Talk:Berlin/Archive 1

Relation
According to Largest_urban_areas_of_the_European_Union Madrid and Barcelona and Paris are all larger than Berlin, but here it says only London is (in the EU). Which page is wrong?
 * As I understand it, Berlin's city-proper population is second only to London in the EU, but in terms of metropolitan area, it's sixth after Paris, London, the Ruhrgebiet, Marid, and Barcelona. --Angr/comhrá 04:43, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * It depends if you consider administrative units or metropolitan area. Comparing administrative units only (as this article does, as does its German counterpart) is somewhat misleading, because their boundaries are dawn according to very different criteria in different cities. For the record, Berlin's metropolitan area population is somewhere between 4 and 4.5 million (a figure you rarely encounter). wolfgang 17/04/2005, not a wiki member

I find all the superlatives in the article offensive (ie, POV). Berlin sucks. I haven't been to every town in Germany, and of course I don't know Bielefeld, so I won't say Berlin is the worst place. If you are a punk, or a yuppie, or an unsuccessful politician, or if you like living in a toilet after all, go ahead. Anyone else, stay away from that horrible place. 213.6.2.66


 * Thanks for sharing this. But what are you talking about?! urban-b 09:34, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Someone added the "Dance Club" section, but I don't feel quite happy with that, because I don't think a pure (incomplete) club-listing does belong to an encyclopedia. I guess it would be better at "Wikitravel". Furthermore the club scene changes quite frequently. E.g. the "Casino will close this weekend while the "Ostgut" will be reopened.. Any other opinions? urban-b 08:00, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Someone wrote, that on fifth of all buildings were destroyed by bombing. German cities were 60 to 80 % destroyed. That one fitfth figure needs to be checked.


 * My source is Eckart D. Stratenschulte, Kleine Geschichte Berlins (München 2000), p. 72. A quick search on Google gave me this page that speaks about the same figures. Maybe it's good to mention in the article that in the inner city 50% of the houses was damaged. (I see I have made a mistake: the book speaks about zerstört (damaged), not destroyed). --Tsja

--217.225.204.170 01:23, 8 Jul 2004 (UTC):zerstört means fully destroyed

--- Tsja, while you changed the figures, I was adding a lot of info on Berlin. It is gone, Editing conflict. Is there a way that my changes (not saved by me) have been saved somewhere else ? user:H.J.
 * I'm afraid it's lost now, but maybe it's still in the cache of your browser. Next time, when you see a screen about an editing conflict, you can copy your additions from one of the screens.
 * When I'm writing large pieces, most of the times I copy the original to a text editor and start editing. Then I copy it to the browser. In case of an editing conflict or a crash of the browser, I still have my piece in the editor. --Tsja

--- Tsja, thanks for the tip. I started looking at that stuff but got dizzy after awhile. I will just get back to it some other time. user:H.J.

I've changed


 * Until 1918 members of the Hohenzollern-family would reign Berlin successively as Margrave of Brandenburg, Duke of Pomerania, Duke of Prussia, Duke of Brandenburg-Prussia and of many other areas, King of Prussia and Emperor of Germany.

back to


 * Until 1918 members of the Hohenzollern-family would reign Berlin successively as Margrave of Brandenburg, King of Prussia and Emperor of Germany.

because the sentence means to tell in which title the Hohenzollern reigned Berlin, not which titles the Hohenzollern held. -- Tsja --- To Tsja That seems logical, except that several parts of Pomerania went back and force between Brandenburg and Pomerania ( Uckermark for example). Therefore it should also mention the reign over Pomerania and Cassubia Kashubia (earlier under the Ascanians, since 1472 under Hohenzollern) and ,Pom(m)erellia (later part of West-Prussia)etc.Berlin was the capital of brandenburg. Only since 1920 was Berlin a seperat city-state. And Berlin was the capital of the Deutsche Reich since 1871. Perhaps you want to tie into the Pomerania part seperat ? I just mentioned it very briefly, together with the other Hohenzollern titles , maybe add (also of Pomerania)?. user:H.J.

I think this would better fit in articles about the Hohenzollern or Brandenburg. In the article there are links to those subjects. In a history of a city there has to be only those details of the history of the country that directly affects that city. -- Tsja --- To Tsja That is alright with me. I am glad that you and a few others have done such a nice job on this article. Thanks. You must be pretty young ? I am guessing from the priority of the Techno stuff on top ? user:H.J. -

This "Judea declares war on Germany" stuff is nonsense. A local newspaper can not declare a war, and Hitlers anti-semitism was already obvious at the time of the writing. user:H.J., in Germany we would call such comments ""Volksverhetzung", punishable with up to five years of jail, http://dejure.org/gesetze/StGB/130.html -- JeLuF


 * Okay, but why take out the Bernstein thing? I was very much moved by it, and it conforms to our NPOV policy. --Ed Poor

What is Landesfarben? How about a definition? -- Zoe
 * The colours on the National Flag of State Colours, e.g. Schwarz-Rot-Gold Black-Red-Gold (Always in that order) for the German National Colours or Weiß-Blau White-Blue for Bayern Bavaria IsarSteve

To substanciate the war declaration, which was taken out in an attempt to censor, I am enclosing websites to inform about the Declaration of War in 1933. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=judea+declares+war+on+Germany+daily+express+march+1933 This fact has been hidden and has not been mentioned in any history books. 'Economic war' is a 'tool of war' as well. This war declaration is a vitally important fact, which I believe, has wrongly been suppressed for decades. I will, by request, not re-insert it in the subject page.

I did re-enter Bernstein's Concert user:H.J.

An additional list of the 12 current districts would be convenient. - Patrick 10:11 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure. I live in Berlin, and I wouldn't be able to tell you what district joined with what other one off the top of my head. Frankly, nobody here gives a damn. Unless you're applying for a passport or have to otherwise deal with the administration, there's really no point in knowing that. But then, I won't stop you from adding it. djmutex 10:19 9 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Can somone enter the Demographics please? Thanks Colipon 22:57, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've changed 'districts' to 'boroughs', as that seems to be considered a more fitting term (see Talk:Spandau). Sandman 10:49, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Is there any reason to have west Berlin and Mitte but no East Berlin? If you are referring to the current status rather than the former east/west "problem", then kreuzberg is not West, isn't it? Annika


 * Kreuzberg used to be in the American sector (west). Mitte used to be in the Soviet sector (east). Since the reform of 2001, boroughs have been reshuffled and names changed. Two of the new 12 borouhgs straddle the former border. One is the new borough "Kreuzberg-Friedrichshain" which consists, you guessed it, of the former borouhgs Kreuzberg (west) and Friedrichshain (east). The other is the new borough "Mitte" which consists of the old Mitte (east), Tiergarten (west) and Wedding (west). Confusing, isn't it :) wolfgang 17/04/2005, not a wiki member

This is a good basic introduction to the city. I've made a few copy edits and minor corrections. Marco polo 02:37, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Berlin Chinatown
I've read on the Chinatown article they're planning a Chinatown or Asiatown in Berlin. Is the plan gaining any momentum? Are there any concentrated Asian communities in Berlin like there are in London, Paris, and Rome?


 * there was some talk of establishing more of an East Asian commercial / trading centre somewhere in the wilds of Lichtenberg (?) where there is (IIRC) already an Asian (Vietnamese) market of some sorts. Whatever comes of it, it won't end up as your traditional "organic" Chinatown. There are concentrations of Vietnamese in some areas of eastern Berlin.

Pronunciation
The pronunciation given on this page [b&#x025b;r&#x02c8;li&#x02d0;n] seems to be indicating that the name of the city is pronounced something like "bear-lean". That doesn't seem to be right for English or for German. The English pronunciation is something like /b&#605;&#712;l&#618;n/, and I believe the German would be something like /b&#592;&#712;l&#618;n/.
 * "Bear-lean" is a quite well description for the German pronunciation, 98 per cent i'd say. urban-b 08:54, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
 * If I were an American I'd say "bear-LEAN" (the operating word being "lean"). That would sound quite German. But since I'm from Berlin, I'd like to hear a "short e" in the first syllaba. -- Sarazyn from the german Wikipedia

partially complete Germany
I must admit that I don't really get the latest edits by Burschenschafter. Why is Germany "incomplete"? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 22:34, Sep 6, 2004 (UTC)

Berolina and the Lekhitic tribes
Can anyone tell me where this "Berolina"-thing comes from? Any sources for this? As far as I know, due to the fact that the Berlin-Cölln townhall was destroyed during a fire in 1380, nothing written is left from those early days. The only Berolina I know, was a statue on Alexanderplatz.. urban-b


 * I don't know the exact historical source, I took it from some &#280;nglish-language history of Germany I read long ago. However, the name is still present in Berlin itself. If you list only the statue then apparently you missed the Berolina train, tramway factory, hotel net (one near Schönefeld airport), radio reciever (good'ol Berolina from the 1950's produced in Berlin), circus, art gallery, sports club (Bezirksliga), building (former Berlin-Mitte city council), countless companies (just google them) and so on. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 01:25, Sep 10, 2004 (UTC)


 * As I said, I cannot find any source for your theory. That's why I guess it is fiction, not a fact. Actually I know that the name "Berolina" is quite present in Berlin, because of the 7,5 meter high statue designed by Emil Hundrieser, placed on Alexanderplat in 1895. The "Berolina-Haus" of architect Peter Behrens by the way is placed on Alexanderplatz, close to the place of the former statue which hat been destroyed (melted) in 1944. urban-b 09:39, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * It doesn't seem like a fiction to me, but I can't find a source right now. Anyway, the name for the statue must've come from somewhere. Also, the fact that Berolina (alias Berolinum) is still the Latin name for Berlin should give us a clue here. [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 10:42, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)


 * If you speak German, you should check this link: history of berlin and you'll see there's nothing to verify your theory. By the way, Berolina isn't still the Latin name, but the Latin translation for Berlin. So no proof here. urban-b 11:00, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * Urban-b, this is not my theory, this is just a piece of info I read a long time ago. Also, I don't read German so I can't use the article you provide. Does it mention what was the Slavic name before the Germanic tribes came? Finally, what is the difference between a Latin name and Latin translation of a name? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 11:51, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * If you write stuff like this down here, you should be able to give at least one source for that, otherwise it is your theory. The difference between a Latin name and a Latin translation derives from the fact that Latin is a "dead" language. And I don't think, any ancient Roman has given the name Berolina or Berolinum to the city. That's why it seems likely to me that Berolina is simply a translation of the name Berlin into Latin, which could have been given e.g. in the 16th century or later. urban-b 12:24, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * The fact that I don't remember who said "Cartaginem delendam esse" does not mean that it was me who said that. And Latin indeed is a dead language, but it wasn't until 19th century. I don't get your point. Could you elaborate please? [[User:Halibutt|Halibutt]] 14:21, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)


 * See, that's the difference. I know that Cato said "Ceterum censeo Cartaginem delendam esse". My point by now is that this discussion leads nowhere from here. Actually it is no longer on the topic I started. So lets end it or you start research on the "Berolina"-issue. Historically, here in Berlin there is no proof to be found for this. That's why it would have been interesting to know where you got this from. But you can't help, can you? urban-b 15:13, Sep 14, 2004 (UTC)

Berlin Hauptbahnhof-Lehrter Bahnhof
Can someone more knowledgable than I add a few lines on the new train station? I believe it will be the world's largest? de.wikipedia has a fine big page Seabhcán 16:44, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * OK I´ll try the next couple of days IsarSteve 17:18, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC) until then three day old shots

Berlin as a state
The article says "Berlin used to be part of Brandenburg, but became a separate city state in 1920." This is wrong. Correct is: Berlin used to be part of the state of Prussia, province Brandenburg (provinces used to be the administrative subunits of Prussia). This did not change in 1920. In 1920, "Greater Berlin" was created by incorporating several neighouring municipalities into the city of Berlin, but its status as a municipality inside the state of Prussia did not change then. In 1946 only, Prussia was officially dissolved by the Allies, and new states were created by reshuffling territories large style. Berlin became a state only then. The fact that it became separated from the surrounding Soviet zone into a quasi 5th zone of Germany practically forced it into becoming one. At the same time, Brandenburg state was created. Please can the original author correct this error? wolfgang 17/04/2005, not a wiki member

I am going to change the reference to Berlin as a "city-state". While it may be conventional in German to refer to Berlin and other cities that are also Länder (Bremen, Hamburg) as "Staatstädte", the term "city-state" in English implies sovereignty, which Berlin lacks. In English, "city-state" typically refers to entities like ancient Athens, medieval Venice, early modern Hamburg, or the modern Vatican City or Singapore that are truly independent. Marco polo 15:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * City-state explicitly lists Berlin as one of the modern "city-states" and explains the difference between city-states such as Singapur and Berlin, Vienna, or Moscow. Do you think it is really necessary to remove it? --Johnnyw 15:52, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Johnny: I just think that it is misleading to an English speaker to use "city-state" for anything other than a sovereign state, since that is its normal meaning. I understand what it means to call Berlin a "city-state", but that is because I understand German and the term Staatstadt and because I know Berlin's political status. But I think we have to write for English speakers who are unfamiliar with Berlin or Germany.  If we really wanted to use the term "city-state", I think that we would need to stop and explain that the term is not being used in its usual English sense.  But the article is long enough as it is.  I think that it is clearer just to explain Berlin's status, as I have done. Marco polo 01:57, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Berlin 3rd largest city in EU
Since Russia is no member of the European Union, Moscow cannot be the largest city.

Pronunciation
In what dialect is the current pronunciation? Is it supposed to be colloquial? Is it specific for Berlin itself?

Peter Isotalo 13:07, 21 August 2005 (UTC)


 * standard german (hochdeutsch).Longbow4u 11:33, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * If that's Hochdeutsch, then what is supposed to be a transcription of (the one that is preceded by a link to German language)? I have studied a reasonable amount of German and I have a High German phonology at my disposal in the IPA handbook which doesn't quite agree with your rather terse answer. Let's continute the discussion over there, though.
 * Peter Isotalo 11:01, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I am native German speaker. I don`t know about the transcription. Perhaps it is flawed. I know how to pronounce Berlin. It is possible that people from Berlin pronounce it differently. But Berlin has it's proper dialect different from Hochdeutsch called Berlinerisch. See German dialects for more information. I consider myself speaker of hochdeutsch, comparable to English Received Pronunciation. Longbow4u 11:33, 27 August 2005 (UTC)


 * My guess is that the pronunciation with the short /i/ is more of a colloquialism, but since I've never been to Berlin, I can't tell for sure. Even if it is a dialect of Berlin, I would not recommend it, since I don't think that place names should ever be pronounced with any particular favor to a local dialect. They should be pronounced as close as possible to the most neutral-sounding common spoken standard of the particular country or language sphere. The best way to decide is to go by the most common pronunciation in broadcast media.
 * Peter Isotalo 09:51, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


 * I'm a native German, I know the transcription and I guarantee that is absolutely correct and I think that there is no other way to pronounce the word "Berlin".

1936 Hitler quote, edit war
Hitler's quote is rhetorical blurb that could be applied to any olympic event, so it's only loosely related to the 1936 Berlin games, and completely unrelated to the city, i.e. its inhabitants, geography, architecture or history. If, to some wikipedians, a Berlin article is incomplete without a corresponding Hitler quote, the should dig it out. However, a quote worth mentioning should be poignant, witty and original – not really Hitler’s forte. --Tickle me 06:35, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * Seconded! Ianb 07:19, 12 September 2005 (UTC)
 * I´ll sign up to that too!IsarSteve 12:15, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

deletion of "Worldview"
US sociologist and theologist Peter L. Berger called Berlin the world's capital of Atheism...: Obviously, one man's statement doesn't represent the world's view. Besides, assertions are not wikipedic. --Tickle me 11:27, 24 September 2005 (UTC)


 * OT: Arguably, that ol' urban sprawl is stuffed with atheists indeed, unlike e.g. Bagdad, Riyadh, Waco and ...Prairie Chapel Ranch. See for yourself, if this is such a bad thing. --Tickle me 13:37, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Picture of 1999 building works
I have a picture of an East Berlin skyline in 1999 from the Reichstag showing like 13 construction cranes. I should do some brightness balancing. Do you want it uploaded or is the article illustrated enough? --Error 01:59, 2 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Your pictures are always welcome at wikipedia's media repository, where all wikis can use them. Do you want it uploaded or is the article illustrated enough?: Decide for yourself. --Tickle me 06:11, 2 October 2005 (UTC)

Removal of bh.org.il link as spam
IMO the removed link "The Fasanenstrasse Synagogue" doesn't qualify as spam, especially as the wikipedia article on the New Synagogue is still a stub. I added the link there, hopefully, its text will be integrated with that article. --Tickle me 21:45, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

Page one / District usage
In the Organisation part it says: 12 Bezirke (boroughs), 90 Stadtteile (districts). I've never heared about the 90 districts before, although I just lived in Berlin for a while. Where does this information come from? Does anybody have another source that figures this number or can this simply be considered wrong? Apart from that, I think for "Bezirke" the word "districts" should be used instead of "boroughs". According to the article Borough, this word is only used in some specific regions, which don't include Berlin. "Stadtteile" basically means "parts of the city", which can have any meaning, where "Bezirke" really means "official districts". Luzian 21:20, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Ok sorry, after some more research I found the Stadtteile, although i found 94 of them! And still I question the usage of boroughs for Bezirke. Suggestion: districts/quarters for Bezirke/Stadtteile. Or districts/areas, or administrative disctricts/districts. Any other suggestions? :) Luzian 21:44, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

Indeed, the translation of "Bezirk" into Borough sounds plain wrong. There are many many cases where the German word "bezirk" is being one-to-one translated to the English word "district". So, it has to be 13 town districts. The term "stadtteil" (literally "town part") or "ortsteil" does not have such a direct translation but that does not make it right to stick "district" in the place filling the higher subdivision with "borough". May be the current translation is just a result of the district reform where some older "Stadtbezirke" (city districts) were promoted up to "Verwaltungsbezirk" (division district) while some others were degraded to "Stadtteil" being the next subdivision of a district. In the first years there was indeed some confusion of what attribute to give a certain administrative town part but it has settled to a short "Bezirk" (district) for the 13 primary divisions and "Stadtteil" (town part) for the 94 secondary divisions.

Anyway, I'd prefer to pick "subdistrict" as the best translation as it carries all the associtions that match fine with this secondary division level. It would also match with Frankfurts different notion of a "Stadtteil" (it has three levels), so that it can be easily established as the best one-to-one translation of the word into English. Guidod 03:07, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I changed some details in that paragraph last week. The subdivisions of the Bezirke is "Ortsteile" in German (I changed that already). The meaning of that word is very well defined concerning Berlin. "Stadteil" is of course an established word in German but has ambiguous meanings. Ortsteile have official boundaries which are shown in some better maps, even though they are not administrative units as such (The administration uses them in reference to locations, such as places of birth etc, which is why they need an exact definition anyway). The previous version of the article claimed that Ortsteile were established with the reform in 2001. That is wrong, they've existed since the formation of Greater Berlin in 1920 (also corrected by me), even though some have been rearranged recently. Then there are even smaller neighbourhoods who have traditional names known colloquially, and are usually mentioned in maps, but have no official administrative status and no defined boundaries. This fact is not mentioned in the article, but maybe it's not important enough that it should; or should it? Languagewhise I suggest "boroughs" for Bezirke, since that's the name of comparable units in Greater London and New York City. The word "Subdistricts" links to a China related article, maybe not such a good choice. I'm not a native speaker, but perhaps "neighbourhood" or "local community" or somesuch is better? The German should be "Ortsteil" as explained above Anorak2 13:40, 18 December 2005 (UTC)


 * That bears a slight misconception - the district reform 2001 did introduce a administrative subdivsion called "Ortsteil"


 * No it did not, that was my point. "Ortsteil" as administrative subunits have existed since 1920, see for example
 * http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~tkleber/vl1.htm#11
 * Regards Anorak2 10:48, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * which conflicts with earlier usage of the word for a non-administrative urban area - the latter might be best translated as "neighbourhood" or "local community" but that is not a good choice for the administrative term. The daily speak in Berlin has changed over the years to use "Stadtteil" for the administrative variant as that term is already present in the language and it is used for administrative subdivsions of city districts all about.
 * The second thing is about borough vs district. The term "bezirk" translates to districts. Stop. The usage of the term is more related to borough. So, in a way one wants to call the article section as "boroughs of berlin" but translations of the German term be fitted onto district. Be aware that the German language uses "bezirk" for other (and larger) administrative parts as well, including county level or federal level. Comparable to English usage there is usually a prefix tag to denote the level of a district/Bezirk.
 * (by the way, I was wondering whether "Stadteil" = Borough, but I dumped the idea as it seems to be on a different level of administration even that the German term is used for city parts of very different sizes) Guidod 08:46, 20 December 2005 (UTC)


 * Well, that delves into a discussion that should better be moved to the German de:Portal:Berlin. AFAIR, the reference subdivisions were usually refererred to as "Stadtteil" in history as well, but there was no administrative name being set as standard by law (!!) which is the point that I am referring to. So, pretty much an< urban area was possibly be called "Ortsteil" and perhaps in some official documents the district subdivision were named as "consisting of Orteil". The situation has changed - the administrative subdivision has been set to a strict "Ortsteil" by law, and it took a few years of confusion after which common usage has settled back to Stadtteil - just look at the frontpage of de:Berlin where it reads "Gliederung: 12 Bezirke, 95 Stadtteile". Sure, we explain on the detail page what it is called according to law (Verwaltungsbezirk/Ortsteil) but the shorter common usage is "Bezirk/Stadtteil" nevertheless. And that includes local authorities AFAICS. Anyway, if you want to discuss such historics then please move it to the German platform and keep the English page for a translation that gives the reader some fine knowledge about the current state of affairs in the area. 194.231.22.154 21:34, 25 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I think we should discuss it here as the wrong information crops up in the English version only :). There is no disagreement about Bezirke or Ortsteile in any of the German Berlin-related articles (that I'm aware of). To clarify my statements:
 * Administrative subdivisions of "Bezirke", with defined boundaries, have been shown on maps of Greater Berlin since 1920 (not on all maps, but some of the more detailed ones). These subdivisions have been called "Ortsteile" since then. Many locals may have not been aware of this fact, maybe that is the source of the confusion.
 * The basic Bezirke->Ortsteile hierarchy was not changed, much less created in 2001. The only thing that really changed was that some of the "Bezirke" were merged.
 * Another minor change was in the aftermath of the reform during the years 2002 - 2004, when some of the Ortsteile were rearranged (creation of new ones, or altering boundaries in some places). Again, this does not change the basic fact that Ortsteile as administrative units did exist before.
 * If you have conflicting information, please cite your source. My source are various maps from the 1920, 1950s, 1980s and onwards in my possession, who show "Ortsteile" _with boundaries_, i.e. as administrative units. And this source http://www.statistik-berlin.de/statistiken/rbs/gebietsreform-internet.pdf says that Ortsteile were changed in 2001, which implies they've existed before. Anorak2 11:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)
 * <-- rag left

I have already raised a question about the usage of terms in the mentioned place - it says to keep the current usage of 'Ortsteil'. May be I should note that a large portion of the original Berlin district articles were started by my very self and introducing the notion of non-administrative Orsteil under the shorthand term 'Ortslage' to leave the short term 'Ortsteil' as being used in official documents. The thing is that many of the newly created 'Ortsteil's (in the years 2001-onwards) were existing as urban areas long before that just like many of the administrative 'Ortsteil's have a history in the time before 1920. So, it seems Stadtteil is a street name for Ortsteil and being used interchangeably. So be it.

Anyway, that has driven us away from the original question of how to translate the urban area terminology. Even that I would like to call bezirk:district as a 1:1 translation that should be kept, we are still left with 'Ortsteil' that may or may not have a history of being called under a shorthand term of 'district' in common English usage. I had a choice but what to make of it as far as you may stand offended about it. It definitely should be settled on a thing care that I am not around in en.wiki all too often. Guidod 20:25, 27 December 2005 (UTC)


 * I have not made any changes to the existing uses of "borough" and "district", but it would be clearer if the heading and the running text used the same English term consistently. I would like to put in a vote for "borough", but if the consensus favors "district", let's use it in the heading as well.  While German-English dictionaries do list "district" as the primary translation of "Bezirk", "district" is a very generic term referring to many types of small regions.  In the urban context, at least in American usage, "district" usually connotes a much smaller area than the Berliner Bezirke (e.g., "central business district" and "retail district", although "school districts" vary widely in size). The word "district" is almost never used in English for an urban administrative subdivision.  The word "borough" clearly refers to an urban administrative subdivision in both American and British usage.  In the United States, the five boroughs of New York City are well known.  Several U.S. states have urban administrative subdivisions called boroughs.  In the United Kingdom, London is divided into boroughs, and urban administrative subdivisions elsewhere in the U.K. are called boroughs as well.  While the list in the Wikipedia article Borough of places where this term is used does not include Berlin, the list contains only English-speaking places where "borough" is an official term.  Berlin is not in the list because the official term there is "Bezirk".  But the question is precisely what is the best translation for this.  I would argue that the places known in English as "boroughs" are more like Berliner Stadtbezirke than places known in English as "districts". Above all, though, let's be consistent! Marco polo 02:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * One more point in favor of "borough": Where boroughs exist in the English-speaking world, they almost always have elected governments, including a borough council and executive. Thus Berliner Bezirke are functionally like boroughs in the English-speaking world.  The same cannot be said of districts in the Anglophone world. Districts may or may not have elected governments, and indeed may or may not be administrative units. Marco polo 13:23, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I was hoping to get some response to my comments above, because our usage ("boroughs" in the heading and in some references, "districts" elsewhere) really needs to be consistent. Please read my comments and let me know if I am missing a reason why Bezirke should not be translated as "boroughs." I propose "subdivisions" for Stadtteile. If I don't get any counterarguments by February 6, I will implement those changes. Thanks. Marco polo 17:01, 3 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Since there has been no decisive response here or at the village pump, I've decided to translate Bezirk as "borough", with an introductory note giving both the German term and the alternative translation as "district". Britannica uses "district", but Encarta and the English-language web page of the  Berlin city government both use "borough" for Bezirk.  As for Ortsteil, I could not find a standard English translation.  "Subdistrict" has no clear meaning in English.  It is not a commonly used word.  "Neighbourhood" kind of works, but it often refers to areas smaller than Berlin's Ortsteile, and we might want to use "neighbourhood" for one of those smaller areas in Berlin, such as the Kollwitzplatz neighbourhood within the Prenzlauer Berg Ortsteil.  Therefore, I will use "locality", which pretty well captures the functional meaning of Ortsteil, and I will introduce it in the same way that I introduce "borough", giving the German term and the alternative translation as "subdistrict".  This way, people searching with any of these terms will find what they want, and we can have both consistency and precision in our use of terms. Marco polo 19:37, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup
I have just recently seen that the article has been tagged. If any of you might be so kind and list the precise issues with which we have to deal it would be appreciated. Since I am a native, I hope I am able to contribute accordingly. --Johnnyw 22:35, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
 * If the article doesn't need a cleanup, I will remove the tag in the next couple of days.--Johnnyw 21:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It needs a history section for a start. When a breakout article is created it is not appropriate to delete the whole subject from the main article. Merchbow 06:33, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

Brandenburg
Brandenburg has never been a duchy but a march. The prince of Brandenburg was called margrave and became elector, later. A duchy was Prussia. Duke of Prussia became the elector of Brandenburg in the 17th century.


 * I'm not sure how the titles translate into English.
 * Anyway, Brandenburg was initially a "Markgrafschaft" (probably margravate), later became the right to elect the German king and was hence renamed "Kurfürstentum" (probably electorate, maybe duchy). Even later it became a "Königreich" (kingdom), at the same time it was renamed Prussia. So Prussia never was a Duchy.
 * Anorak2 10:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Not exactly. Prussia (the territory later commonly called "Ostpreußen", Eastern Prussia, in what is today Poland and Lithuania) was a duchy, first under sovereignty of the Polish king. In 1618, it fell to the Hohenzollern Electors of Brandenburg.
 * In 1701, the Duke of Prussia and Elector of Brandenburg assumed the title of "King in Prussia". As king is the higher honour, the use of this title became common. Varana 18:14, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Capital of Brandenburg?
Not Potsdam? /(margravate- history section)/ Just making sure... Ksenon 05:06, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Some clarification:
 * Berlin used to be capital of the ancient margravate Brandenburg, which later mutated into Prussia. This is how it came to be German capital in the first place. Potsdam was of no particular relevance then. It later gained some importance because the Prussian kings erected theire "leisure" castle there (compare: London <-> Windsor)
 * In 1815, the name Brandenburg got reused as an administrative subdivision ("Provinz") of Prussia. Its capitals used to be Potsdam and Berlin intermittently (see http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinz_Brandenburg). Even after Berlin was excluded from Brandenburg to forme its own province in 1920, it remained Brandenburg's capital until 1945.
 * Of course Potsdam is capital of the modern (post-1945) state of Brandenburg, which Berlin is not part of.
 * Anorak2 10:35, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Use Infobox City?
I noticed San Diego, California uses {{Infobox City, any reason why Berlin doesn't use Template:Infobox_City for its similar fine tabular info? See WikiProject_Cities --Skierpage 06:05, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

{{Clear}}

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