I also made a copy in which I cropped it a bit and brightened it a bit, while leaving your original version alone. If you think the barn needs to be in the infobox, we can talk about it. Or if you really like the black borders on the barn - I cropped those off, and did that to your original file, which I hope is all right. If you'd let me have my druthers, I'd put in one with Marcy too. Honestly, to me, and, I think to most readers, people are more interesting than buildings, or even horses. But they're your images. --GRuban (talk) 23:45, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Stuck another in the Sultan's Great Day infobox. Now about editing - you have clearly demonstrated with Susun's images that you're a better image editor than I am! So if you want to improve them further, please do go ahead. I think my versions are improvements, but they're by no means the best that can be done. --GRuban (talk) 23:56, 10 December 2020 (UTC)
 * - see Twitter #1 with Bill's response, and Twitter #2, another response from him. I'd say "once owned" and that the farm property was dissolved. His Tweets verify the last 2 paragraphs in the History section. Great job, GRuban - your investigative work is impeccable!  Atsme 💬 📧 12:36, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I am not actually sure what those two short tweets confirm. The first (slightly better link) is Shatner, Dec 20, writing "No, I don’t." in response to "You do have a horse farm in KY though", which doesn't actually say much of anything specifically. The second is a little better, also Dec 20, "How about you go back to Wikipedia and scroll down to disestablished: 1999? Though it was probably 1994 when it was dissolved." which is also a bit vague, and maybe that's what he meant by not having it? Or maybe he meant losing the farm in the divorce, maybe? We have some pretty good sources (STL Today, Variety, ...) about him having a farm named Belle Reve after 1994, so I don't think we can just use his tweet as a source here without more clarification. I guess it's better than it could be, he's not saying we're wrong top to bottom, so it seems we at least got some things right in this complex chain of farms. Denny Crane! --GRuban (talk) 15:00, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * I actually signed-up for a Twitter account today, and tweeted him to contact me. Oh, and the other day as I was winding down the Netflix "Haven" marathon, guess who appears as the villain Croatoan?  Atsme 💬 📧 15:18, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Good luck, and it would be great if he could provide some specifics, though I wouldn't be surprised if he has more to occupy him than going through his papers to check which farm was bought and sold when. --GRuban (talk) 15:29, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
 * Yeah - I was there in summer '92 and he was still with Marcy, so if he's thinking '94 ... hmmm. They didn't divorce until 1996 according to Newsday so the dissolution may have started earlier.  Atsme 💬 📧 16:46, 29 December 2020 (UTC)