Talk:Ben Chifley

Untitled
Mr Austin,

Association with left-wing elements ( = Communist) issues was indeed an election issue in 1949, rightly or wrongly. Dismissing such statements (and me) as right-wing is utterly wrong.

Two examples of references for this are this webpage and (closing paragraphs).

BTW - I wrote that second paragraph which described his achievements - how is that right-wing or biased? However, you wote that analysis of his election defeat - which I did not regard as NPOV.

Arno 06:47, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Ben Chifley article says that Ben Chifley opposed the Communist Party Dissolution Bill in 1951 "on civil liberties grounds". Yet over at the Robert Menzies article, it says that the Labor Party led by Chifley let the bill pass through the Senate (which the ALP controlled during Menzies' first term). Which is correct?

Based on my reading of that period of Australian history, I have the impression that Chifley was vehemently anti-Communist (e.g. sending in the troops at the Minmi coal mine), while his successor Doc Evatt favoured a softer approach towards the Reds. I know that Evatt campaigned against the Bill at the referendum later in 1951 after Chifley passed away - perhaps Chifley was quite happy to let Menzies ban the CPA, but Evatt was more libertarian?

In any case, the Chifley article is right and the Menzies article is wrong, or vice versa. --Humehwy 00:46, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Answer to the above:

Both Chifley and Evatt were anti-Communist in the sense that they opposed Communism as an ideology and the influence of the CPA in the labour movement in particular. Evatt was after all Attorney-General in Chifley's government and was responsible for jailing Lance Sharkey for sedition. Evatt also founded ASIO as a means of keeping the CPA under surveillance.

Both Chifley and Evatt, however, opposed the Menzies government's bill to ban the CPA and the subsequent referendum. This was not through any sympathy towards the CPA but on two grounds of principle: that it was wrong to ban political parties (and also counter-productive), and that the reverse onus of proof in the bill was contary to the principles of British law.

Nevertheless, the ALP allowed the anti-Communist bill through the Senate, much against the wishes of both Chifley and Evatt, after the ALP Federal Executive ordered them to do so (as it then had the power to do). The Executive was strongly influenced by the Catholic right-wing faction of the party, and was also motivated by fear that Menzies would use the bill as a pretext for an election if it was blocked in the Senate.

Once the bill was passed, Evatt (as a lawyer) took the lead in the campaign against it, successfully arguing in the High Court that it was unconstitutional, and then leading the campaign to defeat the referendum. In this he had Chifley's full support. Chifley was dying and unable to carry the campaign burden that Evatt took on.

So there is no contradiction between the two articles, although they should probably be edited so that they tell the same story about these events.

Adam 13:13, 5 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Chifley University
Can anyone explain what this sentence means?


 * According to a debate (http://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/Prod/Parlment/HansArt.nsf/0/ca256d11000bd3aa4a25656e000f21b6?OpenDocument) on the topic, held in 1997 after the Labour party had regained government, the decision to rename Chifley University reflected a desire to attach the term of Western Sydney to institutions of lasting significance, and that the idea ultimately received the support of Bob Carr, later the Premier of New South Wales.

Adam 09:11, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No I can not explain the above sentence. But in the sited hansart Mr Aqulina claims, Western Sydney University was intended to be named Chifley University (during its establishment under the Wran and Unsworth governments). Mr Aqulina states that until a debtate lead by Terry Metherel the university was going to be established as Chifley University, claiming Terry Metherel said "Ben Chifley’s only claim to fame so far as western Sydney was concerned was that he once drove a steam train through the region."

Is there any reference that actually supports the claim of the Western Sydney name being supported by Bob Car? C4sc4 (talk) 13:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Economist?
Peter Ryan wrote (in Brief Lives) that Ben Chifley was a self taught economist and he worked on a ship, or took a trip to see South East Asia during the depression. Does anyone know of anywhere else these claims are made? C4sc4 (talk) 13:27, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Second Clause and NPOV
''Australian politician and the 16th Prime Minister of Australia, was one of Australia's most influential Prime Ministers. Among his government's accomplishments were the post-war immigration scheme under Arthur Calwell, the establishment of Australian citizenship in 1949, the Snowy Mountains Scheme, airlines Qantas and TAA, a social security scheme for the unemployed, reorganising and enlarging the CSIRO, and the founding of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO). One of the few successful referenda to modify the Australian Constitution took place during his term.'' - is there any real justification for rating him as influential as PM? Most of the lauded schemes were only initiated in '49 and probably carried out because of Menzies support for the projects. Qantas and TAA were not requiring PM's support (TAA was a private company). ASIO was later revealed to be riddled with communist spies. CSIRO can't even report accurately on the weather. Instead of claiming that Chifley was influential, how about saying he was "Highly lauded by his supporters." DDB (talk) 06:48, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Misleading Hyperbole
Quote "unprecedented government involvement in education ," end quote this may be a correct citation but is not fact and is hyperbolic. Education was the provenance of state government both before and after Chifley. Chifley may have spent federal money on aspects of schooling, but that is hardly federal reform. State curriculum was determined by states and buildings were still built by the states. Private schools still ran privately. In fact, without detail, I would question that there was any federal involvement. DDB (talk) 06:06, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

POV?
One of the few successful referendums to modify the Australian Constitution, the 1946 Social Services referendum, took place during Chifley's term.

It seems to me that a referendum that passes is only "successful" from the perspective of those who were advocating the YES case. Those advocating NO would only consider the outcome to be successful if the NO vote got the numbers. It's a campaign that is successful or not; a referendum itself is neither successful nor unsuccessful.

Am I being too anal here, or do we need to fix the wording? --  Jack of Oz   [your turn]  09:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Love of Rocks?
"Ben Chifley was also known for his immense love of geology, especially rocks. His love of Australian rocks was unknown to most except his close family and he often advocated for the preservation of Australia's natural rocky landforms." Can we reference this statement? Is it possible this is merely an oblique reference to Ayer's Rock, later renamed Uluru and not geological stone formations in general? Or is his love for such stone broadened to include Three Sisters and the Apostles? Sadly he missed Jagger or Australian culture might have been more welcoming of that stoned group. The pet kangaroo riding reads like a joke .. much like the cloying and turgid wording of most of this hagiography. DDB (talk) 10:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Love of rocks was vandalism. Spoke with fellow student of vandal who confirmed this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ColBatGuano (talk • contribs) 02:31, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

New Research/so called reforms
The danger of new research in listing items Chifley was involved in is that they may be factually wrong, misleading, unencyclopedic and partial. For example, higher education is mentioned as being a triumph of Chifley. He is said to have initiated scholarships. However, the expansion of higher education was related to returning soldiers not having traditional vocations on return from world war 2. It mistakes opportunism with policy. There is no evidence Chifley wanted it but that his Minister applied a quick fix to the problem that the Chifley government was maintaining post war rationing years after the war ended. Chifley was a control freak who wanted social change and used government control to get his way. His government was so unpopular at the end that the succeeding Liberal government held office for twenty two years. The hagiographic detail ignores this. DDB (talk) 09:47, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistencies relating to death & parliamentary term
If Chifley died on 13 June 1951, why does the info box say he was member of Macquarie till 28 July 1951? He could not continue to represent his electorate for another 6 weeks after his death! Mrodowicz (talk) 03:53, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
 * 28 July was the date of the by-election. It's wrong anyway, though; changed. Frickeg (talk) 08:54, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Dealings with Laurence Hartnett
I am working on the Hartnett_(car) page. Laurence_Hartnett was the former Australian Managing Director of General Motors Holden. He had a disagreement with his superiors in Detroit and resigned his position in 1947. The current Hartnett Car article states that "The former Managing Director of General Motors-Holden's, Laurence Hartnett, was approached by then Australian Prime Minister Ben Chifley regarding the possible establishment of an Australian motor manufacturing company to challenge the dominance of GMH in the Australian market." This is attributed to an article in "Australian Classic Car" magazine.

From my research I can not find any evidence of Ben Chifley approaching Hartnett. All I can find are press articles reporting on meetings where Hartnett has approached Chifley or other members of the Cabinet.

A popular belief is that the Hartnett Car failed because the Federal government reneged on promises to support the project in terms of financial inducements. I am forming the opinion that this may not be true. A very early "confidential" memo from Hartnett to potential investors states that " the car has the full support of the Australian Government including the Prime Minister. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hartnett_Prospectus_Annexure_A.pdf

A later draft of this memo makes no such claim https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hartnett_Prospectus_Annexure_B.pdf . Nor does the final prospectus https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hartnett_Prospectus.pdf .

I am considering the option that Hartnett (a good salesman) simply spread the idea to early investors that he was approached by Chifley. When the project failed he then blamed Chifley. Does any editor of this article have any thoughts or reference materials to help document the true position? Brycewhite (talk) 22:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit note: lists of legislative achievements
There were at least three overlapping but different lists of legislative achievements, presumably from different sources: one in the lead, and the others in the body under the Prime Ministership heading. In particular, most of the items that were in the lead were not mentioned anywhere in the body, which was unsatisfactory.

I have consolidated these and eliminated duplications. I have adopted the list format as the minutiae of some of the items are surely only of interest to specialist scholars in the history of social welfare, and break the flow of the article. There are now two lists, one about social welfare, and one about other legislative achievements. The PBS stays in its own, prose-form paragraph, as that paragraph also discusses the referendum which is of general relevance in the narrative. The banking reforms also stay in their own paragraph, as it is linked to the bank nationalisation controversy.

I have taken a "minimum change" approach, preserving all content that is not explained in more detail somewhere else in the body, so the lists and the narrative before and after them may need further rationalisation and refinement. --62.189.73.197 (talk) 12:23, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

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