Talk:Bombing of Bremen in World War II

USAAF
list of USAAF WWII raids, that was copied from USAF History Publications & wwii combat chronology (pdf). All files, are available as a ZIP archive in html format, and a ZIP archive in simple text format: ZIP archive in html format, and a ZIP archive in simple text format

I found the following dates when searching the archive for Bremen: --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 01:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
 * THURSDAY, 19 NOVEMBER 1942: Bremen added to the USAAF target list.
 * FRIDAY, 26 FEBRUARY 1943
 * SATURDAY, 17 APRIL 1943
 * SUNDAY, 13 JUNE 1943
 * FRIDAY, 25 JUNE 1943
 * FRIDAY, 8 OCTOBER 1943
 * SATURDAY, 13 NOVEMBER 1943
 * FRIDAY, 26 NOVEMBER 1943
 * MONDAY, 29 NOVEMBER 1943
 * THURSDAY, 2 DECEMBER 1943
 * MONDAY, 13 DECEMBER 1943
 * THURSDAY, 16 DECEMBER 1943
 * MONDAY, 20 DECEMBER 1943
 * SUNDAY, 18 JUNE 1944
 * SATURDAY, 24 JUNE 1944
 * SATURDAY, 22 JULY 1944
 * SATURDAY, 29 JULY 1944
 * FRIDAY, 4 AUGUST 1944
 * WEDNESDAY, 30 AUGUST 1944
 * SATURDAY, 16 SEPTEMBER 1944
 * TUESDAY, 26 SEPTEMBER 1944
 * THURSDAY, 12 OCTOBER 1944
 * SATURDAY, 24 FEBRUARY 1945
 * SUNDAY, 11 MARCH 1945
 * TUESDAY, 20 MARCH 1945
 * FRIDAY, 23 MARCH 1945
 * FRIDAY, 30 MARCH 1945

Second column
I have turned the second column back into a bomber command column. The whole point of the column is to allow the reader to view the raids by Bomber Command as well by the default of chronology. --PBS (talk) 12:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Retrograde step
I think it is a retrograde step for the reader of the article to group all the Web pages of the RAF Diary and the "Combat Chronology of the USAAF" into one reference. Although it is more work for the editor it is much better to structure the citation so it includes only the specific web page needed to source the attack. --PBS (talk) 12:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Uncontroversial edit
Dab replace one instance of gee with GEE, and replace 2nd mention of gee with unlinked GEE. This is surely uncontroversial, and is unrelated to the dispute occasioning current prot. User:Dog Day Today 15:48, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Done. -- Amalthea : Chat  20:13, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Protection
What's happening here. Why is this page protected and what is being done to resolve the situation?GraemeLeggett (talk) 10:07, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

There has been an edit war, with one of the participants not participating in a discussion on the talk page. The problems revolve around three points.
 * I think that Mugs2109's bundling of multiple web pages into one reference which is then cited multiple times instead of breaking them out into individual citations is a mistake.
 * The replacement of information in one column with other information. The information that was originally there was a list of bomber commands and Mugs2109 want to replace that with mission types. I think that information can go into the notes column (although we could have yet another column with that info). Mugs2109 thinks roundels in the notes column is enough information on which bomber command preformed which raid.
 * An disagreement over dates of a raid whether it happened on January 17/18 or on the 21/22 Onejob has edited in the former Mugs2109 the latter.

We are still waiting for Mugs2109 to respond on this talk page to any of these issues despite requests by Onejob and myself on Mugs2109's talk page to discuss these issues. --PBS (talk) 10:48, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Progress - what is missing from this article
I think that to move on here and bring the edit protection to an end we have to show what this article needs. Leaving aside formatting issues around the timeline for the moment lets look at structure then content.
 * 1) Separate note and references into two sections -one for the reflist etc and one for the full citation of sources used.
 * 2) external links section for those external images mentioned and any online links not meeting source quality
 * 3) see also - for any particularly related articles - related bombing attacks? I know just about every major city in German bombed is in the navbox but we can draw attention to pertinent ones here.
 * 4) the why - why was Bremen a target? Some possible targets are mentioned in passing but their strategic value is not explained. Is there any confusion between the city of Bremen, Bremerhaven and the State? The state doesn't exist pre 1947 so I presume all RAF diary entries are to the city.) The targets differ between the UK and US and across the duration of the war.
 * 5) the how - how did the Allies attack? some of this will be in the timeline, but does everyone read a timeline all the way through to the detail.
 * 6) what - what was the outcome of these attacks?
 * 7) Introduction - summarizing what is contained.

Any opinions on this sort of content? GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:54, 21 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Sounds good to me. --PBS (talk) 13:22, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Previous requests for discussion
Since Mugs2109 talk page carries the request to make posts to discuss on the relevant article talkpage, I've copied this from his talk page to here


 * "Please do not engage in a revert war without discussing changes on the talk page. If we can not reach agreement on the talk page and no one else joins in the conversation then we can ask for a third opinion on the issue. --PBS (talk) 18:44, 29 March 2009 (UTC)"


 * "Please would you NOT revert editing with talking about it. You are incorrect to list a raid as January 17/18. It was 21/22. I have the Wellington pilot (Wing Commander Ken Wallis MBE) sitting beside me and his log book open on the page!! --Onejob (talk) 17:10, 3 April 2009 (UTC)"

And then I forgot to sign GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:18, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Photos of the bombing?
When I was a child, my late mother told me stories of how she survived a bombing of Bremen and other places that I no longer recall (all of this was 40 years ago). I have recently inherited her photo collection, and amongst those photos are her standing among bombed out ruins, which I suspect are of Bremen. I can scan these photos and post them. Maybe someone can identify where they are taken?

Is this a good idea? 124.176.91.185 (talk) 10:30, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Only 35 fighter aircraft ?
Misleading intro. What does this mean ? Over years of war the same, static defense force ? 35 must be a snapshot, refering to a certain date. --Oerntie (talk) 10:06, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

What about August 18/19 and 30, 1944 ?
The heaviest bombings of Bremen. Forgotten to be mentioned here - ? --Oerntie (talk) 10:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

- I came to say the same thing. 75 years ago today and its all over the German press. How is this missing?I Hate Banner adds (talk) 07:45, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

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December 20, 1943
That was “VIII Bomber Command Mission 159”; it was also the first use of Chaff on an 8th AF mission. Also on that very bomb run the "Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident" took place, and there were a lot of Medals of Honour awards, eg for Staff Sergeant Forrest Lee Vosler. 2003:DC:F745:6900:19C:CBA2:C7B5:F069 (talk) 18:14, 21 December 2023 (UTC)