Talk:Brazilians

Who to include
The picture in this article does not depict the brazilian people properly. The photograph of Marina Silva is distorted. You should take out Ronaldo and put young Zico in, in my opinion. That would make for a more balanced picture of the population. Jhdf (talk) 09:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, this comment has been here for about 2 weeks with no answer. I'll proceed to work the changes myself. Jhdf (talk) 22:27, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Just change it!!!

Yes my friend u are dead right. The picture in this article is totallly unproportional. The whites in Brazil as this own article say are 50%. If the picture has 8 brazilian personalities, 4 of them should be white, but i only see 3. 2 are not even alive = The Emperor (lol) and Carmem Miranda, and she was not even brazilian, she was born in Portugal. The blacks are only 7%, so a properly representation for them would be one Picture. The mestizo is the only race to seem to be well represented. They are 4, althoug should be 3 pictures. And the indian, indians are not even 0.3% of brazilian population, that picture should be knocked out. When you change the picture i suggest you to post 4 whites - Giselle, add Xuxa, and change the Emperor and Carmen Miranda for Reinaldo Gianechinni and Felipe Massa. Remove Daiane dos Santos, let Pele picture where it is, and change the indian for other mixed up personality, i suggest Regina Cazé. 4 whites/ 3 mestizos /1 black thats the proper proporcionally for the picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.43.25.4 (talk) 18:54, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Nice they removed the picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.78.139.107 (talk) 00:22, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Lebanon
Has a population of 9 million Brazilians? Lebanon doesn't even have 9 million Lebanese people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.29.231.81 (talk) 21:28, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

9 million brazilians in Lebannon?!!! lets be serious. the reference for this is an article on native americans!!! Maybe 9 million lebannese and their descendants in brazil, never the other way around.84.90.16.244 (talk) 12:05, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Brazil has about 9 million descendants (brazilian born with ancestry) of Lebanese and Syrian. CrimsonSabb (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Extremelly inflated number, there is only evidence of about 1m descendents of arabs in the country, total. 201.17.114.143 (talk) 19:01, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Picture
This picture seems to describe an imaginary Brazil where if you are of European descent you are either a supermodel or the emperor. Now, at least half the Brazilian population at least looks white. Don't buy into this, please. Beabados (talk) 16:17, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Carmen Miranda was also white. Dantadd (talk) 04:48, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Yeah, guess that's very different from a supermodel... even if you think so, as I said roughly 50% of Brazilians are "Brazilian White" people, who mostly look inland-european. Picture should still be changed. Don't take my word for it, I bet others will keep trying to change it until you give in. Beabados (talk) 15:56, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
 * Carmen Miranda was Portuguese and then moved to Brazil...
 * This doens't mean she born in Brazil.

Carmen Miranda
Why is she there? She is genetically Portuguese and never changed her nationality to Brazilian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.3.43.133 (talk) 15:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Who cares if she was "genetically Portuguese"? She was raised in Brazil, she sang Brazilian music. Opinoso (talk) 22:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
 * She BORN in Portugal, not Brazil. Brazilian people is who BORN in the nation of Brazil. And the reality cares, stop personal bias here, thanks.
 * I removed the image and deleted her name from infobox. Carmem Miranda is portuguese, not brazilian. If people born in a country and then move to other this doens't mean change the nationality. And even if she naturalized this get out of context from this article, who subject is people that comes from Brazil, in ethinic context. --Ciao 90 (talk) 18:07, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The Brasileiros.jpg image should be edited to replace the image of Mrs. Miranda with a native Brazilian. M5891 (talk) 23:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I also agree she must not be there. Even though she has lived most of her life in Brazil, she was not naturalized Brazilian, but remained as a Portuguese citizen. But, please, do not remove the entire photos. Upload another one and substitute Miranda for another person. Opinoso (talk) 00:02, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Photo removed again, because contribs for the misinformation of the article. The responsability to provide a correct photo is not mine, since this photo don't meet in source criteria then should be removed from the article. --Ciao 90 (talk) 14:01, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
 * Opinoso, until you provide a correct photo to illustrate the article your edits will be reverted. If you don't want provide another photo don't back with the wrong one with this disruptive action on article. Thanks. --Ciao 90 (talk) 11:03, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. Carmen Miranda was Brazilian the same way thousands and thousands of Portuguese people who emigrated to Brazil. Those who deny that Carmen Miranda was a Brazilian just because the "official nationality" demonstrate that they know NOTHING about her. Dantadd (talk) 02:44, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
 * What is ridiculous is assume nationality by "culture". Brazilian people is who born in Brazil. I can travel to Portugal now and become known reverencing their culture but that makes me not Portuguese and not a valid reason to include me in Portuguese people. Image removed again, per blantant WP:POV pushing (you're ruling who is or not brazilian by personal statement). --Ciao 90 (talk) 14:42, 7 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Carmen Miranda came to Brazil as a child. She had no memory of her few months of living in Portugal
 * This doesn't turns Carmen brazilian. She still born in Portugal and descent directly from Portuguese people. --Ciao 90 (talk) 09:58, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe you are also not a child, so it is ridiculous to compare an adult who moves to another country with the case of Miranda, who came to Brazil as a little baby.

Moreover, the Portuguese people, according to the national Constitution, are part of an exclusive case of "almost-Brazilian" nationality. Miranda did not naturalized herself as a Brazilian because she did not need to do so, since Portuguese people always had an status of "almost-Brazilian" when they settled Brazil. But, if she had naturalized herself, would she be "more or less Brazilian"? Just because of a piace of paper?

The matter is if a Portuguese or another person, who came to Brazil as a child and was raised here, is a "Brazilian" or is not.

Ciao 90 said: "Brazilians are only people born in Brazil", there's another case: A person born in Brazil, but who moved to another country as a child and was raised there and never came back to Brazil and does not even speak Portuguese. If I post the picture of this person in this article and claim he/she as "Brazilian" is it correct? Does nationality really say what a person is?

In the article Italians, there are pictures of people who also were not Italian citizens: Leonardo da Vinci, Michelangelo, etc. These people are known as Italians everywhere, but they were not Italian citizens. It is because Italy, as an united nation, only appeared in 1871. People who were born in nowadays Italy before 1871, were not Italian citizens, but Venetians, Sicilians or Lombards.

However, the pictures of Michelangelo and Da Vinci are there in the article Italians.

How do you explain that?

So, to be "Brazilian" is not only to hold a Brazilian citizenship or to be born here. Carmen Miranda was "more Brazilian" than a person born here, but raised in another country. Opinoso (talk) 20:35, 8 November 2008 (UTC)


 * You need to understand what is a de facto a brazilian (born and registered in Brazilian territory) and what supposely based on emotional and social concerns who is Brazilian. Wikipedia work in factual accuracy and here we're working on ethnic context.


 * Also, the Carmen Miranda article refers her as Portuguese. Push her as brazilian here contradicts Wikipedia itself. And just curious: Carmem do not born and died in Brazil, either her father or mother aren't brazilians, so your suposely valid argument is just untenable. --Ciao 90 (talk) 20:28, 11 November 2008 (UTC)


 * (...) Leonardo and Michelangelo (...) How do you explain that?
 * Leonardo born in province of Florence and Michelangelo in Tuscany, Italia just don't even existed on that time, but the territory and provinces formed Italy. When Carmen Miranda born,  Brazil was a consolided nation for centuries and is just plain ridiculous compare the former italian territories with two nations splited by an atlantic ocean. So your argument fail (again). --Ciao 90 (talk) 09:55, 12 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Carmen Miranda claimed herself as a "Brazilian" in many interviews. Her articles does not say she was Portuguese. It says she was "Portuguese born", and raised in Brazil. The fact she was born in Portugal is just a minor information in her biography.

Moreover, you claimed Michelangelo and da Vinci were "Italians" because they were born in a region that, in many centuries, would become "Italy". Using your arguement, the Amerindians of Brazil are also "Portuguese", because they were born in a territory that would become part of the Portuguese Empire.

Are you also claiming the Amerindians of Brazil and the black Africans born in the territory that, in the future, became part of Portugal, as "Portuguese"?

Because if da Vinci and Michelangelo were Italians just because they were born in a place that, in 4 centuries, would become Italy, the Amerindian of Brazil and the blacks of Angola or Mozambique also would become Portuguese, as their countries became part of Portugal.

You are the first person on Earth who claim they are. You argument is failed, not mine.

You must learn some History and learn that the place of birth of a person does not say what he/she is. Many examples exist: the Volga Germans, who settled in Russia but keep being "Germans" after many centuries settling there. The Jewish diaspora is another example. WHat really matters to these people is their cultural beckground. Volga Germans in Russia and Jews in Europe never saw themselves as part of the local population, even though they were born there.

Miranda was not Portuguese, as you claim. She was Portuguese born. That's all. She had a Brazilian accent, became succesfull singing Brazilian music, she was raised in Rio. Opinoso (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Carmen Miranda's text:

Nasci em Portugal, mas me criei no Brasil e, portanto, considero-me brasileira. O local do nascimento não importa, nem sequer o sangue. O que importa é o que os americanos chamam de "environment", a influência do país e dos costumes em que vivemos, se bem que sempre existe um grau de gratidão e fidelidade aos pais que nos geraram. Da minha parte, sou mais carioca, mais sambista de favela, mais carnavalesca do que cantora de fados. O sangue tem uma certa importância, mas só no temperamento, não na maneira de sentir as coisas.

Translation: "I was born in Portugal, by raised in Brazil, then I consider myself as a Brazilian. The place of birth does not matter, not even the blood. What matters is what the Americans call "environment", the influence of the country and traditions that we live, although there is always a degree of gratitude and loyalty to our parents. For me, I'm more Carioca, more favela Samba singer, more a carnival member than Fado singer. The blood has some importance, but only in the temperament, not in the way of feeling things".

I think this text of Carmen Miranda shows how she felt about herself. So, Ciao 90, if Carmen Miranda said herself that she was Brazilian and the Portuguese blood meant nothing to her, that's the point. It's not you who are able to claim what she was. Only Miranda could do that. And she did: she reported to be Brazilian.

All your arguments are failed now. Opinoso (talk) 21:59, 13 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Romário also says he was the best soccer player after Pelé but this doesn't turn him the best player after Pelé. A opinion even from the author is not sufficient to endorse a fact about him/her. It's better create a section "The nationality of Carmen Miranda" in Carmen Miranda article complaining about her opinion, but this just don't fit on this article because is about Brazilian people in general, that born in Brazil.
 * By the way a new photo was uploaded and illustrates now the pt:Brasileiros and Brazilian people articles.
 * Thank you and have a nice day. --Ciao 90 (talk) 11:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
 * So you complicate things a lot. Clarice Lispector considered herself Brazilian and Northeastern, so must we say she's in fact Ukrainian because she lived 2 or 3 months in Ukraine before her parents immigrated to Brazil, even if her culture, language and national feeling were entirely Brazilian? I'm quite sure this isn't how most people feel about when they are asked about their "nationality": they think about where they got raised and acquired their native culture, not about where they were born "literally", a moment of which people can't even remember. Your argument has a serious problem: countries which received millions of immigrants, like Brazil, Argentina, Australia and especially the USA, would be in a difficult situation when one would count their population (especially between 1880-1940).
 * Millions of people came as children to those countries and there they acquired their nationality and culture; but even so must we simply not count those millions of citizens because they were born, but not raised, in another country? Btw, the wikipedia article says Carmen Miranda was Portuguese Brazilian, just like estimated 200,000 people, for example, in the most Brazilian Rio de Janeiro, most of them considering themselves defintiely Brazilians, but Brazilians with direct ancestry in Portugal (and dozens of thousands of other Brazilians could say the same, because Portugal ALWAYS sent a huge ammount of people to Brazil, at least as long as 1960). Brazil was a country of immigrants, just like the USA, so we can't forget those people by not considering them "properly Brazilians" and not "appropriate" for this article, because people like Carmen Miranda represented a very common "sort" of Brazilian in the Brazil of the 1880's to 1930's. Besides, you know, a Brazilian person is someone who was born in Brazil or got naturalized - and Portuguese people have a "special" status, they can even enjoy most of a Brazilian citizen's rights even if they are NOT naturalized Brazilians.189.13.67.62 (talk) 06:47, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

Bot report : Found duplicate references !
In the last revision I edited, I found duplicate named references, i.e. references sharing the same name, but not having the same content. Please check them, as I am not able to fix them automatically :) DumZiBoT (talk) 01:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "PNAD 2005" :

Resource?
There's an IP claiming as it follows: " A notable exeption to this system is the fact that any brown (pardo) person is considered white if they have any european blood in them no matter how small, these "brown-white" mixed people make up approximately 78% of Brazils "White" population".

There are no sources about it, because nobody never did a resource to know that 78% of white Brazilians are actually a "pardo" with with "any European blood". If the IP has sources about it, bring them. If he does not, please, stop including this insane information in the article. Opinoso (talk) 13:33, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Racial democracy
No, Darcy Ribeiro is not a follower of Gilberto Freyre, and he does criticise "racial democracy".

However, his words, taken out of context, can be used to perpetuate the "racial democracy" myth.

That's the reason Ribeiro's (or anyone else's) criticism of the concept of "racial democracy" isn't included in this article. To protect the myth that Brazil is a country without racism, that the Paulista elite (the bandeirantes) are in fact caboclos, etc. The reality of racial discrimination in Brazil is by this mean negated...User:Ninguém (talk) 20:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

And racism doesn't make part of "Brazilian identity"?

You are misusing quotes, cherrypicking those that back your personal theory that racism does not exist in Brazil. 189.27.12.82 (talk) 17:04, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Mulatto or black or pardo?
Somebody posted a picture of a woman claiming she was "Pardo" (brown). There's no source to claim what "race" the woman was. Unless there are sources to claim the woman was reported as "Pardo", she'll represent a Black Brazilian woman (which is what she looked to be) or the picture will be removed. Opinoso (talk) 22:10, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * The other user posted as a source a book which is not avaible online, which seems not to be correct when there's a conflict of content going on. Moreover, the term "Pardo" was used in the 19th century more to describe a free slave than a person of mixed-race heritage. Moreover, in Brazil people self-report their race and nobody is able to say what race another person is, without using a source reporting what race the person reported to be. And race in Brazil is more based on skin color, and a Mulato person can be described as Black, Mulato itself or even White, and it depends of his/her skin color. I already asked a third opinion about an user describing another person's race without source. Opinoso (talk) 23:05, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
 * The Brazilian "IBGE" does no longer accept people to declare their ethnic background by themselves anymore because of the great number of "colours" reported. And for obvious reasons, we cannot expect that a woman that lived in the 19th Century would report herself as "mulatto" or "black" similar as it was done by IBGE in the 20th Century. Moreover, there is no obligation at all to every book to be on-line. And in monarchical Brazil the Brazilian pardos were White/Black and White/Indians and not "free slaves". You cannot start an edit war because of your personal beliefes and more: WITHOUT SOURCES. Prove that in Brazil during the Empire pardos were free-slaves. Prove. - --Lecen (talk) 23:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes, IBGE does. It gives people some options and people chose them. If the Black woman in the picture reported to be White, she would be counted as White. You should also prove that the source you gave reported that woman to be "Pardo". Opinoso (talk) 14:16, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Jus sanguinis
The article states,


 * Anyone born abroad to a Brazilian parent (jus sanguinis), with registration of birth in a Brazilian Embassy or Consulate.

But this is not jus sanguinis. Jus sanguinis is the recognition by a State of actual or potential citizenship to descendants of its nationals abroad, and the denial of such citizenhip to descendants of foreign people, who would need to undergo a nationalisation process to aquire citizenship. The Brazilian State requires a stated intention of keeping Brazilian nationality (the registration in Embassy or Consulate) and does not extend its nationality towards those who are simply descendants of Brazilians. Conversely, it grants Brazilian citizenship to all who are born in Brazilian territory (except those whose parents are at the service of their respective States).

Brazil is a jus soli nation, in the French tradition. Ninguém (talk) 20:12, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing of "Brazilian identity"
The section "Brazilian identity" does indeed rely largely or entirely upon a single source. The intelligent introduction of appropriate citations of, and use of, additional sources would improve the article. The template immediately under the section title "Brazilian identity" is a useful reminder of this, and therefore should not be removed. -- Hoary (talk) 16:23, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

Oscar Niemeyer
Why pic of Oscar Niemeyer is not in the infobox album? It is generally regarded that he is one of the greatest Brazilians.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 09:34, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

NPOV
There is a large literature about the complex relations between ethnicity and race in Brazil this article ignores it and constructs a purely biological view of race that is quite simply wrong. Specifically there is a large body of literature that shows that in Brazil biological phenotype or continental ancestry is not the main content of the racial categories, but rather socio-economic status. Untill this liyterature is included in the article a very incomplete picture of how race and ethnicity works in Brazil is being presented here.·Maunus· ƛ · 13:00, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Heres some of the literature that should definitely be included in this article, but isn't:


 * Rebecca Lynn Reichmann. Race in contemporary Brazil: from indifference to inequality. Penn State Press, 1999
 * Skidmore, T. E. & Safford, F. (1974). Black into White: Race and Nationality in Brazilian Thought. History: Reviews of New Books, 3(2), 40-40.
 * Edward Eric TellesRace in another America: the significance of skin color in Brazil. Princeton University Press, 2004
 * Edward E. Telles and Nelson Lim. Does it Matter Who Answers the Race Question? Racial Classification and Income Inequality in Brazil. Demography Vol. 35, No. 4 (Nov., 1998), pp. 465-474
 * Anthony W. Marx. Making race and nation: a comparison of South Africa, the United States, and Brazil. Cambridge University Press, 1998
 * Peter Fry. Politics, Nationality, and the Meanings of "Race" in Brazil. Daedalus. Vol. 129, No. 2, Brazil: The Burden of the past; The Promise of the Future (Spring, 2000), pp. 83-118
 * Htun, Mala. From "Racial Democracy" to Affirmative Action: Changing State Policy on Race in Brazil. Latin American Research Review - Volume 39, Number 1, 2004, pp. 60-89
 * Robin E. Sheriff. Dreaming equality: color, race, and racism in urban Brazil. Rutgers University Press, 2001
 * Livio Sansone. Blackness without ethnicity: constructing race in Brazil. Palgrave Macmillan, 2003
 * Winant, Howard. Rethinking Race in Brazil. Journal of Latin American Studies (1992), 24: 173-192 Cambridge University Press ·Maunus· ƛ · 18:30, 1 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The article could also incorporate material from the much better article on Race in Brazil.·Maunus· ƛ · 18:35, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

RM

 * The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: page moved.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 02:16, 23 July 2014 (UTC)

Brazilian people → Brazilians - As per WP:CONSISTENCY and WP:PLURAL. See Canadians, Swedes, Finns, Egyptians, Koreans, Americans, Africans, Asians, Australians, etc... Red Slash 06:33, 15 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Support per nom and it's more concise. —  AjaxSmack   02:07, 16 July 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Religion
Why it says in the "Religions" right panel section "Roman Catholicism" ? Brazil is a secular country with no oficial religion. "Roman Catholicism" may be the major religion, but there is a lot of religions in the country, so why just one in this section? This is untruth.

Better to write "There is no oficial religion, but Roman Catholicism predominates" or cite/name the major types (using IBGE data as source). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.58.17.238 (talk) 03:29, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal for the deletion of all the galleries of personalities from the articles about ethnic groups
Seemingly there is a significant number of commentators which support the general removal of infobox collages. I think there is a great opportunity to get a general agreement on this matter. It is clear that it has to be a broad consensus, which must involve as many editors as possible, otherwise there is a big risk for this decision to be challenged in the near future. I opened a Request for comment process, hoping that more people will adhere to this proposal. Please comment here. Hahun (talk) 07:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment
Substituted at 10:13, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Diaspora figures
Somebody has been including unsourced figures for the diasporas in Brazil. I have removed them all. Xuxo (talk) 19:17, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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External links modified (January 2018)
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 * Added tag to http://www.ilas.columbia.edu/event/brazil-brown-bag-seminar-series/
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20070905090434/http://lusotopia.no.sapo.pt/indexBREmigrantes.html to http://lusotopia.no.sapo.pt/indexBREmigrantes.html

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Original research
This article had a lot of original research, with information without sources. Moreover, many "information" had sources, but when you open them and read them, the "information" were not in the given source. I removed them. Xuxo (talk) 18:41, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Composition II
— Assignment last updated by Saler2727 (talk) 14:36, 27 April 2023 (UTC)