Talk:Boris Skossyreff

Other opinions about the article
It is probably pointless to reason with a Wik sockpuppet, since your standard operating procedure is to create an army of sockpuppets and editwar until the cows come home, but you simply reverted everything I added, and that's not a basis for discussion. Among other things, the spelling of his name in Cyrillic is easily verifiable, in fact the number of Google hits about him with the Cyrillic spelling is about an order of magnitude greater than the Google hits in Latin spellings. The fact that there are mythical legends about him in Russian is also easily verifiable and noteworthy in itself.

Both the "mythical" version and the non-mythical versions mention that he died in a prison camp in France during World War II, so this is worth mentioning, perhaps with a caveat.

Regarding rg.ru, that's Rossiiskaya Gazeta newspaper, like any other newspaper it publishes not only daily news, but also picks up opinion articles or essays from different sources by many different authors and journalists. You could find such "contradictions" in any newspaper, including the New York Times.

By the way, what is your preoccupation with Andorra anyway? -- Curps 12:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

To what is the above a reply to?

This last sentence was mine - if 'someone' can date it (and the question still stands). Jackiespeel (talk) 21:49, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

An earlier appearance?
The Times on 18 January 1919 p 5 has an article about a Boris Skossyreff, in the UK in court on a charge of fraudulently passing cheques. Jackiespeel 17:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

It appears that it is the same person - and that Boris Skossyreff is a pseudonym - or, from other context possibly that he on occasion used other names. Jackiespeel (talk) 18:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The Russian legends
Can someone provide a summary of what they are? Jackiespeel 17:01, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Improving the article
Just to list the points:

The various articles in the several languages have different information - acquired from a variety of sources, and this needs to be translated and copied and pasted.

There is some information on various websites (eg the one I added) and newspapers which could be used.

Jackiespeel 23:27, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

There seems to be no indication of why Boris attempted to become king of Andorra - nor why there was a previous attempt at the monarchy by someone else. Jackiespeel (talk) 22:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

The Times 1919 articles are listed on the Wikinfo page - and "persons unstated" paid the debts. There is also some information on the relevant page of the "Your Archives" wiki at The National Archives. Jackiespeel (talk) 18:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have seen a photograph of Boris' grave. Further information provided to me: will provide details when permission given. Jackiespeel (talk) 16:55, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Adventurer?
On what grounds is he termed an "adventurer"? Charlatan perhaps?157.190.228.14 (talk) 18:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Definitions (2) and (3) of adventurer. Jackiespeel (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I feel Charlatan would be a better term for the gentleman. Recursivepaiste (talk) 23:03, 12 December 2016 (UTC)
 * The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Jackiespeel (talk) 10:27, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Expanding required
This is information is not sufficient enough, It should be more, try to expand article according to Wikipedia policies with proper citations, if you allow my self I would be happy to help you and I can certainly help you in expanding it.-- Faizan Munawar Varyachat contributions 15:05, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

My article
From The History Files was previously on Wikinfo - and it is easier to add the link than copying the references over. Jackiespeel (talk) 08:45, 30 May 2013 (UTC)

The link is. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:31, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Most recent sources
A certain Alexander Kaffka wrote in 2008 an article about his research on this person, which clears a lot: https://issuu.com/alexanderkaffka/docs/english_el_rei_rus_dandorra_kaffka_. He did visit the Dutch Nationaal Archief indeed, as its Magazine published about it in the 2010/3-issue. 83.85.143.141 (talk) 22:21, 14 October 2016 (UTC)

Birth dates
Various of the different language Wikipedia articles have 12 January as his birth date; while the French has 12 May and the Polish and Russian give 12 June. Can consistency be applied (and possibly multiple translations between the various pages). Jackiespeel (talk) 17:27, 17 October 2016 (UTC)

External links modified
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The information is extended here. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:13, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

Ethnic origins
As far as I understand the equivalent other language Wikipedia articles BS was of the petty/lower ranks Lithuanian nobility - and none states that he was Jewish: slightly more proof is required than the one source given.

Would be a suitable inclusion here? Jackiespeel (talk) 23:06, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Occupation
His occupations include 'Official Monarch, King' - one term suffices, and he only #claimed# to be king. And would 'old age' be a sufficient cause of death? Jackiespeel (talk) 17:23, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

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Additional reference
Is this appropriate. (I do not speak Spanish.) Jackiespeel (talk) 10:39, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

The latest revision
This removes some factual information - eg the 1919 London activity (based on articles I found in The Times). An amalgamation of existing and new material would be more appropriate. Jackiespeel (talk) 15:14, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

Rewrite
The article needs a significant rewrite - among many other points The Times and The Daily Herald are UK newspapers, the Juan Carlos and Bishop of Urgal sentence is more relevant to the main Andorra article, and the references to the 1919 articles in The Times should be restored: there may also be material in the other-language WP articles. Jackiespeel (talk) 10:43, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

Hi Jackiespeel - I've just done a significant re-write encompassing various information, freely available images and ensuring the entire piece is completely cited. I've made sure to include links to the 1919 articles in The Times. Feel free to have a look. Thanks - SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 10:34, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Was Boris elected/not conversation
Hi Mewulwe. I was hoping to point out some citations that show "Boris" as being instituted by 23:1. The first is from Petit Futé, a major french travel guide company. The Second is by a historical book on European small states published by Hippocrene Books. The Honorary consul of Andorra to Russia, Pere Joan Tomas Sogero, wrote that "By using his great persuasive talent, Boris gained support from one of the powerful members of the General Council, Pier Torres Riba. Pier Torres Riba, in his turn, persuaded the rest of the Council members to elect B. Skosyreva for the king of Andorra, by the name Boris I." in link 3.
 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=cf2ZDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT42&lpg=PT42&dq=Boris+Skossyreff+23&source=bl&ots=V9XZ-hu1hI&sig=ACfU3U3LBFq05jvQvq5HQJdiyQswLvzehw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjJgtL62prqAhUit3EKHWVXBK44ChDoATANegQIChAB#v=onepage&q=Boris%20Skossyreff%2023&f=false
 * https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gQFzO_v_uwwC&pg=PA156&lpg=PA156&dq=Council+of+Ministers+of+Spain+Skossyreff&source=bl&ots=_Fs5K3UOwg&sig=ACfU3U3rj1beIE8SqJJYRJowNl2tG4xz-Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjuy7r20tHpAhURsXEKHW3QDZgQ6AEwCnoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=Council%20of%20Ministers%20of%20Spain%20Skossyreff&f=false
 * Page 156 'Boris then chose his biggest supporter, Syndic Pere Torres Ribas , to be prime minister . Ribas convinced all but one of his fellow General Council members to go along with the plan , which was essentially a risky declaration of independence from ... In early July , they arrested de Skossyreff and brought him to Barcelona .'


 * https://all-andorra.com/pere-joan-tomas-sogero-legends-of-the-emperors-homeland-ancient-history-modern-and-contemporary-history-of-andorra/

I'm curious to know if you have any sources that counter this suggestion. It's possible that it's an "Urban legend", but the above sources all suggest the same thing and are publisher published (I have been sure to avoid using any of the multitude of self-published books or online sites) SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 15:33, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I already cited the contemporary news reports, which are utterly incompatible with these legends. Mewulwe (talk) 18:49, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Would you mind linking them below? SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 20:46, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * I would also object to his naming as "Boris Skossyreff" Rather than Boris I of Andorra. In the media, this is how he is referred; I am aware that Andorra cannot have a King but I have a list of 13 New York Times articles from the period, all on the New York Times(machine) archive, all of which list him as 'King Boris I'... SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 20:50, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * They are in the article. The New York Times refers to him as "'King Boris'" or "'King' Boris." His real name was not known initially. No reason at all not to use it here, it's the article title and should be used in the infobox just the same. Mewulwe (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
 * Ok. I've amended the infobox to represent him as a 'Pretender'. I'll also add the sections on the vote under a new section titled 'Historical inaccuracies' emphasising that the 23:1 is folklore, yet commonly cited. SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 03:20, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Boris Skossyreff Dutch Passport.png
 * Boris Skossyreff Wearing a Monacle.png
 * Skossyreff Writing Constitution.png

Title?
The sources seem somewhat inconsistent as regards what title he actually used during his reign (or 'reign'). Some describing him as 'Prince of Andorra'; which would fit in with Andorra being a sovereign (co-)-principality, some as 'King of Andorra', and yet others describing him as a lieutenant acting in the name of the Orleanist pretender to the French throne; the Duke of Guise, and that he was awaiting the acceptance of the Duke of his offer of the Andorran throne before he acted any further.
 * Hi JWULTRABLIZZARD. The sources are a bit mixed, some noting him as "King of Andorra". Those that do this are referring to how he referred to himself (as per the New York Times, he called himself "King"), but the title "King" was also likely used as a peacock term of sorts, allowing the source's readers to understand better. I suppose many readers wouldn't understand that Prince here is the highest title in Andorra. I'd suggest checking the NYT sources linked. SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 21:04, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

So which is it? What is the most reliable source as regards this?

Also, why does the article describe him during his brief tenure as a 'pretender'? A pretender is either a deposed monarch who still claims his throne, or the heir to a deposed monarch who still claims a throne.(see James II of England, The Old Pretender, and The Young Pretender. Neither one of those two apply to Skossyrev.JWULTRABLIZZARD (talk) 21:55, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks for spotting that. I don't profess to be an expert on this topic, so please correct me if mistaken, but Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck were both "pretenders" to the throne with completely fabricated stories. The term "pretender" was also used in the NYT etc. Regardless, it'd be great to hear anything that might shed some more light here. If 'pretender' does only refer to such scenarios, I reckon a discussion should be opened, and pages such as pretender be altered. SerAntoniDeMiloni (talk) 21:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
 * The problem is that 'Pretender' is used in three distinct senses - the partly overlapping 'an alternative claimant to the throne' and 'the person who would have the throne of the state were the monarchy to be restored there' (eg Karl Habsburg) on the one side and 'people who can be described as opportunists and similar,' (How would the self-proclaimed royalty of microstates be classified, or successful alternative claimants, such as William I of England and Henry VII of England?) Jackiespeel (talk) 11:12, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion: Participate in the deletion discussion at the. —Community Tech bot (talk) 20:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Borís Skósyrev vistiendo uniforme de la Wehrmacht.jpg