Talk:Bentworth

Move?

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved. harej 02:29, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Bentworth, Hampshire → Bentworth —
 * There are no other villages or articles with the name 'Bentworth' apart from a disambiguation page in which I have moved myself. To add more confusion, there is a disambiguation page redirect named Bentworth in which can be deleted to make way in moving Bentworth, Hampshire to Bentworth. Jaguar (talk) 13:44, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I moved Bentworth (disambiguation) back to Bentworth and found another meaning for the name Bentworth. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 20:28, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support move per nom. The village is the only thing just called "Bentworth" for which we have an article, hence no need to disambiguate. Per WP:PTM, it's debatable whether we need a dab page at all. PC78 (talk) 22:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose: Bentworth School District has as much claim to the search string "Bentworth" as our Hampshire village. There are various Bentworth results for Pennsylvania Bentworth Pennsylvania Keep things as they are. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 08:37, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The former has a distinct page title and can be handled with a hatnote; the latter do not have Wikipedia articles, hence they are not relevant. PC78 (talk) 11:24, 25 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose since it is not established that a primary topic exists. A village with a population of 550 is a very weak claim for the primary topic when the school district serves a much larger population. Vegaswikian (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support Bentworth is the only actual thing called Bentworth. Although the school district in Pennsylvania shares the same name, they are not relevant. However, the Hampshire village does have a stronger point than the Bentworth School District because the village has much more popularity, importance and more search results than the school district. If it does get renamed, it should never get confused with the school district in Pennsylvania. Jaguar (talk) 11:14, 31 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. If this page is moved and hatnote links are created to the other two uses of "Bentworth", then readers seeking the other two uses will be no worse off than when going through a dab page (one click away), while those seeking this subject will be better off.  Because there are only 2 or 3 uses of this term, I see no downside to this move, despite primary topic being in question.  When there are only 2 or even 3 entries, whether the topic is actually primary is not as important as when there are more entries.  --Born2cycle (talk) 19:45, 24 November 2010 (UTC) Oppose Per Peter James since the school district is unrelated to this village I now agree with Vegaswikian that primary topic has not been established.  --Born2cycle (talk) 19:52, 17 November 2010 (UTC) Support.  I presume the school district is named after the town and practically anyone who knows of the school district knows of the town, and so would not be surprised to find the article of the town when searching for "Bentworth", and is highly unlikely to search for just "Bentworth" when looking for the school district.  Therefore, the town, no matter how small, appears to be the primary topic.  --Born2cycle (talk) 23:31, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
 * The village and school district are in different countries, and the names have different derivations. Peter E. James (talk) 02:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support per WP:PRECISION, there is no reason to disambiguate this town because of its size. The other pages linked from the dab are actually not called "Bentworth"; but keep them in the dab per WP:PTM. jonkerz♠
 * Support this is the only article just called "Bentworth", others would still appear in the search box (and a hatnote in the article) with full names, if appropriate. Peter E. James (talk) 02:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support There is only one article named Bentworth.  The American school district can be dealt with quite adequately by a hatnote.  Skinsmoke (talk) 13:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)
 * Support, as per Jaguar. Jonchapple (talk) 16:51, 23 November 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

1942
1942 is not 70 years ago. I think your picture is copyright, can you remove it? Victuallers (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2011 (UTC)
 * I added the photo in 2011 when it was 69 years old. It is now 2012 so it's 70 years old. To be honest what's the point removing it when it was a few months from being 70!? Jaguar (talk) 19:17, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Bentworth revisions
Jaguar's revision: Feb 2011 Ukiws's revision: Feb 2012

Have a look. Jaguar (talk) 18:33, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * The article's current layout is somewhat unconventional, especially when compared to high-quality articles on settlements and WP:UKTOWNS which has a recommended structure. For instance I'm curious why there's a section on St Mary's Church before Bentworth's history is discussed; I would have thought doing it the other way round may have provided some context and that the history is more important because it relates to the settlement as a whole rather than a single building. The lead is supposed to summarise the article, and I wonder if Bentworth's elevation above sea level is really so important as to belong there.
 * I'm also concerned that there are problems with the article's sourcing. In this version of the article reference #50 (David Charles Douglas (1940). William the Conqueror: the Norman impact upon England. pp. 2.) doesn't mention Bentworth at all, while 27 to 31 are links to maps which don't seem to support the statements they're meant to. Nev1 (talk) 18:50, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Ukiws, it's clear a lot of time and effort has been invested in this article but I don't think it's ready to be assessed as a Good Article yet, particularly because of the referencing issue. I'd recommend removing the nomination. Not that it can't get there eventually, but the article still needs a fair bit of work. Moving forward, is there any chance you could explain why you think the article's current layout is preferable to that suggested at WP:UKTOWNS? The latter is a guideline rather than written in stone, but has been adopted by many successful articles such as Worsley, Sale, Greater Manchester, and Ashton-under-Lyne. Nev1 (talk) 18:56, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * I completely agree; I stored those two revisions there just in case anything went wrong. Ukiws' currennt revision definately has more local knowledge and we would like to keep that, but the other version has an easier layout and it is more likely to pass another GAN. If Ukiws wants to, I can copy edit the article again soon so it has a better chance to pass a GAR. I'll also take a look at the sources, thanks for pointing that one out. :-D Jaguar (talk) 18:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)


 * From Ukiws. I looked at the first page as at 14 Feb (mainly my editing) and that which is now on Wiki.  I would simply say that, for the non-specialist reader, the earlier version is better and more interesting.  It is an "executive summary" of the village backed up with clear headings and interesting photos, before more detail is given later.  It also has cross-references to other relevant web pages (such as the Parish Council, The Mummers, Cricket Club, etc).  In contrast, the current first page (to me) looks boring and is unlikely to inspire people to read further.  If changes like this are needed for a GAN, then forget it and please revert to the version of 14 February, which in the village has had some praise and will be mentioned in next month's Parish Magazine with a request for comments to come to me.  BTW, I have an extensive file on Bentworth history from a number of sources and can supply more references to the previous text if required.  However, it's the first page that I am most concerned about because it is that that makes the first impression on a reader and either gains interest to read further, or not.   Ukiws (talk) 17:00, 20 February 2012 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.176.191.97 (talk)

Demography section
I noticed the article has historic populations for 1789 and 1861. The source given for 1861 mentions the population in 1801 and 1831, but perhaps I'm missing 1861. That said, the 1801 and 1831 data tallies with this table at Vision of Britain. Using that table I'm proposing adding the following to the article:

The downside is, it doesn't differentiate between Bentworth village, Burkham, Wivelrod, Thedden, Holt End, Ashley, and elsewhere but I think the historic population change is still of interest. Also I can't make out if there's a consistent format for the references, is there one? Nev1 (talk) 20:02, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Added, thanks for that.♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:39, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Question about the lead
The lead currently states "The village of Bentworth has grown in recent years, with several new houses being built, as well as the post-Second World War development in Glebe Fields." Can we be a bit more specific than recently? The population has declined from 596 in 1961 to 466 in 2001, so is this growth restricted to the number of houses of did these new buildings replace old ones? Nev1 (talk) 19:37, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Glebe Fields and Glebe Close are new and did not replace any houses; it's a bit strange that the population of the villages has declined? Jaguar (talk) 19:41, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I did know a lot of people moved to France. Jaguar (talk) 19:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry that's not helpful! Jaguar (talk) 19:42, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * 40 years is a long time, so it's possible we're missing a trough in between so that the 2001 may be higher than 1981 for example. One option might be to say that "While several houses have been constructed recently, as well as the post-Second World War development in Glebe Fields, the populatino declined from 596 in 1961 to 466 in 2001." One concern is that the 2001 population is mentioned at the end of the first paragraph, just a few sentences before. Nev1 (talk) 19:52, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing
OK and. Where are we? Can we keep track here of what has been checked so no time is wasted?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:37, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I won't be able to check what I did until my internet connection gets fixed. Right now, I'm on dial up and it's very slow. The network is primarily a business one and they're very prompt about taking care of things after an outage report.  All should be well again later this morning. We hope (talk) 11:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Same here! There was a flood here the other day and the internet has been too slow and unstable for me to edit. It seems to be working for the moment, so I can begin to look through the comments at the FAC now.  JAG UAR   13:05, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Me too! I've been having connection problems the last two days!♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:41, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Well if you get post try to indicate what has been checked to date so if there's any remaining I can help.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:11, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm dying to make a start, but nothing outside of Wikipedia and Google is loading for me. It won't let me open a thing. I can only access most of the existing sources, so I'll rephrase whatever I can't find. I don't know what has happened to the internet - it's taking me ten seconds to load a page on Wikipedia...  JAG UAR   16:20, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

It's been about 9 years since I last used dial-up. The internet is now more loaded with items that don't work with this type of service. It wasn't too bad to use back then as I waited for my high speed connection but now! My Live Mail wouldn't work right until I was back on high speed and pages took forever to load. We hope (talk) 17:16, 14 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Took care of sourcing for the Fishers Camp/Thedden Grange issue. (Will keep adding as I keep looking back).
 * Changed text re: how Bentworth Hall was divided--I couldn't find any RS that went into the previous detail of it.
 * Removed "Feud Aids" source--this is covered with the previous citation from Biritish History Online--the article cites Feud Aids.
 * Added the British History Online citation re: Wivelrod in 2 spots.
 * Added Google Book source re: origin of Benworth name. Caution--the Book may not display fully for those outside of the US, but I read the cited page totally.

Some typo fixes and links to other WP articles. We hope (talk) 17:26, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

More additions:


 * Added details re: how Bentworth Hall was divided into separate housing from a ''The Guardian" 1983 news story.
 * Added details re: how the local schoolhouse grew over time and how St. Mary's added a clock to the church building to celebrate King George V's coronation-book refs.

Question-I can't find anything about the children's home that was there from during WWII to circa 1951, when it was said to have burned down. The villages of Bentworth and Lasham both had their part in the war. In late 1940, a children's home was built in Drury Lane in Bentworth for those who had been evacuated from London during the Blitz.

The reference given here is from a 1905 book. We hope (talk) 19:48, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Regarding the children's home, I too can't find anything reliable that states it was burned in a fire (along with the Moon Inn), however they were both destroyed in 1951. Either way, demolished or intentionally destroyed, they were next to each other and aren't here any more, so I changed it to "destroyed". Also done a bit of copyediting and clarified the stuff about elevation.  JAG UAR   17:20, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

and. Can we please do a check list here with all of the sourcing and add a {done} tick by the ref number if checked? That way I can see where we are.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:04, 17 August 2015 (UTC)


 * 1) The village name has been spelt in different ways, including: Bentewurda or Bintewurda (12th century) and Bynteworth (c. 15th century).. - at page 1 ✅
 * 2) As above. ✅
 * 3) The original meaning of the name Bent-worth may have been a place of cultivated land, or a way through land such as woodland. - at page 19 ✅
 * 4) The Swedish scholar Eilert Ekwall argues that a derivation from the Old English bent-grass is unlikely, and suggests a derivation from The tũn of Bynna's people. - checked with HathiTrust text search-added page numbers ✅
 * 5) Nothing about the 1942 dig near Chidder Hill in source cited. (WH) I've rewritten it as "Pot sherds and faunal remains from the Iron Age and several coins have been discovered, including a Bronze coin of Valentinian, discovered in 1956.", reporting what is actually given in the source. Could find no source on Chidder Hill. (DB) ✅
 * 6) "The Romans built a road between the Roman town of Silchester to the north of Old Basing, and the Roman settlement of Vindomis, just east of the present-day town of Alton, which measured 15 roman miles." - reworded to reflect the sources.✅
 * 7) As above.✅
 * 8) ...Pottery, bone objects, spindle-whorls (stone discs with a hole in the middle used in spinning thread) and fragments of Roman roofing tiles were unearthed at Wivelrod Manor . Source says "Wivelrod. Finds include pottery, bone objects, spindle-whorls and fragments of roofing tiles. C.1/4. " so says dated to 1st-4 century which is clearly Roman. All citations for ref 8 check out.✅
 * 9) "the surrounding Hundred of Odiham mentions that it had a number of outlying parishes including Bentworth." -found it ✅
 * 10) "In 1111 it was given by King Henry I, together with four other English manors, to the diocese of Rouen and Geoffrey, Count of Anjou." -Not finding this information in the book (Creighton) source. I've replaced and tweaked content.✅
 * 11) "St Mary's Church was not included in this charter but in 1165 King Henry II granted it to Roturn, then the Archdiocese of Rouen" - Does check out but you have to scroll right down British History online page to find it.✅
 * 12) "He then ceded Bentworth manor to Peter des Roches, the Bishop of Winchester, in 1207–8" -Peter des Roches book bottom of p.72 verifies it. ✅
 * 13) 150 years in possession - The History of the Parishes of Sherburn and Cawood source was added recently but I couldn't find a snippet. Can you verify ?
 * 14) Replaced source and verified ✅
 * 15) Reconstructed almost immediately in 1832 ✅
 * 16) " In 1848 the estate was sold to Jeremiah Robert Ives, including the Old Manor House (now Hall Place) and Bentworth Hall" -tweaked info slightly ✅
 * 17) " George Cecil Ives who lived for a time at the hall with his widowed paternal grandmother" -In google books I can only pick up a snippet on his earlier life, a search for grandmother and Bentowrth doesn't pick up anything. We hope? ✅ New ref for George Cecil Ives and a bit more background-he was raised by his father's mother and referred to her as his mother. We hope (talk) 18:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 18) "In 1852 the London and South Western Railway ✅
 * 19) opened a railway station in Alton, connecting to London via Farnham and Woking" -added source for Alton-Farnham ✅
 * 20) Bentworth and Lasham line not picking up in google book snippets for that book. We hope might be able to access a lot of these books in the US but we can't access them here! ✅ Couldn't even pick up a text search for the previously cited book--all Google copies are no view. This is now a citation from Transactions Volume 31 from 1898 and from HathiTrust, where it's full view for USonly.  I have made the proper changes to the text. We hope (talk) 18:11, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 21) " Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales " ✅
 * 22) William Nicholson ✅
 * 23) "occupied it until his death on 23 July 1923" .✅ changed ref to book source for Ives' date of death
 * 24) Lasham Airfield was built north of Bentworth,  avenue of trees that had been planted in 1809 by the Jervoise family to celebrate the Golden Jubilee of King George III ✅ Nothing about how the Basingstoke-Alton Road was diverted for the airfield, though "Until 1942 the Basingstoke-Alton road passed through Lasham"
 * 25) The ref says only that Thedden Grange was used to house POWs from 1939-1945. this link says that Canadian and US forces were housed at Bentworth Hall during WWII. Think the paragraph needs work.
 * 26) ✅ the Guardian article shows Thedden Grange as a site where POWs were housed.
 * 27)  "Before the Invasion of Normandy (D-Day), Nissen huts" This is quite hard to sort out.  The Village magazine says that Fishers was not at Thedden Hall, as the Guardian claims and goes on with somewhat of a description of what was there.
 * 28) Not sure what we are to check here-book is snippet searchable only
 * 29) " director of Hambros Bank in London from 1968." -yes can see in snippets ✅
 * 30) "Herbert Berens died at Bentworth Hall on 27 October 1981, and the remaining estate was put up for sale." -I tweaked this as source didn't mention Bentworth hall, only death date.✅
 * 31) "A postbox in Alton was incorrectly painted gold in Charles' honour, until the Royal Mail painted Bentworth's postbox after complaints from locals" ✅
 * 32) Distances -all check out ✅
 * 33) River Wey rises.✅
 * 34) Can't access Wykham's Register online. "Bentworth was the largest parish within the Hundred of Odiham."
 * 35) Odiham manors -replaced source ✅
 * 36) " For the manors of Bentworth, Greywell, Hartley Wintney, Liss, Sherfield-upon-Loddon, and Weston Patrick, there are no entries in the Survey, but they were all probably included in the large manor of Odiham" -replaced source. ✅
 * 37) Ashley  -snippet I picked up does mention a Ashley Farm to the west.✅
 * 38) ✅ Everything in the section about Home Farm is cited in this PDF. The PDF says the Woodland Trust bought the property in 1990 on page 6.  Why not use this PDF for the sourcing on Home Farm and drop link #52? "was bought by the Woodland Trust and opened to the public in 1991." We hope (talk) 18:53, 19 August 2015 (UTC) This link re: Burkham House also says that the Woodland Trust bought the Home Farm property in 1990 and that the Trust's purchase of the property prevented it from being turned into a landfill. We hope (talk) 19:14, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 39) "Ownership was retained by the Jeffreys family until 1965 when the estate was put up for sale" -✅
 * 40) Holt meaning - ✅
 * 41) Jenny Lane ✅
 * 42) An article about the POW camps appeared in its January 2009 issue which mentions Thedden Grange. -✅
 * 43) "The Durley History Society claimed that another POW camp existed with the name of Fishers Camp and that it was not located at Thedden Grange" - ✅
 * 44) Wivelrod 1259 ✅
 * 45) Wivelrod part of Bentworth - Table snippet showing properties of Bentworth ✅
 * 46) ✅ changed text from 2011 to 2001 census
 * 47) ✅ as above
 * 48) ✅ as above
 * 49) ✅ as above
 * 50) The Lord of the hundred in 1066 was Earl Harold ✅
 * 51) 1789 pop ✅
 * 52) "The gallery was added in celebration of the Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria in 1891" ✅
 * 53) in 2012, the school had 101 pupils -not in source I think I added this myself, can you find an archived page version? ✅-OK now. The 2013 archived page was the first Wayback crawl of the site. In 2013, there were 87 pupils, same as now.  Changed this in the article and changed the link to the present one from the school. We hope (talk) 22:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 54) Bentworth Garden Club ✅
 * 55) Snow queen ✅
 * 56) Listing building list ✅
 * 57) "There are three types of listed status for buildings in England and Wales" ✅
 * 58) "The nave roof and chancel arch date from the late 1100s and the chancel itself was built in about 1260 together with the lower part of the tower." ✅
 * 59) "In 1608 the church suffered what historian Georgia Smith describes as a "fire happening by lightening from heaven", and some of the earlier structure was damaged" ✅
 * 60) Church of St Mary -✅
 * 61) The Hankin Family Tomb in the churchyard, was Grade II listed in 2005. -✅
 * 62) War Memorial -✅
 * 63) Hall Farmhouse -✅
 * 64) Gabled cross wings -✅
 * 65) Lodge no longer part of Bentworth Hall - ✅
 * 66) Bentworth Mews - Can't locate Crawford, David (12 February 1983). "Houses that do the splits". The Guardian. p. 24. This Guardian news story is available through subscription only--that's how I read it. We hope (talk) 12:43, 18 August 2015 (UTC) OK, added subscription.✅
 * 67) Gaston Grange content -Can't access  Archive link ? "In the late 19th century, Emma Gordon-Ives owned Bentworth Hall and in 1890[72] her son Colonel Gordon Maynard Gordon-Ives built Gaston Grange 1,500 metres (4,900 ft) to the east of Bentworth Hall." "Gaston Grange has been extensively renovated in recent times." Some slight re-writing and using Country Life for these 2-we still need to get hold of the PDF as there are 2-3 more instances of use of it. We hope (talk) 20:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC) ✅ - removed the old PDF content and added whatever that could be found with the CountryLife ref.  JAG  UAR   18:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 68) Alexander Gordon -replaced source and corrected ✅
 * 69) Mulberry House ✅
 * 70) Ivalls Cottage ✅
 * 71) Ivalls Farmhouse ✅
 * 72) Holt Cottage ✅
 * 73) Star Inn ✅
 * 74) Sun Inn -I've replaced source with google map for location and website for the name.✅
 * 75) "It was located just north of the present A339 Alton-Basingstoke road between Bentworth and Lasham and was designed by John Wallis Titt" -not picking up a snippet, also why are we using a republication of the Griffith source from 1947 in 1982 separately? - ✅, found a brief history of John Wallis Titt's design of the Basingstoke and Alton Light Railway. His Wikipedia article also mentions that Bentworth's station was a "simplex", but that wasn't mentioned in the source... JAG  UAR   19:02, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 76) The station opened on 1 June 1901 and closed during the First World War on 1 January 1917... -✅ -verified via
 * 77) "Alton was on the line from London Waterloo to Winchester, and Basingstoke is on the main line from Waterloo to Salisbury." Can't see specific references for this - now ✅, found the correct publication JAG  UAR   10:15, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 78) "In the 1960s, the connection between Alton and Winchester was broken because of railway closures and the construction of the M3 motorway east of Winchester." I don't know how to access this reference, I couldn't find any mention in snippets either. But no doubt an online replacement can be found regarding railway closures. - hooray, I found a reliable source! ✅ JAG  UAR   17:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * 79) ✅ - seems OK. It's the only reference so far that details Wither's role in the civil war
 * 1) ✅ - seems OK. It's the only reference so far that details Wither's role in the civil war
 * 1) ✅ - seems OK. It's the only reference so far that details Wither's role in the civil war
 * 1) ✅ - seems OK. It's the only reference so far that details Wither's role in the civil war

I've removed the ref formerly #30-it's from a 1905 book and can't possible tell what happened during the Blitz & WWII.We hope (talk) 23:59, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Need to stop chasing refs for today-before my eyes cross. ;) We hope (talk) 01:26, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks WH, great start.♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:12, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Eeks, one problem we have it once removing sources which is common given how many need sorting the ref numbers become different, so some of the above apply to the wrong ones. How to we address that? I suggest for each ref above we add a snippet of the last part of the sentence the ref applies to so when ref numbers change we can still see where everything is and applies to.♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:36, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You would not have that problem if the references were in a separate section, sorted by author and date to refer to, rather than by ref number which changes with every move of material or addition of a ref. Example BWV 199. Better: harv refs, example BWV 22. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:14, 18 August 2015 (UTC)
 * We could move all of the references that were in the article at the time of making this list into a sandbox so that they won't be disrupted by our changes. Or maybe try out Gerda's suggestion as I'm not sure the sandbox idea would work! JAG  UAR   18:55, 18 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Can you make sure that a sentence snippet or key word is next to the "done" on all so we can fully verify what has been checked? Don't forget to remove the ? once checked too. Making good progress...♦ Dr. Blofeld  21:56, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

If both of you are in agreement, I can start changing this to harv ref tonight--will only change the revs which have been checked to try to keep things straight. We hope (talk) 20:50, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, fine, but not until all of the not dones are fixed because we may have to rid of a lot of dud sources anyway.♦ Dr. Blofeld  07:59, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Now the list is finished, can we start fixing all the not dones and if we need to remove any of the references, will it affect the list? JAG  UAR   10:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't get an archive link for ref 77 (Gaston Grange) from the Wayback Machine, but for ref 69 I clicked on the link and it seemed to work, is that definitely the correct ref? JAG  UAR   10:20, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * OK, I've approved that one then.♦ Dr. Blofeld  12:04, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Re: #73-the Guardian article. There is no way to read it without a subscription.  I've read it and I believe you have also, Dr. B. We hope (talk) 12:34, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to leave refs 20 and 23 alone as I can't access them, maybe they're only accessible in the US? With ref 29, is it referring to the year when the council estates were constructed? That did come up in the FAC but I didn't see it relevant to cite what year some council housing were made. For what it's worth, there is an original plaque of "1946" in Roman numerals on the centrepiece of one of the houses, but is it worthy as a reference? Also, with ref 35 (the elevation), a height of 712 feet is on every Ordinance Survey map, but am I right in assuming that a more reliable source has to be found for that? JAG UAR   17:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC) Ordinance Survey is a reliable source. I just deleted that though as it wouldn't support "one of the highest points" anyway. A problem in some places we have now is there's unsourced content which doesn't have a citation and isn't backed by the source in subsequent sentences. If the info can't all be verified we'll have to remove those too.♦ Dr. Blofeld  20:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)


 * You're right about refs 20 & 23. They're from HathiTrust and full view is denied to anyone not in the US.  Many times, this is the only place I can get full view of some of these sources.  There are a lot of things that haven't been uploaded to Internet Archive and one's not able to get full view at Google even if you're in the US. We hope (talk) 21:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I can't find any archived versions of the Gaston Grange PDF which is quite annoying, so I'll have to remove some content if it still can't be found. One more thing, can we use Ordnance Survey maps to cite the height of the village? If not the sentence "The elevation of the ground at St Mary's Church is 574 feet (175 m)" will have to be removed - no problem there. JAG  UAR   18:38, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I tried everything I could think of last night to get a copy of that PDF. It looks like the website is no longer online.  Went to where the current applications are kept and went through about 22 pages of them-nothing.  Also went to Wayback Machine, who has 90 other PDFs archived from the site, but this one isn't among them.  Didn't find anything else that described the interior in that detail either. We hope (talk) 18:50, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Me too! I'm surprised that the Wayback Machine had a lot of other PDFs but not the one we needed. Doesn't matter too much, I think the Gaston Grange section should be fine now. At any rate, I think we have now checked off all of the references. Before renominating I'm going to go over the article one last time and make sure that there is no margin for error. JAG  UAR   19:02, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Jaguar, we have a new citation needed re: the axe head found in October 1935. The "remains" PDF should take care of this.  Page 4 of the PDF identifies the axe head as artifact #21.  The map on page 11 shows where artifacts 18-21 were found-about mid-left on the map.  It looks like this is a bit out of town--am sure you can describe this better than I can. [[User:We hope|We hope] (talk) 20:22, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've added the location in the prose. It's actually closer to some council housing, but they weren't around in 1935 so I didn't include them. JAG  UAR   11:02, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * User:Jaguar I cannot understand from where the location Miller's Farm is derived as I cannot find it in the ref given PDF. The grid ref is given and the location in Alton Museum in the PDF, but not Miller's Farm. The grid ref looks secure enough, but if a named location is required the tennis court shown on the map is the nearest. Weller's Place Farm is shown on the PDF and both Weller's Place Farm and Wellers Place Farm are shown on my 1:25000 OS map in different places. [[User:SovalValtos|SovalValtos] (talk) 06:25, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Excessive
The length of this article is hugely excessive for a small village. For example, is it really necessary to go into details of the climate? Ehrenkater (talk) 14:42, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, comprehensiveness is arguably the most important part of the FA criteria. The village has a long history, significant manors and a large parish. It would be erroneous to suggest that the article is excessive. JAG  UAR   16:00, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed with User:Jaguar that being comprehensive is a good thing. Agreed with User:Ehrenkater that details of climate are not appropriate, particularly as in this article those not sourced. Such statements such as 'the sea breeze occasionally reaches the area' may be difficult to source, but good luck if sources can be found. In general I think climate best covered at regional level, rather than settlement level. SovalValtos (talk) 20:07, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd thought actually that the climate might be expanded a little.♦ Dr. Blofeld  10:06, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Census et al for Bentworth
This has a lot of links along with census links. We hope (talk) 23:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Minchams Field near Gaston Grange-mentions Jennie Green Lane. We hope (talk) 23:38, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Sources checking
Following the reconstruction of the sources, I have checked out the first 25 citations – at least, those that are available online. A few observations:
 * Something is wrong with Ref 10. The source page appears to be the same as that for ref 2, although the two refs are formatted differently. But I can't find any of the multiple information cited to ref 10 in this source. Have you used the wrong link? Please check this out.
 * I see the problem. Simply the matter of a duplicated link - fixed. JAG  UAR   19:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 14: Source does not mention the relationship of Maria Fitzherbert to William Urry's daughters. Also, your text refers to a "Mary Fitzherbert": is this the same person as Maria?
 * This was confusing - I searched the book for both "Maria" and "Mary" Fitzherbert and they were two different people. A search for "Maria Herbert William Urry" didn't come up with any results in the book, but it might be something similar to this. JAG  UAR   19:26, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 18: Does not support the atatement that the London and SW Railway opened in 1852, merely that the company was tendering for the building of stations at Alton and Richmond in that year. Our own WP article suggests that the line opened in 1840.
 * Corrected the date and added a new source JAG  UAR   19:39, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 21: Add page number.
 * Added JAG  UAR   19:39, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 22: Text diverges from source:
 * Article text: "The Bentworth Hall Estate was then offered for sale by John Wood & Co in 1924 and again in 26 June 1930, when an A. Willis purchased it. Shortly after Willis' purchase, Major John Arthur Pryor lived at Bentworth Hall..."
 * Source: "Arthur d’Anyers Willis bought the estate and lordship of the manor in 1924 and it was sold again in 1932 to John Arthur Pryor..."
 * Thanks, I've rephrased this JAG  UAR   19:39, 25 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 24: How is this a high-quality reliable source? In any case, your text diverges from the source, which says that the airfield destroyed much of the avenue of memorial beech trees, whereas you say the airfield was built "between the nearby village of Lasham and a historic avenue of trees..."
 * Ref 25: This only supports the information that Thedden Grange as used as the site of a POW camp. None of the information in the paragraph up to "...used it as transport to Lasham Airfield" is sourced. I notice that the previous paragraph has a "citation needed" tag, which suggests that more work is needed around this area.

Will continue to check, as time permits. Brianboulton (talk) 16:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 29: Text: "Bentworth was awarded a gold postbox in 2012 after Peter Charles, a resident of the village, won a gold medal in the equestrian event of the 2012 Summer Olympics. A postbox in Alton was incorrectly painted gold in Charles' honour, until the Royal Mail painted Bentworth's postbox after complaints from locals." The source does not mention complaints from locals. But the whole text is very clumsily worded; basically, this sort of trivia isn't worth including, and you'd be well advised to delete it altogether.
 * Removed the bit about "complaints from locals". I remember there being complaints in local newspapers back then, if I do find something on that I'll add it later. I would disagree about the trivia, I think a gold medal winner in the Olympics and a gold postbox in the village are notable as there are only a number of them in the country. JAG  UAR   17:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Added a ref from Heart, Hampshire. We hope (talk) 12:35, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 30: "Google maps" is an online source. Link required to the relevant map.
 * Ref 31: The source says the northern source rises "near Alton", not "on the west side of Alton". The source does not mention that "The lower ground to the south-east of Bentworth and to the south of the nearby villages of Lasham and Shalden drains towards the River Wey..."
 * Ref 32: Does not appear to include any of the information in the paragraph which cites it.
 * The phrase "and Tickley to the north" appears unsourced
 * It's on pretty much any map; Google Maps and Ordnance Survey too. I trust your judgement, so if you want I could remove that sentence? Tickley is a tiny hamlet and won't be missed if it gets cut! I've found that there is also another hamlet nearby that doesn't have its own Wikipedia article (it's not even this article). JAG  UAR   17:09, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Ref 36: Take a look at p. 18 of this source, which is cited three times in your text. The page is part of a projected list of works for Home Farm; how does it support the information in your text?
 * The Woodland Trust PDF is source #37-the description of the property & size is on page 5-planting of new trees was done in 1993-PDF doesn't specify where on the property on page 9. As per page 14, there presently are very few "hard" paths on the site.  Have edited this section to reflect what's in the PDF--I think the next job is to go to Harv ref to try keeping all of this straight. We hope (talk) 13:07, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

This is not very encouraging – I was hoping that this article's sourcing issues were resolved, but I am still finding problems with most references I check. It seems that more work – possibly much more – is needed before the sourcing is in order. I repeat what I said earlier: someone must check every reference to see that it actually supports what's in the text. Brianboulton (talk) 21:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I had thought I had checked most of them. Obviously I did a clumsy job! Tired of wiki right now.♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * User:Dr. Blofeld Any editor who puts in so much effort as you do is appreciated by those of us who do not. Thank you. SovalValtos (talk) 08:53, 26 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Oh, I know I'm appreciated but this really should be largely sorted out now, it's disappointing and a little embarrassing. There's sources above which even I checked and have problems! ♦ Dr. Blofeld  08:56, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I too am having trouble keeping motivation up to edit anything lately. I'm a bit baffled on how we checked every source and yet some issues remain - it takes me around twenty minutes each to search for a snippet of text within a source/book! We shouldn't give up though. It may be gruelling but our hard will pay off soon. JAG  UAR   17:02, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for taking a look at the article once again. We hope has completely overhauled the sources and now we have harv style references with a Bibliography section. I've still yet to address two of your issues above (which I will get to tomorrow morning), but can you please take a final look through the rest of the sources before we send this to FAC? Me and Dr. Blofeld have cut a lot of content that wasn't in any of the sources, and I have recently removed all mentions of the children's home from the article as I couldn't find it anywhere. We just need to make sure that everything is correct before re-nominating, and a last overlook of the sources if required beforehand. Thank you for your help so far, and no rush of course! JAG UAR   20:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Not moved to harv ref

 * ref #97 A Guide to the Steam Railways of Great Britain "Watercress Line" information-can't find in snippet search.


 * ref #98 Who was who Can't find Ives family buried in churchyard in snippet search. We hope (talk) 15:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Images
, apologies if it has been said already, but I don't think you can afford to have any more images in this article. In its current state, it looks a bit cluttered; I would even suggest losing one or two, but that is, of course, up to you. Pictures are nice, but they are not essential for an FA. Luckily we have who certainly has her work cut out. I would not add anymore as the article is currently at bursting point.  Cassianto Talk   16:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree, I replaced an existing picture today because I thought the old image was out of focus, but after looking through it again I see that the article could lose one or two non-essential images. There's probably too many of the church and one of the field in the geography section could also be cut. I'll see what I can do. JAG  UAR   19:23, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Right, I've gone through and removed ones that I think are not needed. If you disagree, come back and we'll have a chat about them. You also like to duplicate the refs too I've noticed.  I've removed a few, but you may want to check for others.  Generally, the only time a duplicate ref is needed is after a quote and at the end of the paragraph.  Talking of which, I've left a couple of  tags.  I normally avoid doing this, but I know you'll fix them when you can.   Cassianto Talk   20:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks! The images should be fine now, and I'll check for any duplicated refs there are out there. The geography section affecting some of the layout in the administration section, but that could just be my monitor. The images look great now. I'll get to adding more citations throughout the day. JAG  UAR   16:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Bentworth Stream
I am not confident in the cit for this. How reliable a reference is "Johnson, Margaret (March 2013). "Bentworth's River". The Villager: 7." ? Is 'The Villager' a magazine, book or just a self published website with no reputation for fact checking? SovalValtos (talk) 02:16, 4 September 2015 (UTC)


 * Further investigation suggests that the 'source' was an opinion piece by an environmental enthusiast (aren't we all} in the Parish magazine 'The Villager', which gives no confidence for its fact checking. Looking at old maps has not come up with any evidence for the stream's existence either. I think we need a more reliable source to justify the material's inclusion. SovalValtos (talk) 08:48, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The Villager is a monthly magazine/journal that is circulated in four villages - Bentworth being the main one. It's written by councillors, vicars, community people etc, so I took the entry for Bentworth Stream in the March 2013 issue as the only reliable source. I have long lost the issue, and the pdf file on Bentworth's website has been taken down (the whole domain is offline). I've looked high and low for more sources on this, but other than water extraction plants located where the stream used to be, I can't find anything else. I have two minds to remove it from this article, but it would be a shame to lose it. JAG  UAR   15:47, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Agreed it would be a shame to lose it, but I suppose it will still be in history to be followed up in due course. More of a shame to include such dubiously sourced material, so I will remove it now. SovalValtos (talk) 20:35, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks, yep I agree the FAC has to come first. Still very interesting that it used to have its own stream! JAG  UAR   22:12, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

Who Was Who
The Who Was Who (1967) book is essentially redundant to the online edition of the work now maintained by Oxford University Press. I've had a look and it says George Cecil Ives was the adopted son of "Hon. Emma Ives ... widow of J. R. Ives of Bentworth Hall". He was educated "at home". It doesn't say anything about the family being buried in Bentworth, nor does it say anything about the pre-1832 Bentworth Hall. That is obviously an issue, but I thought I'd provide the info to form a citation. It will need to be formatted properly and is available by subscription only:
 * "Ives, George (Cecil)". Who Was Who. A & C Black, an imprint of Bloomsbury Publishing plc, 1920–2015; online edition, Oxford University Press, 2014; online edition, April 2014 (retrieved 6 Sept 2015).

That might be easier than using the book, but it's up to you, and the other issues remain. —Noswall59 (talk) 19:30, 6 September 2015 (UTC).


 * Nor, as I pointed out during the recent FAC, does the Who Was Who entry mention that Cecil Ives was a "gay rights campaigner". It wouldn't: the term relates to a much more recent era than Ives's pre-1950 lifetime. What is the evidence for the assertion that Ives was active in this way? Brianboulton (talk) 08:05, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I've just added his ODNB entry as a ref for this as it does state: "campaigner for homosexual law reform". The sentence seems to have been added without a ref way back in 2011. I've only had a very quick skim through his ODNB entry but with a slight tweak to the family burial bit (as I'm not seeing that info in it), it may be possible to remove the Who was Who ref? Are you able to access the ODNB, Jaguar? SagaciousPhil  - Chat 09:09, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou Sagacious, I have access to ODNB, but I don't think Jaguar does. I have a feeling that even if it is further improved in the near future it won't stand a chance at FAC until it's been largely forgotten. I think the best thing would be to leave this now for a few months and open a peer review in the new year and come back at it afresh. And next we really must ensure that there's not a single thing mentioned in the article not in the source supporting it. That really has to be double checked, once all source issues have been dealt with. I can deal with people moaning about minor formatting issues, even the prose, but for people to still find unverifiable sources is rather embarrassing and really cannot happen again!♦ Dr. Blofeld  09:52, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The ODNB entry says that Ives was cremated at Golders Green crematorium, rather than buried with his family. Personally, I think all this information about Ives is marginal to an article about the village of Bentworth, and barely worth the effort of searching for sources. When the article is revived I'd be inclined to drop it. I agree with the doctor that so far as the article's development is concerned, a period of around three months should elapse, followed by a thorough peer view in which I will be pleased to participate. Brianboulton (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

I've trimmed it, removed mention of the burial because of the contradiction and added a source which says he spent time at the family home at Bentworth Hall. OK?♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:12, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, fine if you wish to keep this info in. Brianboulton (talk) 15:22, 9 September 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, you'd expect a notable people section for settlement articles. If there were more notable figures I'd favour just a list with birth and dates dates and occupation, but seems as there's little anyway I think just stating the connection with Bentworth Hall without going into detail is OK. The most important thing is that it is verifiable in the source given ;-)♦ Dr. Blofeld  15:24, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Prominent Crops
The text says "the most prominent crops are ...". Is that the case that they ARE, or is it that they WERE in 1911. Oats, Turnips, now? I do not have access to the source.SovalValtos (talk) 11:51, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * I am not suggesting getting rid of the 1911 info, just changing the tense and hopefully someone will find more recent info to include. SovalValtos (talk) 12:02, 10 September 2015 (UTC)
 * The source should be accessible if you place the cursor over the ref number and then click on the blue link that appears in the box. The source dates from 1911 and hence is not usable for statements about today, so I have adjusted the sentences about crops and woodland. However the area of the parish needs checking as well, as it may have changed since 1911, and it would anyway be preferable if the 1911 info is incorporated into the history section. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 20:40, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

Axe-head ref
Does anyone have access to this source to add it? I have heard it might be relevant. Reports of the Sub-Committee of the South-Western Group of Museums & Art Galleries on the Petrological Identification of Stone Axes. (PPS vol 28 (1962) pp209-266) The Bentworth axe-head has the number 749 written on it. Does the source mention basalt or just spotted slate? SovalValtos (talk) 07:13, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * Can't help on that one. Speaking of axe-head refs, can anyone shed light on why it's not possible to follow the link of the "County of Hampshire" ref that's used in the article to support the statement "indicating occupation in prehistoric times"? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 23:38, 7 October 2015 (UTC)


 * I cannot help with regards to the "County of Hampshire" ref, other than to say there was a period of beneficial frenetic editing a month or so ago when at least one other ref got lost. Perhaps going back to mid August might find the link? SovalValtos (talk) 00:09, 8 October 2015 (UTC)


 * The "County of Hampshire" ref was inserted by with this edit; I've never formatted refs in that way, so cannot say why it isn't functioning properly, but it obviously wasn't functioning from its first insertion. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 05:18, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

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