Talk:Bobby Robson/Archive 1

(No subject)
Bobby Robsons managerial career should be covered in more depth, as it barely mentions his years spent outside England and the amount of titles he won.


 * Agreed. If I had the time I would but I'm rather buried in about 12 music articles right now! :) IainP (talk) 19:11, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've made a start on this request, the bare bones are now in place and I'll try to expand further as soon as I can. Budgiekiller 07:17, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've added a bit, now that it's collaboration of the week, maybe it'll improve furtherAndymarczak 11:11, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I've had a turn at working the text. I see a reference to, but no other mention of his second turn at Eindhoven? Wiggy! 14:23, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I removed a reference to Robson bringing Ronaldo through the ranks at PSV. Robsons first spell with PSV was 1990-92; Ronaldo joined PSV in the 1994-95 season. Oldelpaso 11:55, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Indeed - Ronaldo did play under him, but it was at Barcelona - it was Sir Bobby who convinced the Barca president to buy Ronaldo, and it was Ronaldo who scored Barca's winning goal in the 1997 Cup Winners Cup final to give Sir Bobby his 2nd European Trophy.

Geordie
Bobby is not a geordie, he may support Newcastle but, as he is born in County Durham and nowhere near Newcastle or Tyneside he can't really be called a geordie. hedpeguyuk 13:30, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

CBE or KBE
The first line of this article reads:

"Sir Robert William Robson CBE"

Should it not be KBE rather than CBE since he has been knighted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ben467 (talk • contribs)


 * I'm not sure what WP (or come to that official British) policy is, but in any case the knighthood is implicit in the "Sir". See also Jimmy Savile. You'd tend to use the post-nominal letters in the case of an honorary knight (like Bob Geldof) who has the knighthood but is not entitled to use "Sir" as he's not a British citizen. Terry Wogan is a bit of a special case as he was an Irish citizen when knighted (so wasn't entitled to "Sir") but later took British nationality. Tonywalton | Talk 09:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * It's probably worth asking on the Village Pump, where someone a good deal more knowledgeable than me will probably know the answer, come to think about it. Tonywalton | Talk 09:59, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
 * Technically it should be KBE as they are part of the same order, but he styles himself as CBE because that was awarded for his services as England manager. I know because I had a plaque made for an opening he did and had to make sure it was correct.

Wor Bobby?
I have heard this in relation to Bobby Charlton, but, dispite his NorthEastern roots, never in freference to Bobby Robson. I know that the Infobox is not the place for citations, but do people genuinely refer to BR as "Wor Bobby"? Kevin McE 20:05, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

He's not Bryan's dad
I'm not a big football fan, but I often wondered if he was related to Bryan Robson, and someone once told me that he was indeed the father of Ex footballer Bryan Robson. i later did some research and found out that this wasn't true, and to be honest I didn't think it was, but I had to make sure. And after doing my research I also saw a programme where Bryan Robson refered to Bobby Robson as Bobby Robson not Dad! So this was definate proof they aren't related. But the thing is, a lot of non football fans might think that they are father and son. So don't you think that this should be pointed out in the trivia section of this article?--loren3 21:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
 * Good point - it might even be worth a disambiguation-style header or more likely something in the first paragraph of the article (along the lines of "He is not related to Tony Blair, the British Prime Minister" in the article about Ian Blair), if this is a commonly-held misconception. Be bold, and try putting something in! Tonywalton | Talk 22:37, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia
Minor thing i know, but why is Robson's claim that Shay Given is the best goalkeeper in Europe in the trivia section? It almost makes it look like a riddiculous suggestion. I dont think he is, but it is not an outlandish idea. Any thoughts? Evomutant 14:46, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Trivia is not meant to imply 'trivial', it's simply minor points or interesting facts that don't fit logically in the main body of the article lawsonrob 17:12, 13 December 2006


 * I don't see the relevance of this fact to Robson's life. Would it not be better placed on Given's Page? Ben467 16:02, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Role with the Republic
This needs some explanation. --Dweller 17:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
 * I've heard him referred to as Staunton's 'adviser', but to be honest I'm not sure how involved he is now, especially with his recent health problems. 82.29.19.104 12:56, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

IMAGE
Surely someone must have an image of the great man that can be used on here in his infobox? IT's one of the main things missing from the article (which you've improved a lot by the way). Sir-Nobby 13:39, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
 * Also, can someone crop that picture of Bryan Robson? Sir-Nobby 23:52, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
 * How about adding the image of his autobiography in the infobox? Dave101 →talk  09:25, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well done for adding that photo. Now it just needs one for the infobox. The article's coming along very nicely. Sir-Nobby 19:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you look on Flickr to see if there's a free image you can use. 82.29.19.104 19:31, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I'm in discussion with some people close to ITFC to get a free image... watch this space. The Rambling Man 20:36, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

How are the discussions with them going RM? I was wondering if we could also add a screenshot of SBR from the Carlsberg pub team advert. Sir-Nobby 17:38, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
 * This is the best image I can find on Flickr. By the look of the license we wouldn't be able to modify it though. Dave101 →talk  15:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
 * My contact who has a contact at the club (sounds dubious, I know, but the guy I know runs the biggest and most comprehensive ITFC site on the web) is waiting for the people he needs to get permission from to come back from holidays (since we're now between seasons I guess quite a few of the backroom folk get a brief holiday!) - I'll keep you posted! The Rambling Man 15:25, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So anyone know if we could include a Carlsberg screenshot? Sir-Nobby 17:03, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Rejecting Newcastle?
I'm sure Robson said in his interview with Gary Linekar that he had the chance to sign for either Newcastle as well as Fulham when he was young. He spoke of how disappointed it made his father (a Newcastle fan) when he opted for Fulham. I think I also read this in Farewell but not Goodbye. Can anyone confirm this and if so could it be added to the article? Sir-Nobby 18:00, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * It says in his autobiography on Tales From the Riverbank, p.19:

"I suppose it might seem perverse, even now that I turned down my beloved Newcastle to start a new life in the capital, and decided to play for Fulham, with whom I had no emotional connection. The fact is that Newcastle made no appreciable effort to secure my signature, unlike Bill, who encouraged me to think I would be highly regarded from the moment I stepped off the train".

He also states that as well as Newcastle and Middlesbrough, he could have joined Sunderland, Lincoln, Blackpool, Huddersfield or Southampton (before choosing Fulham). Sir-Nobby 17:32, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

How much is Ronaldo?
The article says 12 megapounds, reference a couple lines below - 20. This needs to be investigated. Max S em 18:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Ref'd to 19m euros. The Rambling Man 15:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

GA on hold
The GA reviewer with the most annoying focus and insistence on article comprehensivity [sic?] has just walked into the room.....Ideally....in my world, I would have 160k on main text on Keith Miller......just see how I did on Bob Simpson (cricketer)....it was 4 screen lengths instead of 2.5 even though Robson has been coaching twice as long and football managers have way more influnce than cricket coaches!!!!......or Ian Thorpe who only raced at international level for 7 years....and even though there is only one big weeklong competition for the whoel year!!!  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 06:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
 * From a thorough reading of the article, prose, MOS, NPOV, NOR and the images are in order
 * The article is quite "broad" although in my mind, the playing career is not really detailed enough...The guy plated almost 600 first class games in his career, so that should really be a lot bigger than it is, given that he also represented his country 20 times and played in two world cups....at least another para please....or two....or three :)
 * I also think that given the media flak always accompanying English managers, that the national team part should be larger.
 * Given the size of the other sections, the NUFC section seems a bit bloated... 5 years at a club that was only sometimes in the Champions League and didn't win the domesttic silverware ....has more than managing teams like PSV, Barca and Porto which won some stuff at domesttic and European level.....I'm not asking you to hack down NUFC, heavens no, I think a fork to a Bobby Robson as manager of Newcastle United Football Club would be best and then a minor trim down on the main page....Of course in time, Robson's article would ideally be 2-3 times longer (including the relevant forks) but that isn't an issue here for GA.......


 * PS, you know how I am TRB, I will get sidetracked when I write articles on big people....see all the associated paraphernalia I've diverged into since I started on Ngo Dinh Diem........ Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 06:23, 10 August 2007 (UTC)


 * thanks for the expansions. Ideally, the England coach would get more, but for the moment it's a good GA.  Blnguyen  ( bananabucket ) 08:45, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
 * England expansion is coming right up. Thanks.  The Rambling Man 08:48, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor weaselling in the lead
Do we know how many football knights there have been? Is there a list article? Can we create a stub and link to it? --Dweller 09:28, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Well, we have Category:Football knights... The Rambling Man 09:52, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

✅ --Dweller 10:42, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Minor problem
No reference is made to Robson actually signing forms with Middlesborough, just ignoring the fact that he had! --Dweller 10:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is a problem and I can't seem to solve it so I think we may need to axe the claim. The ESPN reference at least mentions that he was offered a contract at Ayresome Park when he was 15... so we'll probably have to make do with that.  The Rambling Man 10:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * I've removed offending "forms" business. The Rambling Man 10:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That's better. --Dweller 10:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Vancouver
Did Robson make any appearances for them? --Dweller 11:53, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * There's no record of him making any appearances, just managing them. The Rambling Man 12:06, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"local parks"
Please can someone confirm that this is a quote from the book, as it's certainly not from the website that it seems to be cited against. --Dweller 12:56, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Quote from the book confirmed. The Rambling Man 12:57, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ta. --Dweller 13:13, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Robson as Eng manager
Text implies that he became manager just before England competed in the World Cup final. I think that more relevant than referring to the final, the date should be related to England's dismissal from the tournament, along the lines of "shortly after England had been knocked out of..." Comments? --Dweller 13:46, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed, the emphasis should be on the fact that it was only two days after England failed to beat Spain in the 82 WC and as a consequence were knocked out. The Rambling Man 14:20, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In fact, I've already changed it thus. Hurrah.  The Rambling Man 14:24, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

1990 World Cup
Two things: 1) No mention of qualification. 2) No mention of the controversy around the shift from 4-4-2 to a sweeper system. Did or didn't it come from Robson himself? In fact, if that's OR-ish (should be something V on it) mention should be made of the tactical shift anyway, because it transformed the side. --Dweller 10:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Okay, both fair points:
 * The qualification could be covered briefly, undefeated, finishing second in the qualifying group to Sweden as shown here ✅
 * Yes, the switch to sweeper was his choice. In Robson's words, "...I made the switch, not them. I had no intention of allowing Van Basten and Gullit to rip holes in us...". (p.132 of his autobiography).  The Rambling Man 10:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC) ✅
 * 1 - cool. 2 - he would say that, wouldn't he? lol. If I get a mo, I might hunt for some RS that disagree, but meanwhile, that's a definite inclusion. --Dweller 15:24, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Interesting this claims a player revolt. Probably worth using as differing perspective... The Rambling Man 12:09, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes please. And I'll do my best (no promises) to complete the copyedit today. If not, I think you can move on anyway, as it's very close to done and I can always finish it while the article's being reviewed. But gimme a couple more hours. --Dweller 12:11, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Honours
Knighthood and English hall of fame may fit chronologically in the NUFC regime, but thematically they don't. --Dweller 10:41, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * No, then they should be removed and placed left in the personal honours section. Deal? The Rambling Man 10:45, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Agreed. --Dweller 10:47, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Health
We skip from first to third cancer so there's a gap needs filling there... The Rambling Man 12:01, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Sounds like his dental history is missing too. --Dweller 12:03, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ooh, quite the comedian today, aren't we ?! The Rambling Man 12:05, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

On reflection, I think the health section is a little unencylcopedic and a bit Wikinewsy. If this was a bio of a dead person, we'd only include info about health issues that affected work, plus a line about a final illness. I'd suggest moving the whole thing into the somewhat thin personal life section and then ruthlessly pruning it. --Dweller 12:25, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * That sounds ideal. Perhaps just worth noting that he's beaten cancer four times and is still suffering now, with a fifth diagnosis. Keep the citations and prune away... The Rambling Man 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

Individual/personal honours
As these aren't "statistics", these should come out of the stats section. Again, could go to enhancing the personal life section. --Dweller 12:27, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine by me. The Rambling Man 12:28, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

BBC documentary
Not sure if this should be included at all, and if it must, where. --Dweller 12:29, 23 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Nah, wipe it, it's cruft. The Rambling Man 12:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

WBA club record
I've added the fact that Albion broke their club record to sign Robson. I'm not sure if there's such a thing as "too many" references, but that sentence does have quite a few. So if anyone does feel that it needs to be de-cluttered, this is just to let you know that the latest reference I have added (Albion!, Tony Matthews, 1987, p294) mentions all three of: the March 1956 date, the £25,000 fee and the fact that it was a WBA club record. So the preceding two references could, in theory, be removed. Cheers. --Jameboy 11:15, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Possibly move them all to the end of the sentence for tidiness, I don't think multiple references is a bad thing! Dave101 →talk  11:45, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
 * In the end I split it into two sentences to stop it turning into a drip feed of info. --Jameboy 19:16, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Albion captain

 * Robson was captain of West Bromwich Albion for the 1960–61 and 1961–62 seasons.

Source (wikified):

✅ ''Thanks, added and referenced... The Rambling Man 07:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)''

Departure from Albion
This is still problematic, given that Gaunt didn't become chairman until 1963. I've read further on this and hope the following excerpt - taken from pp 162-163 of "West Bromwich Albion - Soccer in the Black Country" by Peter Morris (Heinemann, 1965) - may help, or at least give some useful background:

"'Hagan was named as Albion's manager on April 10, 1963. Only a few hours before his appointment Major Harry Wilson Keys, then 70 years old, resigned as Chairman of the club to be succeeded by his vice-chairman, Mr Jim Gaunt, a director for ten years. And only eight days prior to this the club had announced Macauley's resignation. It was, curiously enough, the latter who recommended his successor to the club. At the time, there had been criticism of the Albion's wages policy–believed by many to be uncompetitive with other clubs–and for failing to sign top players who had become available for transfer. On the same day as the dual appointment of Mr Gaunt, as chairman, and Hagan as manager, the former declared publicly 'we made a mistake in having a rigid wages policy . . . there can be no doubt that it did not pay off in the matter of getting new players. What we saved in wages we lost in gate receipts. . . our aim is to bring back the image of the Albion in its best days and thus bring back supporters to The Hawthorns'.'"

I think it is therefore safe to assume that Robson either meant "chairman H Wilson Keys" or "vice-chairman Jim Gaunt", I would say probably the latter. In terms of the article, perhaps a footnote could be added, explaining the apparent inconsistency in Robson's testimony? btw I'm assuming that as this is a talk page, copyvio doesn't apply!
 * ✅ I'll make it vice chairman and add a note declaring the discrepancy... The Rambling Man 09:58, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Honours/position switch

 * Awarded Freedom of Ipswich in 2002 ✅
 * UEFA Special Lifetime award (apparently 2002 also, but source is not written specifically enough to be definite on the year)
 * Can't find anything else to back this at the moment... The Rambling Man 10:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Ah, found a ref in the NUFC page, hurrah. Re-using the named ref for this now. ✅ The Rambling Man 10:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Buckingham successfully converted Robson from a goalscoring inside-right into a creative right-half.
 * Not sure about this - was it just Buckingham who made this happen? Could fall foul of subjectivity... what do you think? The Rambling Man 10:11, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Happy to leave this out for now until I can get more supporting information on it. I thought Robson may have mentioned it in his book, but if he didn't then maybe it's not too significant anyway. --Jameboy 15:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

(Source = the existing source in the article named "WBA Whos Who")
 * Cool - are the page numbers still the same? I'll use a named reference unless you tell me otherwise.  The Rambling Man 10:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
 * Yes, same page numbers for the three bullet points above (202-203), so how you've referenced it in the article is fine. --Jameboy 15:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Robson and Newcastle
Is it worth including that Robson is now regularly seen at matches supporting Newcastle? Sir-Nobby 14:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Well done on FA status, but...
I do think there is still a major issue of neutrality that needs to be addressed:
 * Robson signed a new contract...with a verbal agreement that he would be allowed to leave if an English club made him an offer... the Porto chairman reneged on his verbal agreement. If there is dispute over whether such a clause ever existed, then the source cited here (Robson's autobiog) is not neutral, and I do not believe that we have any grounds to say more than that Robson claims that there was such a clause.  The current phrasing could be considered slanderous of the Porto chairman unless there is further evidence of its veracity.  Kevin McE 11:40, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
 * Commented it out now. I don't think it can ever be independently verified as it was, in Robson's words, a verbal agreement.  Oh well.  The Rambling Man 11:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Inter-Cities Fairs Cup (revert)
"During his time at Fulham, he was picked for the London XI in the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup."

I have just reverted the above addition because:
 * It is in the wrong place in the text.
 * It appears directly in front of an existing citation, so appears to be cited, which is misleading. It needs a citation of its own.
 * It should be more specific and say during which of his two spells at Fulham and in which year/season he played in the competition.

If the above are sorted out, it could be a useful addition to the article. Sorry if I'm being harsh in reverting, but this is a Featured Article, and needs to be closely scrutinized in order to maintain its high standard. --Jameboy 17:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)