Talk:Beverley Allitt

Redirect
fixed the redirction to Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy - Zephirum — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zephirum (talk • contribs) 08:16, 2 November 2004 (UTC)

13 life sentences?
Does anyone have any information on why she received 13 life sentences for 4 murders? That seems a bit overkill. What were the other 9 for? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.239.189.53 (talk) 04:08, 21 November 2005 (UTC)


 * She was convicted for murder and attempted murder. There were a total of 13 victims (4 of which are dead). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.85.244.71 (talk) 19:04, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

Spelling of first name
Beverly Allitt (Correct...there is no "e" before the y in Beverly...source: birth certificate) She was given a life sentence by Mr Justice Latham for every charge she was convicted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.104.233.189 (talk) 06:54, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


 * I think the issue here is that if one applies the naming conventions for Wikipedia article titles, the most common recognizable name that is used in the article's sources that gets used to identify a person, not the official name that appears on their birth certificate. This is about what is verifiable from the available sources, so if the sources get it wrong, so will Wikipedia. If you have evidence that the name has been incorrectly spelled, then please cite a source for the mistaken name being used in the reporting. Alternatively, if some sources spell the name differently, then explain the alternative versions of the person's name exist and are being used in some of the sources. Wikipedia reports information that is verifiable; although this is not necessarily true and accurate. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 11:41, 9 September 2023 (UTC)

Victim list
The list of victims looks out of place. It's a bit like a memorial. Something on the characteristics of the victims and the means of murder would be appropriate, but I don't think this is the right way to do it. --TS 21:19, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Remove alias?
An alias is a false name used to conceal ones identity.

I don't think 'Angel of Death' can be said to be an alias.

Thoughts on removal / change? Lukeyboyuk (talk) 11:33, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Motives
"Allitt's motives have never been fully explained."

Well, are any serial killer's? Hers are significantly more well understood than many, if you look at the sources--her incarceration in the mental hospital as well as the expert psychiatric testimony during the trial conclude the mentioned Munchhausen's diagnosis. I'd say that's a pretty full explanation, as they go. CrashCart9 (talk) 14:50, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

What was not explained is why Allits crimes began 'when' they did. Munchausen's Syndrome by Proxy was actually dismissed as the motive by the enquiry into Ward 4. A curious legal point was that there was no physical evidence linking Allit to any of the crimes and no witnesses who had seen Allit do anything remotely criminal. She was convicted on the strength of being at the scene of each crime. At Rampton Allit gave an explanation of what she had done.Johnwrd (talk) 22:43, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Munchausen’s Syndrome is when people may lie about or fake symptoms, hurt themselves to bring on symptoms, or alter tests (such as contaminating a urine sample). Allitt did these when she was much younger. Allitt would wear bandages and casts over wounds to draw attention to herself, and refused to allow the injuries to be examined. Her parents had to constantly switch different medical doctors because they would see that she was lying about her illnesses. Once she got older, she even faked being pregnant to her boyfriend. The Psychopathology Model is a model is a mental disorder. It has four components that deal with the way it effects a person. Genetic, biological, psychological and social causes. Allitt was showing signs of Munchausen’s her behavior elicited her reactions. Allitt began to harm her young patients in order to become noticed. Allitt was desperate for attention. Although it was obvious that Allitt caused this harm to the children, she refused to c0nfess what she had done. While awaiting trial, she lost weight rapidly, and developed anorexia nervosa, and she developed deeper into her psychological problems as well. Nkhatoun (talk) 15:41, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

A span of sixty days
Originally, the spree was described as a span of fifty-eight days. On September 16, 2007 it was changed to 15 days for some reason. In actuality Feb 21-April 22 is a span of 60 days. Aepryus (talk) 03:43, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Potentially random graffiti
But just removed this from the victims list: jocelynn griffin' (then two weeks) -asthma attack and believed to be killed by thrown away

Pretty bad English, and can't find any references to this person. Parking it here just in case it's something relevant though (I was just browsing through, and know NOTHING on the subject). PruitIgoe (talk) 21:31, 24 May 2011 (UTC)PruitIgoe

Plea
How did she plead at her trial? The article doesn't say. --Viennese Waltz 08:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I understand that she did plea guilty, though it seems clear that this was because her conviction was inevitable and she would get a lighter sentence by pleading guilty (she claimed to be innocent for a long time). There may be a difference between her pleas at the lower court and at the appeal court. There was an appeal, right? Richard Gill (talk) 03:18, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Work History?
Is there any information about her work history? How long had she been working at Grantham & Kesteven? If she was new you would think she would have more supervision than was apparently the case here? Had she been a nurse there for a while and then suddenly started the killings? Had she worked at any other hospitals or care facilities since then? When did she get her nursing degree or license? There's so very little detail here. If she had been in nursing for a while, was there any inquiry about any of her former patients/ Ileanadu (talk) 21:18, 9 September 2014 (UTC)


 * I have just read a book (in German translation) about the crimes, Davis,Nick: Murder on Ward Four (published 1993). The author stresses the bad financial situation caused by a restructuring of the NHS, which lead to a severe shortage of qualified personnel - only two fully qualified doctors, assisted by doctors who had just finished university and did not have experience with children, not enough nurses, most like the doctors without special paediatric training, all staff was overworked - this was the main reason she was even admitted to work there without adequate supervision. (Excuse my English...) 2003:7A:8E10:8562:9934:48B8:8950:DFEF (talk) 18:28, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

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After tv-document
Added this after tv-document, which is the base element for my edits. This document punctured most her way to give too much insuline. But the other way of her harming children was purely to give via iv. fresh pure air. Hörpötti (talk) 19:15, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

Kayley
Presumably the Kayley Desmond in the recovered victims section is the girl who later became known as Kayley Asher.

If so "recovered" may need caveating? https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/survivor-killer-nurse-beverley-allitt-7724979

90.252.117.157 (talk) 22:07, 21 March 2021 (UTC)


 * Yes. Desmond was her birth surname, Asher was her adopted surname.
 * The reason I know this?
 * I once dated Kayley's older sister while I was a student at the University of Lincoln! Tdsnowdon (talk) 21:54, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Problems of serial killer nurse cases
I recently added this comment to the talk page on the Wikipedia page with lists of killers in the health care context []:
 * "The lists here are lists of persons *convicted* of multiple murders. I study statistical issues in investigating and prosecuting alleged Health Care Serial Killers. There are several academic papers listing known cases and studying the characteristics of the convicted persons. This leads to something called "red flag" lists which are prepared by, and intended for use by, criminologists, health care administrators, forensic psychologists, profilers. What is perhaps not recognised is that many of the cases collected by researchers from criminology and forensic psychology are disputed or disputable. (Of course, they will miss the ones who get away with it). In fact, from time to time the lists get revised and "red flags" inspired, for instance, by the Dutch case of Lucia de Berk, get removed from the newer lists. Also, a proviso gets added that the red flag of "high death rate on their shifts" is rather unreliable. OK, that's good. People have learnt about spurious correlations and about confounding factors.
 * "I think these red flag lists tell us what characteristics get someone *convicted* of being a serial killer. For instance, if you are a nurse and your fellow nurses gossip about you, and think you are a bit sinister person, and if you have just any history of psychiatric problems, judges and juries will be more easily convinced that you are a cold-blooded killer, even if there is almost no hard evidence again you.
 * "In the health care context, things are really difficult. The problem is that health care workers work in places where lots of people die "normally", ie, in the normal run of things. If a case is brought to trial, the court has to identify whether or not any murders took place, and only secondarily who is responsible for them, if there were any murders. It seems clear that the chance that any particular nurse you meet is a serial killer nurse is less than 1 in a million, see http://longtermcareinquiry.ca/wp-content/uploads/Exhibit-163 Expert-Report-of-Professor-Beatrice-Crofts-Yorker.pdf This means that evidence of ill-doing, and moreover, ill-doing by a particular person, needs to be very strong in order to overcome the prior odds of innocence. A second problem is that all information has to come from the hospital and from medical workers in the hospital. Such people are not forensic scientists. Their primary duty is to protect their patients and a secondary duty is to protect the reputation of their institution (in order to retain the confidence of their patients...). They are the ones who call in the police after having made their own internal investigations, and they have a high degree of control over information going to police investigators and to the courts. Of course, they consist of well-intentioned people doing the best they can in the context they find themselves.
 * "I think it is important to make it very clear that the *legal* category "serial killers" is not the same as the "moral" category "serial killers". This is obviously a problem for Wikipedia since "truth" is not a recognised criterium. The criterium "reliable sources" is objective, but it is a bureaucratic / legal criterium."

Studying the Beverley Allitt case, it strikes me especially hard that this Wikipedia article is based on the story of the "winners": the story of the prosecution, and the final conclusion of the jury, which adopted the story of the prosecution. OK, so they were convinced, and the proceedings were all legal and correct. Yet there are also cases of serial killer nurses who get convicted but whose cases are later overturned. I am a biased scientist working in this field, since I got involved in several such cases. It strikes me especially hard that the hard evidence that Beverley actually committed any crime is extremely weak. She did confess. There are several celebrated cases where indeed a hospital worker breaks down under intensive police interrogation and does confess. What would you do if you had the choice of going to jail for the rest of your life (if not, a death sentence) for multiple murders, or going to a psychiatric hospital for the rest of your life?

I'm not calling for the page to be changed in any way. I'm calling for fellow Wikipedia editors to be sensitive to the issues. Richard Gill (talk) 09:23, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

"Unknown toxic substances"
Neil Bradbury in his book "A Taste for Poison" says that it had been potassium chloride. Should we mention this substance in the article? BasileusAutokratorPL (talk) 21:50, 22 March 2023 (UTC)