Talk:Bordeaux wine/Archive 1

Please do not keep spamming the wine tasting links
This information does not belong alongside a simple listing of the first growth Chateau. If these links belong anywhere, it's as footnotes to the individual Chateau pages. When you see these links to the Ottowa, St Catherines, Berlin, and other tastings, you start to wonder if the editors including them are adding them for informational value or to try trash Bordeaux wines in general. At the very least it looks like pretty slanted bias. - MikeCase00 - 2006/04/26

INAO
The statement "In 1973 the INAO was created..." is certainly not true, the INAO preceded the AOC laws of the 1930s. Alas, I am not (right now) up to the big-ish change of where the article is trying to go from there, or what else may be inaccurate. Walter Moar 04:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Important information on first growths

 * Château Lafite-Rothschild (See Ottawa Wine Tasting of 1981; Berlin Wine Tasting of 2004)
 * Château Margaux (See Ottawa Wine Tasting of 1981; Berlin Wine Tasting of 2004)
 * Château Latour (See San Diego Wine Tasting of 1975; Ottawa Wine Tasting of 1981)
 * Château Haut-Brion (See Paris Wine Tasting of 1976; Ottawa Wine Tasting of 1981; Wine Spectator Wine Tasting of 1986,: French Culinary Institute Wine Tasting of 1986; The Judgment of Paris 30th Anniversary)
 * Château Mouton-Rothschild (added in 1973) (See Paris Wine Tasting of 1976; Ottawa Wine Tasting of 1981; Wine Spectator Wine Tasting of 1986; French Culinary Institute Wine Tasting of 1986; San Diego Wine Tasting of 1975; The Judgment of Paris 30th Anniversary)

In all of the above wine competitions,(1) all tasting was done blind and (2) the results were listed in rank order from highest to lowest. There were no multiple winners except in the case of multiple categories (for example one red wine winner and one white wine winner).PhilippeLeClair 22:14, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

The "importance" of many of these tastings is questionable Mikecase00 20:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Clearly, some have an emotional or economic interest in minimising or even denying the importance of these consumer-oriented blind tasting competitions:

The Emperor Has No Clothes

The owners of 30 of the best wines in the world, in the judgment of a Champagne company president, were invited to a party in 1997. The event was organized by Jean-Claude Rouzaud to celebrate the 30th anniversary of his presidency of Champagne Louis Roederer. Half of his selections were from France. "I’m a chauvinist and a nationalist" he explained.

"Before agreeing to participate, the Bordeaux first growths set some conditions, the foremost being that no comparative tasting with their international competition would be held." They didn’t even want to be included in a group photo with their colleagues from other wine regions, although they finally reluctantly agreed. "But getting the Bordelais to have their wines served with the others', that was out of the question," said a Roederer spokesperson.

So the event took place in two separate parts: first, a dinner featuring the Bordeaux wines; then a tasting the next day with all the other wines, but no Bordeaux.

"They are cowards," said a non-Bordeaux producer. But the host said "I understand them." He explained that "They feel that when you are first growths you are untouchable." Their problem is that they actually know better.

They and the other named growth vineyards have a carefully cultivated image of  superiority. This is a marketing advantage worth an incredibly enormous sum of money every year. However, they frequently fail to perform well in blind comparisons and realize how vulnerable they are to exposure and the destruction of their vaulted and very valuable reputations.

Because of this the named growths (1) want to avoid  comparisons  and (2) try to discredit  the results of such comparisons. Who can blame them? Those results can cost them a fortune in lost revenue. But the consumer benefits immensely.

Party in Paris. Wine Spectator, 15-11-97 Vinifera 02:43, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

We can agree to disagree about the importance, or lack there of, of these tastings. The bottom line is that this information belongs here on the discussion pages, not mixed into the main articles. Especially the POV comments about the tastings significance. I realize there are several people here with a great dislike for the wines of Bordeaux, but lets try and keep our POV to ourselves and just cover the facts Mikecase00 15:04, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

This is one of the 2004 Encyclopedia topics. I split this off from the main article on Bordeaux. It should be expanded with more information about the Wine of Bordeaux, but I am not very knowledgeable about wine. NSR 4 July 2005 10:14 (UTC)
 * ok have noted this, and will work on it later. Justinc 15:02, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Added research about the decline of "The French wine industry with special reference to Bordeaux" Feel free to tidy it up! Ash AshleyHouston 23:19, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed Fat Bastard and Red Bicyclette, as they are not Bordeaux. Inclusion seems to be marketing.

A poorly written article
This is one of the worst pages I have seen on Wikipedia. Most of it is a long ramble about problems in the French wine industry, drink driving, oak chips, Piat D'or, and the French government. Please could whoever wrote this move it to a separate article. Poujeaux 13:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, no comments on this. So I have moved it to a separate article. The majority of that section was not related to Bordeaux. Poujeaux 16:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Summary - is quality notable?
There was a recent revert to the summary section removing the notice that many bordeaux wines are expensive or of high quality. While I agree my phrasing may not have been ideal, I think that the fact that these are historically regarded as 'good wine' per-se is notable, even if whether they are the best available today is obviously POV. There is a source cited for them being the most expensive at the very least. Acctually, I'd be much obliged if someone who knows a thing or two about wines (a.k.a. not me) could write a decent couple of sentences to summarize. What was there originally was too long and detailed for a summary, but the blank isn't all that great either.--Spyforthemoon 22:40, 15 November 2006 (UTC)


 * I guess it was deleted because it was POV and not backed up, but I think you're right, something like 'Bordeaux wines are generally regarded as among the best in the world' could go in there with some supporting evidence. For example I think Robert Parkers wine guide devotes far more pages to Bordeaux than any other region, but I dont have that book so dont have the facts. Poujeaux 14:44, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Splinter article up for deletion
An article that was originally made as a splinter of this one is up for deletion. Articles for deletion/Problems in the French Wine Industry. Any input of any persuasion would be appreciated. Agne 20:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

WID Splinter articles
While we are working on improving this article, don't forget about the splinter articles. AgneCheese/Wine 06:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * History of Bordeaux wine
 * Bordeaux wine regions
 * Bordeaux Wine Official Classification of 1855

Entre-Deux-Mers
Merging this article unbalances the main Bordeaux page in that there is a sudden random standalone paragraph about one (and only one) of Bordeaux's less famous sub-appellations. Other appellations, like Pomerol, Sauternes & the Medoc have their own separate pages which can be linked to from the main Bordeaux page. I'd have thought Entre-Deux-Mers should have the same thing .. plus it's really not very well written and has a typo in it, (I'll happily change these bits).--Nickhh 16:04, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
 * As the new WP:WID article, this is a *major* work in progress. It will certainly get balanced out and your contributions are most certainly welcomed :). I don't see Entre-Deux-Mers expanding beyond a stub so I would like to see merged into somewhere. Maybe Bordeaux wine regions? AgneCheese/Wine 16:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)


 * OK, I think it would fit in much better there. Anyway I've changed the wording of the paragraph but I'm not an expert in moving things I'm afraid.  Then I guess someone has to start adding all the other regions onto that page ...... --Nickhh 17:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

History
Does anyone object to the map I added? VanTucky 23:14, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

broken Margaux
I reverted the fact because although normally it would fall under the category of "interesting yet useless facts", in this case it illustrates a key point about the past and present nature of Bordeaux wine and its contemporary evolution in the marketplace. Nowhere else in the article is the fact that the region produces some of the most expensive wine on the globe so clearly shown. VanTucky 02:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

Thoughts on assessment
This one is, in my opinion, a tad more B side than not but I do have some concerns and would like to hear other editor's thoughts. Here is my thoughts on the article.
 * The lead could use some more expansion and summarizing per WP:LEAD
 * Referencing is OK, the later part of the history section could use some sourcing as well as the grape variety section.
 * My biggest concern is comprehensiveness. This article covers alot more than other other start class articles but there could be more expansion on the "commercial aspect" section with regards to estate bottling vs negociants, etc. A larger concern is the absence of a viticulture & winemaking section, as well as comments on how bottles & bottle sizes are unique in Bordeaux versus the sizes used in Champagne/Burgundy. AgneCheese/Wine 22:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Attribution note
Some of the content in the Plan Bordeaux section is from the merged redirect Plan Bordeaux. AgneCheese/Wine 16:58, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Some of the content in the Syndicat des Vins de Bordeaux et Bordeaux Superieur is from the merged article Syndicat des Vins de Bordeaux et Bordeaux Superieur. AgneCheese/Wine 22:41, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

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