Talk:Bread/Archive 1

etymology run-on
can someone break that up because its one giant sentence and i can't even understand what its trying to say because it has multiple points that are all connected like what is it trying to say about bits of bread and the latin crustum? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.181.75.73 (talk) 04:11, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

awesome
Bread is awesome!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.125.77.112 (talk) 00:58, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm eating some right now!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.69.3.54 (talk) 15:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried toasting it?--Wikierpedia (talk) 23:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Comment 1
I deleted the Cheese and Broccolli and French bread recipes as they added nothing to this entry. The French bread recipe was useless as it clearly stated at the end that it wasn't a French bread recipe. As for the cheese and brocolli one there are thousands of recipes for different kinds of bread and they can't all be listed here. Charlie

Why has my whole paragraph about bread in Germany been deleted? Germany is world champion in bread consumption. Is that not worth to be mentioned here? It was my first contribution to wikipedia - what a disappointment that someone deletes it completely without a comment.

I did not delete your paragraph about bread in germany but i would suggest that you make it its own entry with a link to it on the bread page. the information is overly specific given the general nature of the remainder of the article. I.E. there are no Bread in France or Bread in China sections. also the first sentence "Germans are crazy about bread" is a little informal for an encyclopedic article. mhbourne 00:31 PDT, 20 Sept 2005

The French are crazy (strictly, deviens fou) about bread too! Wikipedia is tough on authors - hang in there and keep contributing. Just keep things factual. JohnSankey 19:33, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

I took out the "no yeast" comment from the sourdough link. Although strictly gramatically correct as it was written, it's misleading - sourdough does contain yeasts, natural ones that are all around us even in flour. A person who is sensitive to yeasts may still have problems with sourdough breads. JohnSankey 13:56, 27 September 2005 (UTC)


 * Should a recepe be included in the definition of bread? Probably not.
 * This definition leaves some huge holes. How do you fit cornbread, and unleavened breads like pita, matza, etc. Are all speciality breads like rye, made using wheat flour? Not sure how to change this or I would try myself.  --rmhermen - 15:43, 25 Feb 2002


 * Looks like somebody has addressed these points now. -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Bread Recipes

 * "28 pounds of flour!" -- MichaelTinkler - 11:34, 27 Mar 2002


 * Obviously meant for industrial-sized households? :) I know very little about the fine art of bread-making, and defer further changes to those who do. -- -- April


 * "Give us this day our daily bread ..." Must be one of those Cheaper by the Dozen families! -- User:Ed Poor - 13:58, 27 Mar 2002


 * Guess that reference has gone now (been fixed), but the section taken from the Household Cyclopedia of 1881, is still noticably old in its writing style, and in the units of measurement used ('quarts of water' etc). I say we delete it, and go with the section below. We need to do something like this, since we currently have two sections titled 'Recipes' -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * The recipe should be moved to Wikipedia Cookbook. -- olivier 09:58 Oct 29, 2002 (UTC)
 * There's quite a few variations on the bread recipe now at http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Cookbook:Bread_Recipes The question is... which recipe should remain on this page? I think that the article should include one recipe for basic bread dough. -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I'll tell you what, though, the one in the entry as it stands is not very likely to produce anything worth eating, as it recommends adding the yeast to boiling water. Which will of course kill it instantly. -- dzd, 23 May 2005

Best thing since sliced bread

 * Is there really anything that great about "sliced bread", and what's the point of the end pieces? Do they serve any real benefit, in terms of the form of the others? --  199.8.171.180  -   22:20, 12 Oct 2004


 * Hmmmm. An interesting question, and one which science surely has no answer to :-) -- Nojer2 19:35, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)


 * I actually find that the bread dries out more quickly without the end pieces. 22-May-2005


 * I agree it helps to keep the rest of the loaf fresh. But also it gives you something to eat if you run out of bread before buying more. --JimmyTheWig 4 July 2005 10:43 (UTC)


 * I believe that the ball point pen is the best thing since sliced bread. --JimmyTheWig 4 July 2005 10:43 (UTC)

what does that have to do with bread? The ends of the loaf are the best part. We fight over them at home
 * I gave my dog the end piece of the loaf of bread. He thought it was delicious!!  9 august 2005


 * The ends of a fresh loaf, with a real crust are good. The ends of most mass-produced breads aren't so good. They do keep the rest of the bread from drying out, and they do let you have one more sandwich if you forget to go to the store.--RLent 21:08, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Old view of cereals
I've deleted this text : The development of leavened bread is commonly believed to have occurred in Egypt, due to its favorable wheat growing conditions, and required the development of wheat varieties with two properties not available in earlier varieties. The first development occurred by the beginning of Dynastic Egypt and consisted of a grain that could be satisfactorily threshed without being first toasted. Discovery of a wheat variety containing sufficient gluten-forming protein was the second development required for raised bread. Initial development of leavened bread is believed to have occurred during the 17th century BC, but the wheat capable of producing it appears to have been rare for a very long time after it was initially developed. This scarcity is suggested by the fact that such grain did not become common in Ancient Greece until the 4th Century BC despite regular trade having occurred between Egypt and Greece for the previous 300 years. as it represents a very garbled understanding of the history of bread & wheat. The fact is that emmer wheat, cultivated since the Neolithic, makes excellent risen bread, which was widely consumed in Ancient Egypt. It is true that spelt wheat and bread wheat (neither grown in ancient Egypt) make (arguably) even better risen bread, but we have a very incomplete understanding of which wheat species was preferred where, and for exactly what culinary use. Mark Nesbitt 12:56, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * I have restore the section in question. The text you removed contains inline citations (inotes) to the references that were used to generate the text, so the removed text is clearly not original research or unverifiable.  The development of yeast leavening is also a major development in the way that bread was produced so eliminating this development for the history section seems somewhat excessive.  If you have access to additional sources to help fill in some more detail or see a way to copyedit the text to flow better please feel free to do so.  If you still feel the need to remove sections, there are still large tracks of text in the article that have no references and are thus eligable for deletion under the terms of WP:V. --Allen3 talk 13:41, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
 * But the text is nonsense! But I take your point - it's not enough to delete, one must replace it with something better, which I have done. Mark Nesbitt 15:54, 11 April 2006 (UTC)


 * May I have permission to cite Sylvester Graham's On Bread and Bread Making? Also to cite the value of whole grains to the human diet the medical textbooks by Dr. John Kellogg, Autointoxication and Natural Diet of Man?

Yeast
When was yeast first used? I don't mean a sourdough, I mean yeast as a seperate ingredient. We can buy jars of yeast, but that wasn't always available. I'm curious when people first started making yeast as opposed to using a sourdough.--RLent 21:10, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
 * According to, it was shortly after Pasteur "discovered" yeast in the 1860s. This is almost but not quite covered in the Yeast (baking) article. &mdash;Bunchofgrapes  (talk) 21:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Yeast EXTRACT like marmite--Wwjd333 20:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Ethnocentric
This is a very good article, but it strikes me as being somwhat ethnocentric - it gives European and North American bread much more attention than bread from other countries. There is mention of Matzos, and of unleavened bread in the history section, but it doesn't say much about bread in other countries today. There's a whole section on French, Danish & German bread, but having just eaten some Morrocan bread, I'm wondering where the section on Middle Eastern bread is. Surely someone knows a lot more about Middle Eastern bread than I do, not to mention bread in India and Africa. So please add some info about it and we can get rid of the cultural bias! :) Saluton

Asians
"Bread is a popular food in Western and most other societies except for the Asian societies that typically prefer rice". I don't think so. In both India and China, people eat rice in the South and bread in the North. It probably has more to do with the climates in which wheat and rice grow than with the inscrutable tastes of those cunning orientals. Ferdinand Pienaar 14:48, 17 June 2006 (UTC)

Indeed. In Wiki there are already articles on Mantou and Bing(Chinese flat bread), traditional staples in Northern China. In this case Northern China doesn't mean Mongolia etc, but more northeasterly locations such as Beijing. In this view bread has just as much heritage as rice does in China.

Americas
As below I mention, there is no Caribbean or Americas perspective in this article. It would be useful if someone with knowledge of thus could contribute. J.P.Lon 17:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Middle Eastern bread
Saluton, you are right, and that's why I've put the tag on the section in question. Particulary noticeable to me, bread in the Middle East gets only a historical sentence. I know a bit about the contemporary role of bread, but I'm going to wait until I've got sources. -Fsotrain09 21:02, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Image placement
The top of this article seems to be overwhelmed with right-aligned images. I propose either dispersing the images throughout the article and/or moving some to be left-aligned and/or adding an image gallery.Dav2008 15:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
 * I made a gallery. I think it looks MUCH better. --Woohookitty(meow) 06:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
 * Indeed, but maybe a single representative picture in the top right wouldn't hurt. Han-Kwang 08:31, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Copyright
I removed the french bread section as it was blatantly copied from this website: http://www.freshloaf.co.uk/French-loaf-52 I'll look through the rest of the article to check for mroe violations--Crossmr 02:23, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Stalilonis
I removed the following text from the "Types" section:
 * Another type of bread popular mainly in Plaistow, NH is stalilonis. It is a thin, wheat bread with beer being the active yeast. It was created in Worcester by Lithuanian immigrants in the late 20th century. Stalilonis is inexpensive and is traditionally consumed with bologna and cream cheese.

As much as I love Plaistow (oh yeah, I've been there), I think it's not quite a substantial enough metropolis for stalilonis being mentioned as a specific type of bread. It doesn't pass the Google test, either, although I have had it-- I mean, it does exist. If anybody wants to write one, stalilonis belongs in its own article. Iamvered 18:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Unlisted Bread Types
Does anybody know anything about Laffa/Esh Tanur bread. It is very popular in middle eastern countries, sort of a cross between pita and lavash bread and is frequently used interchangably with pita in restaurants (at least in Israel). It is pocketless, is, thinner than pita and is used as a wrap. Esh Tanur is a hebrew term literally meaning "oven fire" Valley2city 16:42, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Today, I spotted several Caribbean breads, including 'Hard Dough', but there is very little(or nothing) in the way of a Caribbean/South Americas perspective in this article, I personally would not be able to fulfil this, since I have very little knowledge of Americas cusine. J.P.Lon 17:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I wanted to find (or add) some information about scova - a delicious salty grey-brown bread from southern and eastern England - but nothing in Wikipedia and only a single incidental reference on Google. Has anyone got a decent reference? Brownturkey (talk) 14:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

GA Re-Review and In-line citations
Members of the WikiProject Good articles are in the process of doing a re-review of current Good Article listings to ensure compliance with the standards of the Good Article Criteria. (Discussion of the changes and re-review can be found here). A significant change to the GA criteria is the mandatory use of some sort of in-line citation (In accordance to WP:CITE) to be used in order for an article to pass the verification and reference criteria. Currently this article does not include in-line citations. It is recommended that the article's editors take a look at the inclusion of in-line citations as well as how the article stacks up against the rest of the Good Article criteria. GA reviewers will give you at least a week's time from the date of this notice to work on the in-line citations before doing a full re-review and deciding if the article still merits being considered a Good Article or would need to be de-listed. If you have any questions, please don't hesitate to contact us on the Good Article project talk page or you may contact me personally. On behalf of the Good Articles Project, I want to thank you for all the time and effort that you have put into working on this article and improving the overall quality of the Wikipedia project. --- The Bethling (Talk) 23:26, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't think this is a good article. Bread is obviously a messy subject because it means lots of different things to different people in different cultures. I've been meaning to put the 'Denmark and Bread' section on its own page for ages. Quite how the words 'zucchini', 'raisins', 'pumpkin' and 'bananas' made it into the first paragraph of an article about bread I don't know.--Moonlight Mile 11:13, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually I am going to go as far as to delist it as a good article.--Moonlight Mile 11:14, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Pitot
The article states that pitot is Hebrew for pita. I'm no expert, but isn't pitot the Hebrew plural of pita?

That's correct. The English and Hebrew should agree in grammatical number. Alfarero (talk) 23:17, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Honey & Dough development
Could someone write about how adding honey affects the characteristics of the resulting loaf? I'm curious as to how the enzymes and sugars affect the development of the dough. -- JHU_AndyLau 76.186.65.184 22:48, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

I have tried it before in biscuits and it makes the bread have a shiny glaze on top and it makes the bread richer and fluffier. I'll add that ASAP.UnderwaterRainbows (talk) 15:46, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Popularity of unleavened bread in hot countries
This is a question really... It seems to me that although yeast and therefore the raising of bread is widespread, the preference in hot countries appears to be for unleavened bread, whereas in Europe, and by export of the concept to North America, the preference is for leavened bread. Is this a cultural/anthropological artefact, or is it more to do with the local grains and/or cooking technology, or is it to do with heat increasing the rate at which raised bread goes stale? Bjowitt 13:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Good question. Other factors are probably more important. Wheat grows best where there are cold winters. You need wheat to produce gluten, which makes leavened bread worth making because it allows it to become light. Wild yeast performs best at about 78 F (I think that's 22 C). Remember when it's hot outside, it's hotter in the bakery. Though Egyptians did use to make a lot of yeast bread. Mold grows fast at high temperatures. You couldn't save your bread for a full week, as you might have to if you used a community oven. Finally, poverty is probably the main reason for unleavened breads. It's a lot easier to pat a tortilla or chapati out in your hands and slap it on a hot rock than it is to take all your baking to the community oven. Alfarero (talk) 23:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Fats & Shortenings
I found the section on fats to be a bit confusing. The second paragraph seems to be saying that fats make bread harder while the 3rd paragraph says they tenderize bread. I read the section a few times and thought that perhaps the key is in the first paragraph where it says that fats strengthen the protein structure (which would make it harder, right?) only up to a point (~3%), but adding more fat beyond that point weakens the protein structure (which would make it softer but also less leavened?). Anyway, I'm still not sure if that is what it is trying to say. Maybe everyone else found it clear but to me it was hard to figure out. 24.7.254.33 19:43, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Kneading vs minimal kneading
It might be good to update the bread section with this information.

Jim Lahey has popularized a method of bread making known as no-knead in his book My Bread: The Revolutionary No-Work, No-Knead Method. published in 2009. The first written citation is in the NY Times in November, 2006 in a column by Mark Bittman The Secret of Great Bread: Let Time Do the Work.

The method relies on  using a smaller amount of yeast (typically about 1/4 tsp for 400 grams of flour). employing approximately 75% of the weight of flour in liquids (300grams of water, buttermilk, milk, eggs, beer, fruit or vegetable juices, etc. and in combination to make 300 grams) to hydrate the dough  to allow the gluten to form long strands or proto-dough  utilizing a long first rise time to develop flavor first baking the bread covered in a ceramic or enameled pot at a high heat (450F) to simulate a steam and brick oven. removing the cover for the rest of the baking to develop the crust  cooling the bread completely to allow the cooking process to develop the prized balance of crackling crust and moist crumb.  The theory backed by science is that kneading is actually the "enemy" of bread, since it oxidizes it, reducing flavor. Simulating a steam injected oven is beyond the scope of most kitchens (older books relied on throwing ice cubes on the bottom of the oven, adding steaming pots of water, misting, etc. to add steam). In contrast, the Lahey method relies on baking the bread in a covered, preheated container (enameled stockpot, tagine, ceramic) for the first part of the baking to trap steam and uncovering it for the remainder of the baking tgime to develop the crust. The advantage is a bread that keeps longer, with a moist crumb, and a crust that crackles as it cools.

This method takes autolyse [wiki reference to Autolyse] to its extreme -- using practically no kneading, relying instead on folding twice after the initial rise to develop the strength of the loaf. If kneading is done at all, it is very quick, in a food processor (again to reduce oxidation). 66.28.254.175 (talk) 16:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC) Marco Andres

Junkfood?
The article on junkfood has bread listed as not having much nutrional value, does it? This article really needs a nutrition section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.110.221.182 (talk) 20:18, 23 April 2007 (UTC).


 * Seriously. Bread is called "the staff of life" for good reason (Genesis 3:19).  If you don't take all the germ and bran out of the wheat, and make it with sourdough starter, it's actually really, really good for you.  Not to mention delicious. But white bread has a higher GI value (blood sugar impact) than donuts, and the fact that it's bad for you isn't why people don't eat much of it anymore.  Alfarero (talk) 23:41, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternatives to bread
It should be noted that bread is not known in some cultures (e.g. until recently unknown in Japan), and that alternatives to bread exist. These alternatives include congee, and other food made (directly or indirectly e.g. in the form of dough) from rice or grains. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.246.128.140 (talk) 11:49, 8 May 2007 (UTC).

Dough
Reference to 'dough' as money in the UK should be made as well.
 * This also occurs in the U.S.A.. But it's slang and doesn't actually refer to bread. Perhaps in a trivia section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guavagirl (talk • contribs) 16:05, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

What is an even crumb?
Will SOMEBODY tell me what this term means? 64.123.143.145 17:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Crumb is the inside, white part of the bread. It may be irregular, with holes of different sizes (see the picture in the main article), or it may have holes that are usually small and all the same size.  An even crumb is usually found in homemade bread, made with comparatively little kneading and a drier dough, and in commercial bread that has had many unnatural things done to it to homogenize the cell structure of the loaf. Alfarero (talk) 23:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

It means that the structure of the bread is fairly uniform, with no odd spongy spots or irregular holes; that the crumb of the loaf looks homogeneous in texture, color and foam structure. Peasant and artisan breads are noted for their uneven crumbs; the loaves usually contain lots of large, irregular holes. Basically, the crumb is everything that the crust isn't in a loaf of bread. Guavagirl 05:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guavagirl (talk • contribs)

I'd like to add a link to my web site on bread
I have a site, www.barryharmon.com, that has discussions, recipes and photos of making several different breads. I'd like to add an external link to my site to the Bread topic. Can someone make this happen? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Barryharmon (talk • contribs) 16:56, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
 * I added Barry's site and another one. It's very informative and not commercial in essence. Plus, my family just loves the things I make from the recipes on that site. Great job, Barry! 89.139.206.215 (talk) 21:02, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Terminology
"Many breads are made from a straight dough, which means that all of the ingredients are combined in one step, and the dough baked after the rising time. Alternatively, doughs can be made with the starter method, when some of the flour, water, and the leavening are combined a day or so ahead of baking, and allowed to ferment overnight... 

I don't think straight dough and starter method are the proper technical terms. I believe the two methods are called the direct and the indirect method. RandomTask 13:59, 12 November 2007 (UTC)


 * The professional bakers I know and books I've read most commonly use straight dough and preferment, which is essentially a more technical name for a starter. Kafka Liz (talk) 11:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


 * Yep. We bakers say straight dough when we mean all the ingredients are thrown into the mixer.  There are a lot of other kinds of dough, like 'sponge and dough' or 'quarter-sponge', but commercially they are hardly remembered anymore.  I think the infamous Wonder Bread is still made on a sponge, though. Alfarero (talk) 23:30, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal
I'd like to propose merging Pouliche into the section on yeast leavening. The pouliche article covers much of the same information already included here. Thoughts? Kafka Liz (talk) 19:00, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
 * Since no one objects, then, I'll go ahead with the merge. Kafka Liz (talk) 12:55, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Historical dates in "Cultural and political importance" error
The assize of bread and wine (1266/67) is 50 years after the magna carta (1215), not 100 years before, as it says in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.143.125 (talk) 23:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

History of Bread
Wow. The Chorleywood Process was the latest historical development mentioned when I found this page. It was invented in the early 60's. Now as a retail in-store baker I find myself using such sophisticated bases and mixes that I am amazed anybody still makes bread with a high-speed blender. I guess the big boys still do...

I love the anecdote from Elizabeth David's "English Bread and Yeast Cookery" about a housewife who tried her hand at making her husband some rolls. "Did you make these yourself?" he asked. When she replied that she had, he exclaimed, "Then what on earth do they do to the bread in the shops?" Alfarero (talk) 23:25, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Disappointed to see the Chorleywood Process described as an advance. --catslash (talk) 00:59, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Missing words
From the (very long) "Bread in different cultures" section:


 * In Ireland it is traditionally held that the end of a loaf of bread the 'heel' of the loaf more commonly known as; is the best part of the loaf.

Commonly known as semicolon? I've never heard it called that before! Loganberry (Talk) 15:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
 * I've fixed it. —  Wen li  (reply here) 05:25, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

American "Wheat" brown bread
I added some clarification on that white bread that is colored brown. I think this is something us Americans should know about bread in the store. I think it's kind of a scam, but you can tell what it really is by looking at the ingredients. I'm not really sure where or where else this should be mentioned. I thought about putting it in the U.S. section of the article. Maybe it could also be in the article about Brown bread or the one on White bread. -SpellcheckW7 (talk) 01:51, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

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Chestnut flour
Hi there, how come there is no mention of chestnut, the "bread on tree"? See The Chestnut - Fruit of the Bread Tree. Also "chestnut: Main known constituents" and "Chestnut: uses.

For that matter, I'm surprised to not find a paragraph specifically about all the different things bread's been made with. I'm no cook, and I can cite without having to think, at least a dozen of seeds / nuts / roots / etc, with which flour has been made (other than with the clssic grains, that means).

I'd like to see some mention of chestnut flour in this article, but don't know where to put it. Anyone with idea?Basicdesign (talk) 12:15, 10 August 2008 (UTC)


 * Chestnut flour as it used in bread, and other flours made from nuts/seeds, etc. are all located in the article for Flour. Guavagirl 16:13, 23 November 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guavagirl (talk • contribs)

Is there a specific name for the white part of a slice of bread?
Thanks. Ktsquare (talk) 04:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the outside of the bread is the crust. The inside is the crumb. Beastiepaws (talk) 10:01, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Use of bread in "Christian traditional societies"
I've added an 'original research?' tag to this section since it seems rather a broad and vague claim to make about a common foodstuff without citing a source. Nick (talk) 00:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

"Types" section
In its current form, this section is woefully incomplete and lacks a main idea. The list at the beginning fails to cite a number of varieties that could be found in even the most limited supermarket, while at the same time spending five entire bullets picking apart basic wheat bread. This list should be broken into a classification tree beginning with broad categories like "wheat", "Corn", "Barley" and then becoming more well-defined from there. If need be, perhaps only the most well-known could be listed here, with an external link pointing to a more complete list on another site. As it is, it may as well not be there at all. On top of that, I don't get the point of the pictures. Four of the pictures are just generically bread (one even calls itself simply, "Four loaves"), and one is apparently a photograph of a mold experiment. The ones that actually highlight one specific kind of bread are fine, but something needs to be done about this part, too. I'm personally not very well-versed in bread, or else I might have attempted to fix this section myself. But if anyone has any ideas, I really think it could become a valuable asset to the article, rather than just the minor diversion it is now. 76.93.65.34 (talk) 07:39, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

I have a question about the heel of bread??? i believe that it is to keep the rest of the loaf moist?? my roommate always eats the heel first and it bothers me. and he is the type that until he sees written proof then it isnt real!! so does the heel of a loaf of bread keep it fresh!!! help me to show him right!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.12.74.145 (talk) 06:10, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Illustrations
I think the addition of illustrative photos would greatly improve this article. Ovens and the cooking of bread, bread flours, different types of bread, the serving and accompaniments of bread, really all the sections could use some examples. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:43, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Just bugged me
I glanced over the nutritional summary at the top of the page. A feeling of unease overcame me. Why is white bread listed as having more vitamins than whole wheat? 24.84.204.220 (talk) 04:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

It is the other way around in actuality, probably it was vandalism or you read it incorrectly.UnderwaterRainbows (talk) 15:52, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Unleavened bread
The article Unleavened bread should be made; telling that its a bread which is not leavened (no chemical preservatives used). The info about the book should be moved to Unleavened bread (book) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.81.115 (talk) 11:28, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

You're right, that would be a good idea. Unleavened breads such as crackers are a little different in composition than regular bread and have played a different role in history.UnderwaterRainbows (talk) 15:48, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Seedcakes
A article Seedcake (Bush_bread) should be made see http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Bush_bread —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.81.115 (talk) 11:33, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Updated page myself, mention seedcake in article as its like bread but not completely (made usually from other plants than grain) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.81.115 (talk) 12:09, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Main article tags
So some of the subsections have tags referring to main articles (e.g. Sourdough) and others don't (e.g. Yeast). What's the criteria for which ones do and which ones don't? Gerardw (talk) 18:12, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
 * I think Yeast is the main "missing" one-- I'll add it. Beastiepaws (talk) 21:44, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

India: Pav (Bhaji) missing
The term 'pav' does not occur here. See Pav Bhaji. Shouldn't a short reference be added? Wiki-uk (talk) 11:52, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

chorleywoods no time bread
Would it be useful to at least include a link from main bread page to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chorleywood_Bread_Process such a link could be considered from the list of bread type or maybe from the country section under England because CBP "now used to make 80% of the UK’s bread. "

Another thought would be also to include a link to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breadmaker from the bread page

I could not really see correct place to put this comment but hope it gets noticed and discussed, Thanks JohnH99 (talk) 15:36, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Philippines in South America section
Hi, I noticed that a brief paragraph on Philippines is under the South America section. That should clearly go under Asia, of course! I can't edit it myself yet, due to the article's semi-protected status. Saurion90 (talk) 23:36, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Mexico is not in South America
Mexico is listed under "South America", Mexico is in North America. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pgweeks (talk • contribs) 00:48, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Is rye bread gluten free?
I have a feeling that rye bread is free of gluten, and can therefore be consumed by sufferers of coeliac disease. If this is so, it would seem more valuable to go in the article than just saying that this form of bread is popular in Scandinavia. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 22:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)


 * No. "Rye gluten contains both gliadin and gluten casein", and "Following a gluten-free diet involves avoidance of wheat, rye and barley and derivatives of these cereals." Gzuufy (talk) 23:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

WP: Food & Drink Assessment Commentary
The article was rated C-class, for lack of sufficient in-line citations. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:05, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

That's a lot of bread! Untrue?
I removed the following line from the "Bread in Germany" section: ''82 million people consume around 1,100,000 tons of bread, 5,024,000,000 rolls and 454,000,000 pretzels per year. This is a world record.'' These numbers seem a little large to me, and they are definitely unreferenced. Can somebody provide a source for or against it? – ClockworkSoul 07:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)


 * According to the ministry's statistic, germans consume on the order of 150g "bread" a day. Following a few links to the actual study where the figure comes from, I find that their definition of bread also includes bread rolls, pretzels and a few more items that basically are bread though of a different size and shape. Pastry does not qualify, nor does stuff with built-in seasoning other than seeds and plain salt (sorry, lacking the words). Anyway, 150g/day multiplied by 82 million people on 365 days, that's well over 4 million metric tons per year. Assuming 50g per roll and 90g per pretzel, the above figures add up to less than 2 million tons. It seems as if the germans eat twice as much... either that, or I goofed in my calculations. --83.171.183.254 (talk) 21:10, 9 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Uuum, since when do bread rolls and pretzels not qualify an “bread”? The shape is irrelevant. Also, most breads are seasoned in some kind. Like with different cereals (extremely common), poppy/sesame topping, onions or walnuts inside. That’s just normal bread.
 * Also, we normally eat small pastries as a dessert after eating bread roll “sandwiches” for breakfast, so it’s part of our daily bread. Especially on Sundays.
 * I’m sorry if you only consider disgusting white pure-starch sponges “bread”, but I think we’re more competent in defining what is bread and what not. — 94.221.17.162 (talk) 23:50, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Switzerland
Why Isn't there a article on Switzerland. I went there for holiday and there was more types of bread than you can imagine. Switzerland claims it has more varieties of bread than any other country - between 200 and 300 kinds. It has also been proven that bread making in Switzerland started around 5000-6000 years ago. http://www.swissworld.org/en/switzerland/swiss_specials/swiss_bread/ 12:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

There are more than 600 kinds of bread in Germany - every little village has its own bread... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.22.197.61 (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

There must be a million types of bread in the world. Mexico alone has dozens of popular roll styles, and hundreds or even thousands of pastry varieties. Alfarero (talk) 23:44, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Germany, Switzerland, and Austria, (and to some extend the BeNeLux countries) are very similar in bread culture. So everything that’s true for one of them, ist &gt;95% true for the others too. The French, Italians and Spanish eat mostly white bread, as far as I know. (I’m from Luxemburg, and we get all the influences, as we sit right in the middle and have lots of Portugese people. I also was in every country west of Poland.) All in all, yes, I have 4+ small bakeries in walking distance, and every one of them offers dozens of breads, rolls, pastries and cakes every day from 06:00/06:30 to 17:00/18:00. For a long time, I didn’t even know there were people eating something else than bread with something on top in the morning. I still find it weird to not eat bread in the morning… That’s how deeply this is rooted in our culture. — 94.221.17.162 (talk) 00:02, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Spelt
Spelt bread is not as common in Germany as the article insinuates. Having been revived as a crop by the organic farming movement, spelt (and spelt bread) is today quite popular as a health food. However, the most common bread varieties in Germany are sourdough-fermented breads made of rye or rye and wheat. -- 188.100.26.214 (talk) 15:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)
 * Seconded. That’s exactly correct. Also, bread rolls (white, with cereals, topped with poppy/sesame/…) are very popular. Especially in the morning or on-the-go. — 94.221.17.162 (talk) 00:12, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

portuguese broa
I added (rather clumsy) a reference to portuguese broa in the beggining of the article, the name cames from ancient (v century?) germanic migrations to northern portugal so it fit's in that particular paragraph ... if someone wishes to give it a better pjrasing be my guest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sotavento (talk • contribs) 06:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I don´t think it comes from any Germanic word. In NW Spain there are two exemples of this word:Galician (language very close to Portuguese)broa, and boroña or borona in Asturian (same word but keeping the n wich is always dropped in middle position in Portuguese-Galician). It´s commonly regarded as derived from borna,bron bread in Celtic languages. This influence is much more likely in Northern Spain than a Germanic one. I would delete the Portuguese part.--Xareu bs (talk) 18:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
 * By the way, at least in Galicia/Asturias, the word is reserved for maize flour bread.--Xareu bs (talk) 18:40, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

why is there no mention of Portuguese bread in this article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.5.31 (talk) 16:27, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Formatting
The way the two pictures and nutritional tables at the top of the page are formatted looks really bad right now, but I'm not sure how to fix it. It'd be great if someone could make it so it didn't take up so much space. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:39, 3 April 2012 (UTC)
 * Nevermind. I found the problem and changed it. Tad Lincoln (talk) 05:48, 3 April 2012 (UTC)

language?
"For generations, white bread was the preferred bread of the rich while the poor ate dark bread. However, in most western societies, the connotations reversed in the late 20th century with dark (whole grain) bread becoming preferred as having superior nutritional value while white bread became associated with lower-class ignorance of nutrition.[citation needed]"

- lower-class ignorance ? hmmm..

IBurger2008 (talk) 17:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

There are a number of references to artisan bread, but no definition!124.197.15.138 (talk) 01:43, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

US vs Europe - Sweetening
The article would benefit from differentiating US and European breads (especially mass-produced) as far as sweetening agents are concerned even though they appear the same superficially. The European breads are almost exclusively free of any sweetening agents (sugar, honey, corn syrup, molasses etc) whereas US breads are almost exclusively sweetened. Typically, one slice of US bread contains 3 - 5 gram of sugars per slice. In conventional supermarkets in the US, I can smell the bread aisle when I am one or two aisles away from it. The smell is sickeningly sweet and not one variety is free of sweeteners. Even 'artisan' breads from smaller, local bakeries are more often sweetened than not.

67.237.57.213 (talk) 18:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

What a bunch of crap. Just another European snob taking a shot at the US. Al Cook USA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.32.53.80 (talk) 21:18, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Guide
Why is there a 12 step visual guide of the bread making process? I thought Wikipedia wasn't supposed to be that sort of thing? 212.250.138.33 (talk) 01:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * It's simply showing how the subject is made. It's not like there is pages and pages dedicated to it.  Rcsprinter  (post)  @ 15:29, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I suppose so, perhaps I don't understand the rules. I just always see people writing that Wiki is not a, "How to..." or a, "Guide" and step by step processes are something that should be avoided. Apologies. 212.250.138.33 (talk) 21:23, 8 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Sometimes a step-by-step description provides encyclopedic information, and other times (most of the time, I think) it provides unencyclopedic information. This one would be improved by adding written descriptions, so that users can learn what each of the specialized vocabulary terms looks like.  I'll see if I can write some of them.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:48, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

This
This sentence is awkward: "The popularity on Indian cuisine in Britain means that Indian breads such as naan are made and eaten there." I recommending replacing "on" with "of." Here is how the sentence should be: "The popularity of Indian cuisine in Britain suggests that Indian breads such as naan are made and eaten there."

I wanted to edit this line, but I could not as this article was locked. Please implement the changes that I have recommended, as I could not do it myself. Finally, I would like to ask a question. Why is this article locked in the first place? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.81.96.183 (talk) 12:20, 27 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Don't be afraid to set up your own Wikipedia account!  This article is only semi-protected, and is accessible to autoconfirmed users. Richigi (talk) 17:59, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

History
I modified the section in history which described the Chorleywood bread process as an 'advance'. If you think that mass production of bread is more important than the health and taste of bread then you would call the Chorleywood process an advance. Most people who make sourdough at home know that Chorleywood was anything but an advance (except in profits). Those who take the time to either find sourdough or bake it realize that their guts much prefer digesting sourdough over mass-produced breads with short fermentation times.

Anybody who would like to call the Chorleywood bread process an advance should really read a bit more. Starting with: http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/features/the-shocking-truth-about-bread-413156.html

Then, I would suggest a quick google of the term followed by about 1 hour of open-minded reading. Nothing about the Chorleywood process could be considered an advance unless you think profits are more important than nutrition in the bread industry. I'm also surprised that little about Ancient grains is mentioned in this article. Kamut, Spelt, Amarynth, Red Fife and several other grains are much more digestible for people who aren't Celiac's but still have major problems with modern breads ...

Not sure who keeps on kicking out my editing but I keep on looking at this page to see if they have some justification for using the word 'advance' in describing the Chorleywood bread process. I haven't found any talk about it yet ... I guess you just want things done your way? Never thought there could be a ying to your yang? seaniz (talk) 23:57, 2 December 2012 (UTC)


 * In terms of production the process was still a major advance. Please keep a neutral point of view. I have reverted your edit and instead added a sentence on criticisms of the process with a source reflecting this instead.

Why are you couching this in terms of production? We aren't writing an article about production. This is an article about bread not production. In terms of what bread does the Chorleywood process is NOT an advance but a step backwards. 'Advance' is not a neutral term. seaniz (talk) 05:10, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Whether Chorleywood is "an advance" or "a step backwards" depends on your point of view. The people who benefited from it (consumers who care more about cost than taste, manufacturers, farmers growing lower-protein wheat, people still worried about WWIII [food rationing had ended only a few years before in the UK]) surely believe that it's an advance, and I believe that's the general, mainstream take on the matter.
 * Those of us who personally prefer bread that tastes good (in which category sourdough does not, IMO, fall) are naturally going to be less excited about a process that turns lower-quality wheat into something resembling cotton wool. But that's just our point of view, not "the truth".  WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:57, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

Excellent point WhatamIdoingItalk! Still not sure why somebody thinks 'advance' needs to be used here. It may be true that the Chorleywood process was perceived as an advance at the time but i'm not sure that it is currently perceived in that way. Nevertheless, it isn't our job to go with the mainstream opinion but to attempt to be neutral. Which is why I suggest that we depict Chorleywood as a major 'change' NOT an 'advance'. seaniz (talk) 07:27, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Yes, but the history covers changes in the way bread has been produced. The Chorleywood was an advance in bread production, just like fossil fuel energy was a major advance in power production despite massive environmental damage because it made it cheaper and more efficient to produce. I just don't think that we needed to go on about the demerits, sure there might be a lot of evidence that the process reduces the nutritional benefits of bread but this should go in the "Criticism" section of the article about the process, not in a brief mention of its invention in the Bread page. I added one sentence and a source about the demerits, this should be enough. As for the taste, that is an opinion, with a source you could say a survey found that many dislike the taste of bread produced by the process, but that does not belong here. EvilKeyboardCat (talk) 08:54, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm afraid I must disagree. Calling Chorleywood an advance is an opinion and is in no way neutral. Just because mechanization is the rule and our textbooks in school always called mechanization an advance doesn't mean they were correct in saying so. The taste of the bread is not a matter of opinion. If you had tasted artisan bread and felt that same bread move harmoniously through your digestive system in comparison to Chorleywood bread you would agree that this is not subjective but universal to the human gullet. Go visit an artisan bakery where sourdough baking is practised (not the vinegar added process!). The criticism of the Chorleywood process belongs alongside the depiction of the Chorleywood process as it is yet another example of how historically people implement changes that they think will improve the world but instead they make thousands of people sick. seaniz (talk) 14:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

oven spring
Probably shouldn't be a separate section, but somebody should add it into the steam section. seaniz (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Gallery
At present we have a random collection of pictures in contravention of WP:Galleries. My preference would be to remove them as we are not an image repository. Perhaps some can be retained and used to illustrate the article, though it already seems to have plenty of images. What do others think? --John (talk) 17:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)


 * After looking over WP:GALLERIES, I agree that some images in the Gallery of the present article should be culled, and the rest of it better organized. I think the topic of the article is so broad, covering an elements of time, region, and component materials, that a gallery of images is beneficial to a reader's understanding of the scope of the topic. Boneyard90 (talk) 18:31, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

I have removed somebody else's "Making Bread In Saudi Arabia" OGG video from the gallery because it was making the Reference List not generate (don't know why). I also removed it's associated single manual reference at the bottom of the Reference section. Preroll (talk)

I notice the two galleries are of much different picture sizes, the first one is aligned left, while the second one is centered with smaller pics. Should both galleries appear roughly the same, and be aligned the same? Or is it preferable to have multiple gallery styles, two different ones for each gallery? Gzuufy (talk) 23:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

Steam
Does anybody have a a source for the information here about steam? I'm not sure about the topic at the moment as I haven't looked into it but it doesn't sound correct. The vast majority of the rise occuring in a loaf of bread happens within the first 10 to 15 minutes of the dough being placed into the oven. My first impression of this is that steam would take longer than this to be produced so the claim that steam is largely responsible for the rise is surely false. Also, I have baked Dough with a weak sourdough starter which did not rise very much despite having the same water content as another dough that had a strong sourdough culture ... The dough with the strong sourdough culture rose very well.

If I don't hear from somebody about this soon I feel compelled to change it ... Perhaps deleting the steam section altogether. Surely a few of the people editing this article on bread are bakers ....?

Oh, I see that the section should not necessarily be removed as it is here as a form of leavening ....

This portion of the article most likely needs revision however:

"The steam expands and makes the bread rise. This is the main factor in the rise of bread once it has been put in the oven. CO2 generation, on its own, is too small to account for the rise. Heat kills bacteria or yeast at an early stage, so the CO2 generation is stopped."

The steam is NOT the main factor in the rise of the bread. The bread rises *before* the dough comes upto the temperature of steam. Anybody who has actually baked a loaf of bread knows that it's the yeast (whether the wild kind or the baker's yeast) that makes the bread rise not steam. My goodness why bother putting yeast in dough at all if you can get a nice fluffy loaf just from steam?

REMOVED "Steam leavening happens regardless of the rising agents (baking soda, yeast, baking powder, sour dough, beaten egg whites, etc.). This is the main factor in the rise of bread once it has been put in the oven. CO2 generation, on its own, is too small to account for the rise. Heat kills bacteria or yeast at an early stage, so the CO2 generation is stopped."
 * The leavening agent either contains air bubbles or generates carbon dioxide.
 * The heat vaporises the water from the inner surface of the bubbles within the dough.
 * The steam expands and makes the bread rise.

If the author of the above statement ever tried to bake he/she must have encountered some problems. This is a ridiculously false statement. I'm also very surprised that some people on this page think that modifying my changes using the word 'advance' instead of 'change' but have allowed this silly in accuracy to remain.

seaniz (talk) 15:45, 3 December 2012 (UTC)


 * This should be a useful source. The exact role of steam is going to depend on the type of bread.  It should be obvious that flat bread (like a tortilla) cooks differently than a loaf.
 * I think the material you removed is actually correct. Note the important qualifier:  Steam "is the main factor in the rise of bread once it has been put in the oven ".  Yeast dies in the oven, and dead yeast doesn't make anything rise.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:39, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

WhatamIdoingItalk ....! Have you ever tried to bake a loaf of bread? Obviously not. It takes time even for a preheated oven to warm a 1 kg dough from room temperature to 140F. That time you would know is about 15 minutes!!! It is during these 15 minutes that the bread rises. The bread doesn't rise after the first 15 minutes. I never realized what a pointless exercise it would be to try to explain baking to a bunch of know-it-alls on Wikipedia. If steam did most of the rising for a loaf of bread, why do people bother with yeast? Why not just toss a wet ball of flour in the oven and watch it rise? Come on you guys! At some point you have to realize you are out of your depth and you should allow people who know what they are talking about do the writing. seaniz (talk) 02:44, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd have to agree with you on this matter, from what the source provided by WhatamIdoing says and other independent research, the bread rises from the yeast producing carbon dioxide and creating air pockets inside the bread. Change it if you wish but leave out the part about the Chorleywood process, even if every known human thinks that apples are better than orange that does not make it a universal truth that apple ARE better than oranges, merely an opinion of many. Also, please don't criticize the process in which Wikipedia article are written, this article and many other have done well so far and insulting people doesn't help anyone. While you may know a lot about bread, others have just as much right to verify and edit the article as you. See Wikipedia is not about winning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EvilKeyboardCat (talk • contribs) 09:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Seaniz, you wrote, "Why not just toss a wet ball of flour in the oven and watch it rise?" Have you ever tried to leaven bread without water? Just mix some flour and yeast, proof it, and pop it in the oven. Water is one of the key ingredients, and water evaporates at below boiling temperatures. Gzuufy (talk) 16:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

Evilcat ... I'm not trying to win, merely trying to help make this article accurate. But since people who have nothing better to do than troll around here have a lot more time on their hands than I do, this Wikipedia article will not be accurate.

Is this insulting to you? Well it should be. Anyway, I changed the steam section but somebody who can barely read and clearly has never been on the dough end of a loaf of bread changed it back. I'm not going to waste time changing it again. I'm going to bake some bread and leave Wikipedia to those who don't do anything but Wikipedia as clearly you guys know nothing about the topics you are writing. Good riddance. And yes, that's right, the next time I want to look up a subject of which I know nothing ...Wikipedia will most certainly be the last source as clearly it's being run by the ignorant.

You don't want me to criticize Wikipedia? Yeah, sure, it's doing just fine! And we can all just forget about yeast because steam is the thing that raises bread. Now go bake a loaf buddy! seaniz (talk) 15:33, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry to report I'm not as familiar with this article as some others, I personally tend to prefer shorter, more focused, or narrower-topic articles. Anyway, steam leavening is cited as one of the important factors relating to rise. There are indeed types of pastries that use steam as the primary leavening.  There are lots of cites on the matter, but here's just  one.  It may be the steam section needs slight rewriting, but I don't believe it should be deleted.  There are plenty of other third-party cites regarding the value of steam leavening. By the way, one of the five pillars of wikipedia is civility. Gzuufy (talk) 16:21, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Seaniz, that wasn't "someone" who "can barely read" and has never made bread. Kindly desist from your personal attacks if you want to edit here.  That steam is the main factor in the rise of bread once it has been put in the oven is hardly disputable.  The sourdough or yeast does its work before the bread is baked  Once the bread goes into the oven, any further expansion is causes by steam leavening.  You seem to be claiming experience with baking; doesn't your bread undergo further expansion in the oven?  Mine certainly does.


 * Also, kindly drop the hyperbole. The only person suggesting that the gold standard is whether a ball of flour and yeast only will rise is you.  The article covers several different leavening agents in, I think, adequate detail.


 * As for the Chorleywood process, no matter how much I agree with you that other kinds of bread are superior, that is still my opinion, and as such, doesn't belong in the article. If you can find some specific reliable source on the nutritional inferiority of Chorleywood loaves, then you may have cause to add the information.   Pepper Beast   (talk)  19:05, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Actually, I was the one who suggested the "thought experiment" regarding only flour and yeast, not seaniz. It didn't occur to me that it was hyperbole, rather I was attempting to explain the physical characteristics of water, humidity, and steam to seaniz.  Figoni herself says it may be a strange concept to some folks, "In fact, many baked goods rely on steam for leavening more than one might imagine." Gzuufy (talk) 20:01, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I was replying to Seaniz's comment "Why not just toss a wet ball of flour in the oven and watch it rise?" Pepper Beast   (talk)  22:15, 4 December 2012 (UTC)

I suppose that the doorknob would get offended if I told it that it wasn't very bright? But I wouldn't be making inaccuracies unless the doorknob had a light source. Civility is highly overrated especially when it interferes with accuracy! Yes, I know that exclamation points are also angry and considered a form of shouting. Sorry for hurting your ears and feelings. seaniz (talk) 16:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * If yeast were the only factor in bread rising in the oven, then only yeast breads would rise very much in the oven. On the other hand, every baker knows that popovers are bread, too, and they are yeast-free and rise far more than the typical yeast bread.  So yeast can't be the only factor that causes bread to rise in the oven, because all the non-yeast breads manage to rise, too.  Perhaps you would like to review the section "Types", and try to remember that "yeast bread" is not the only type of bread in the world?  WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:20, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Well, not exactly true. Popovers and Yorkshire puddings are batters - i.e an egg flour and milk/water mix in which the presence of egg cooked at high temperature causes what can best be described as tumescence rather than conventional raising. Suggesting that the cooking behaviour of batters helps to characterise the rising behaviour of bread is, I suspect, a little disingenuous.  Velella  Velella Talk  20:06, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Gisslen places a popover formula in his quick bread section. Gzuufy (talk) 20:40, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Even basic dictionaries like this one define popovers as a type of bread. Our opening definition is pretty much correct:  pretty much anything that contains flour and water and gets cooked is a type of bread.  Something creates the bubbles in matzo bread, and it's not yeast.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:47, 4 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Just for clarity's sake, does this mean that Pastry (Flour + water +fat) is bread ? How about Cake (flour + water + fat + raising agent + assorted flavourings) ? I suspect that it is the definition that is unhelpful here. In the UK nobody would include a Yorkshire pudding as a type of bread, so it may be one of these transatlantic issues where definitions are different across the ocean. If so, the article should reflect that.  Velella  Velella Talk  23:48, 4 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, that's how it works when you're classifying foods. Normal people, of course, wouldn't look at a pie crust and say "Oh, that's bread!"; they would apply some more usefully specific label, like "Oh, that's pastry".  But pastry and cake and crackers and such actually are breads, because bread is an enormous, varied class of cooked foods whose primary ingredient is some kind of flour.  (Think about it:  They're not fruits, vegetables, meats, etc.  What else would, say, a cracker be, if not a type of bread?)  WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:34, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I guess for the sake of the poor folk who might come here looking for some accuracy I should say a couple of things. Clearly it's a waste of my time to change this article as it seems to have become a sport to revert everything I say even if what I have said is more accurate than the original .... I think this was pepperbeast "Seaniz, that wasn't "someone" who "can barely read" and has never made bread. Kindly desist from your personal attacks if you want to edit here. That steam is the main factor in the rise of bread once it has been put in the oven is hardly disputable. The sourdough or yeast does its work before the bread is baked Once the bread goes into the oven, any further expansion is causes by steam leavening. You seem to be claiming experience with baking; doesn't your bread undergo further expansion in the oven? Mine certainly does."

Yes paperbeast, my bread does expand in the oven, but only for the first 10 to 15 minutes after the dough goes into the oven in these 10 to 15 minutes when the dough first goes into the oven the yeast becomes very active and *does not die until the dough reaches 140F*. Stick a thermometer in your dough next time you bake. Do it at the 5 and 10 minute mark. You will find that your dough is only around 95F at 5 minutes this is a very good temperature for yeast! At 10 minutes most of the yeast is dead and the bread stops rising that's a temp of 140F or above.

In any case with regard to steam I did not remove the entire section as some people claim as I'm sure that it's accurate for steam leavened bread. I did however take out the false statement that:

"* The steam expands and makes the bread rise. This is the ** main factor ** in the rise of bread once it has been put in the oven. CO2 generation, on its own, is too small to account for the rise. Heat kills bacteria or yeast at an early stage, so the CO2 generation is stopped."

It is true that lots of heat kills bacteria but it's also true that bacteria loves heat until it reaches 140F. So, no, the yeast does not die immediately upon entry to the oven. Steam has a role in the rise it is possible but since the dough stops rising after 10 to 15 minutes it cannot be steam that is mostly responsible for the rise as at those temperatures (<140F) steam is not even produced! So, if you use a bread stone you might be able to state that steam is produced immediately at the point of contact between hot stone and dough but how do you explain the rise of a dough which was placed on a cool cookie sheet and then placed into the oven. The steam would take a minimum of 5 to 10 minutes to become generated and yet the dough has already begun to rise almost immediately upon entry to the oven.

Honestly, I'm not trying to mess with this article I'm trying to improve it. I guess you guys have encountered many vandals and so a new user is always assumed to be destructive.

In the liquid section I made an edit which was *surprise* reverted.

Not a direct quote " bread is commonly 1 part liquid (water) 3 parts flour."

This section doesn't mention if it's using weight or volume ...Because the majority of successful bakers seem to use weight it should mention that the actual mixture is:

"3 parts water (liquid) and 5 parts flour by weight"

Because 1 part water and 3 parts flour makes a very stiff horribly dry bread! Try it if you don't believe me.since I already made this change and it got reverted to the incorrect numbers. I'm not interested in changing it again. Somebody with more time and more interest (with Wikipedia not bread ... Nobody has more interest in bread than I do) can hopefully change it so that some poor kid doesn't try to put together flour and water in the incorrect quantities and discover concrete instead of bread.

Finally, I don't think Chorleywood should be described as an 'advance' I'm not sure why so many of you are so strict about this ... If you think Wikipedia should be neutral, why don't you think 'major change' is more neutral than 'major advance'? In any case 'advance' indicates progress in a positive light to me ... Why are we couching 'progress' in positive instead of neutral terms. Do we even agree on what progress is? For me progress is the movement back to sourdough which is currently taking place all over the world to somebody else 'progress' is the mechanization of a means of production ... Who is correct?

That's enough from me. As I've already indicated, I'm through with changing the articles on bread as it disturbs me to watch somebody take accurate information and replace it without so much as a thought toward the changes that were made. All of my changes have been reverted despite the fact that most of these changes are verifiable. True I didn't provide sources but the points in the article that I changed are unsourced so it is up to you good folk to do a bit of research and try to improve this article instead of punching the revert button instinctively as you have been doing. seaniz (talk) 17:24, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
 * You are right about the ratio of water to flour. One to three is a not only incorrect, it makes the article contradict itself. The ratio of three to five is correct and I've got a source to confirm it as well. I have made the necessary changes to the article. EvilKeyboardCat (talk) 00:23, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * It depends on the kind of bread you're making. That's true for sandwich loaves, but a lot of crispbreads run 2:3 or stiffer (carta di musica, a steam-raised bread, runs almost 1:2) and the ciabatta I make runs almost 1:1 (a very slack dough).  WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:52, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The 1 part water 3 parts flour is probably by volume, which seaniz implied. NDL reports 1 cup of all purpose flour weighs 125 g (so for 3 cups, 3 times 125 g = 375 g), and that bread flour weighs 137 g (so for 3 cups, 3 times 137 g = 411 g), and they report a cup of water at 237 g.  Water weight divided by flour weight gives us based on flour weight, the values are: all purpose, 237 ÷ 375 = 0.632 × 100% = 63.2% ; bread flour 237 ÷ 411 ≈ 0.5766 × 100% = 57.66%.  Those two values are within the typical range of hard wheat vs soft wheat optimum water absorptions, though they are reversed.  It is important to indicate whether the ratio is by weight or by volume. laurieashton.com cite, added by evilkeyboardcat, is going by weight, even with her water, so I'll go build on evilkeyboardcat's edit. Gzuufy (talk) 06:08, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's true, but the fact remains that the proportions depend on the type of bread you're making. The liquid:flour ratios I give above are for weights.  WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I was beginning to think everybody had taken my advice and tossed one into the oven ... Oh well, at least folks are starting to find ways to make this article more accurate. Somebody should post a statement at the top of this page to indicate to newcomers that they might as well forget about making any changes as chances are very excellent that their changes will be reverted even if more correct than the original article. seaniz (talk) 02:25, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Is this comment supposed to help you win friends and influence people? WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:44, 6 December 2012 (UTC)

I see why you are involved in conflict resolution WhatamIdoingItalk. I'm not trying to win squat. I'm just hoping that this article will be a little less wrong. seaniz (talk) 14:57, 6 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm sure we can work together Seaniz, you've already helped by noticing that the ratios of water to flour were incorrect and we can fix many more things. Big articles always tend to have a lot of people watching them, so there will always be controversy in their editing but it's for the best. Editors can discuss the changes and reach a compromise. When I was learning to use Wikipedia, my edits were usually reverted because I was not good at referencing sources. EvilKeyboardCat (talk) 00:36, 8 December 2012 (UTC)

Anti-bread movements
This section omits any mention of the gluten-free movement, that is, the trendy offshoots from the original 1% or so of the population who suffer from gluten-intolerance (celiac disease) and who have sound medical reasons for avoiding gluten breads. For the most part this wider movement is without any scientific basis in its antipathy to wheat but it is becoming more mainstream all the time and would, I believe, be pertinent in an article on bread. I myself am not up to the technical issues involved to do it.Orthotox (talk) 09:44, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
 * IMO it should be mentioned (if at all and with full consideration given to WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT) in articles specific to gluten and/or wheat; this article would then link to those. Dusty |&#x1f4ac;|You can help! 21:14, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I don't think it's really an "anti-bread" movement, since many of them want gluten-free breads available. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The gluten-free movement is definitely worth covering, it's grown tremendously. I had to go gluten-free for a couple of months for medical reasons and I was very glad of this trend, it made buying food easier. Although the above comment is right, gluten-free does not necessarily mean anti-bread. Gluten is also found in breakfast cereals, oats, noodles, pasta, deserts, soups, flavourings, spices, most prepared meals and sauces, most meat products and nearly every meal in a restaurant. Bread is just the biggest source of gluten in the average diet because bread is so popular. Penguin2006 (talk) 01:51, 9 December 2012 (UTC)

Aerated bread
The section regarding aerated bread, where Co2 is forced into dough with pressure, says it is no longer used. Is that correct? I may request a citation needed, though I loathe doing that. The Chorleywood mixer has the capability to both pressurize and evacuate, regardless of the gas used to pressurize, that fact seems to be dissonant with the idea that pressurized Co2 (a gas) is no longer used for leavening. I haven't researched the gasses used in Chorleywood, but if air is used under pressure, it has Co2 in it. Thus, the statement "Aerated bread is leavened by carbon dioxide being forced into dough under pressure. The technique is no longer in common use", seems suspect. I'm also pretty sure I've seen mention of processes that use carbonated water to mix with the flour, which is water that has had Co2 "pressed" into it under pressure. The use of beer as a substitute for some or all of the water is also used, beer is carbonated. The more I think about it, the more the statement seems bogus. Gzuufy (talk) 14:15, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

I found a citation which supports the continued use of pressure aeration of dough, and thus I deleted the bogus phrase. Gzuufy (talk) 18:42, 22 March 2013 (UTC)

Rolls and baps
I wonder whether this article needs a separate section on rolls and baps and whether the content section should alert people to this section. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 10:55, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

German/Chile bread-eating record
I was born and grew up in Bosnia, and now I study in Germany. And I can tell you, Bosnians consume A LOT MORE bread per capita than Germans. However, I do not think there are any per capita consumption statistics available for Bosnia. Dzenanz (talk) 15:42, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

I am not sure Germans or Chileans can hold this record long. Every Bulgarian who visits EU discovers how little bread the west-EU people eat. The average Bg man eats about 300-400 g per day, i.e. 150-180 kg per year. The daily ration for a BG soldier is 900 g a day. BG eat mostly white bread, preferably hot, while Germans eat "pumpernickel", cold, dark bread. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.82.100.246 (talk) 03:24, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


 * I think this is a misunderstanding: In south-eastern Europe bread is mainly eaten as a side-dish to a warm meal, whereas in central Europe, warm meals are very often eaten without bread. But, in central Europa A LOT of bread is eaten as the basic part of a cold meal. Traditionally, there is only one warm meal a day (lunch) without bread, whereas breakfast and dinner consists more or less only of bread (with jam, butter etc.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nahabedere (talk • contribs) 19:34, 10 May 2009 (UTC)
 * This is the normal case for Germany too. We eat bread rolls with meat (salami, ham), cheese, jam, etc. for breakfast (07-09:00h) and in the evening (18:00h), and a normal warm meal (usually without bread) at noon (12-13:00h). Also, snacks are usually bread rolls as sandwiches. I don’t think we’re very different from Bosia. :) — 94.221.17.162 (talk) 00:08, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

http://www.handelsblatt.com/archiv/deutsche-sind-spitze-im-brotverbrauch;519549 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.19.11.39 (talk) 11:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

This document, written by an Office of the Government of Chile, asserts (in page 1) that Chilean people eat 98 kilograms of bread per capita annually and that Chile is the biggest consumer of bread after Germany, although it dos not provide any information about the consume in Germany. The document quotes another bulletin —unavailable on the Internet— prepared by the National Institute of Statistics of Chile.150.203.124.190 (talk) 07:17, 24 March 2011 (UTC)


 * according to guinnessworldrecords:
 * http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/records-11000/largest-bread-consumption-per-capita/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.200.17.169 (talk) 17:13, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Baguettes
"Many breads (such as the famous baguette) are made from a straight dough, which means that all of the ingredients are combined in one step, and the dough baked after the rising time."

I'm not sure this is correct; a baguette - the ones I know - are made with a starter called a "poolish". This starter dough in either based on bakery yeast or sourdough and is left to rise in a refrigerator for about 12 hours/overnight. This practise was introduced by Polish bakers in the 1840s and adopted in France in the 1920s for making baguettes. I have this from two (swedish) books by artisan bakers; Jan Hedh and Johan Sörberg. thats right! its a special thing about frnech bread! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.210.69.62 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 25 July 2005‎

I found this great article from the Today Show about the decline of the baguette culture in France. I think this would be a great addition to this page! This is the link to the article Today Show Bthuglas (talk) 17:47, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Asia
In 10.4 Asia, the dead link for "char siu bao" should go here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha_siu_bao. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.248.45.81 (talk) 07:03, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

The Gyeongju bread should be mentioned as a bread eaten in South Korea found in bakeries Kfj8 (talk) 18:11, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Sourdough
I copy edited this section. I removed Alton Brown's statement about local strains of lactobacilli because, generally speaking, most lactobacillus spp. are widespread, not confined to particular localities. L. sanfranciscensis, for example, is found all over the world, not just in San Francisco. I also removed the statement about the desirability of taking bits of old starter because of the unreliability of new starters. Generally speaking, a mixture of flour and water will, at the right temperature and with adequate refreshment,develop into a stable sourdough starter in a matter of days. This section needs citations, but sources should be chosen with care because there is a lot of mythology about the subject, some of it perpetrated by good bakers who do not understand the microbiology. Marshall46 (talk) 11:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm a little confused as to why Sourdough has its own leavening section describing it's preparation over other types of bread. From my understanding it is a fermentation using bacteria and yeast. Is there anything about this leavening method that is of great importance? Is it broadly used across many types of bread? If not, should this subsection be removed?Atl48 (talk) 04:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Cornell-Wikipedia Bread Article Expansion
We are Cornell students in a class called Online Communities. It is our assignment to expand on an article on Wikipedia. Kim, Bethany, and I(Andy) are fans of bread and wish to impart all the "breadly" information we are able to research. Kim, Bethany, and I have expertise in nutrition sciences, communication, and biology respectively.

We are relatively new to wikipedia. Please help guide us in the right direction while we attempt to improve the bread article. Thank you very much! Atl48 (talk) 06:19, 24 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Feedback from Prof. Leshed
 * Fantastic proposal, you have thought about many different points, and considered that you will not only need to edit content, but also find references and deal with the wiki-elements of the article and images. Few points to consider:
 * Don't shy away from discussing controversial topics, only make sure that you cover all sides of it to maintain the neutral point of view. However, gluten sensitivity has its own Wikipedia page, and it might be that the place to discuss sources for this sensitivity/intolerance is not in the bread article. This is something you can discuss on the talk page with other Wikipedians.
 * It could be that the decline of the baguette culture in France needs to be described in the article about baguette.
 * Remember to add links to other articles in Wikipedia about different kinds of breads that you are describing.
 * The course assignment template needs to appear at the top of the talk page, not at the top of the section.
 * Happy editing! LeshedInstructor (talk) 19:35, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Andy's Desired Changes

Quick breads: I want to make several organizational changes to the bread article. For starters in the Types section of the article, I do not feel as if Quick breads has any greater categorical importance compared to any of the other types of bread in the bulleted list of the section. I wish to change Quick breads to become part of the bulleted list.

See also: The see also section of the article is too congested with all the different types of bread. I feel that a link to List of breads is sufficient for this purpose even though that list page needs to be more fully expanded.

Bread properties: I wish to create a new section with the "Serving and consumption", Shelf life, Crust, and Chemical composition section/subsections combined as subsections.

Nutrition: I want to create a section (or subsection) which has a table describing the nutritional value of the staple wheat in comparison to common types of breads (white, wheat, pita, etc.). These nutritional facts will be gained from various websites such as nutritiondata and National Agricultral Library.

Also I was wondering why this article is semi-protected. Is there a way for me to request unprotection so I can edit it? I apparently haven't been autoconfirmed but that's probably because I haven't made that many edits yet. Atl48 (talk) 05:46, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Feedback from Joey
 * Great proposal! I think you have plenty of possible avenues of research with such an expansive topic. As Prof. Leshed already mentioned, certain topics may be discussed in separate articles. So be sure to add content that is both relevant to the bread article and not simply a retelling of information found elsewhere on Wikipedia. I think Andy's suggestion to improve the article's overall organization is valid. Taking a step back now to make these corrections will highlight areas in need of further editing as well. Just be sure to announce these proposed reorganizations on the talk page so that other editors aren't caught off guard by abrupt alterations. Also, if you had any questions about uploading videos or images, here is an article that may be of assistance:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Uploading_images. Feel free to contact me on my talk page if you have more questions! Joey236 (talk) 19:14, 30 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Please make sure content additions include citations to reliable sources. More information can be found at wp:cite. This rule is to make sure content added is verifiable. Citations to sources allows other editors and our readers to verify that the information is accurate added and to see where it comes from.
 * As bread is a fairly broad subject, editors should consider what content should be added here as opposed to a more specific subject such as baguette or sandwich.
 * The opening paragraphs should broadly reflect the content in the rest of the article.
 * Please let me know if I can be of any assistance in you efforts to improve the article. Candleabracadabra (talk) 22:33, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Gluten Free bread
Cornell project- Gluten free bread should be mentioned in the listing with the different types of bread. Gluten free sensitivity shouldn't be elaborated on, but there is no mention of the breads that can be made gluten-free. There is already a Gluten-free diet page so there will not be overlap. The "gluten free bread" section on the gluten free diet page can also be mentioned on the Bread page.

We would like to add Kfj8 (talk) 17:54, 1 October 2013 (UTC) Kfj8 (talk) 17:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
 * In recent years, celiac disease has been discovered which follows a gluten-free diet and also some follow the diet by choice.
 * Gluten free breads are based on the white sandwich bread, whole grain bread, brown sandwich bread, rice bread both white and brown and flaxseed bread.
 * Some of the most well known breads are sold by "Udi's"
 * (From the Gluten-free diet page)- Gluten-free bread is made with ground flours from a variety of materials such as almonds, rice (rice bread), sorghum (sorghum bread), corn (cornbread), or legumes such as beans (bean bread), but since these flours lack gluten it can be difficult for them to retain their shape as they rise and they may be less "fluffy". Additives such as xanthum gum, guar gum, hydroxypropyl methylcellulose (HPMC), corn starch, or eggs are used to compensate for the lack of gluten.

Europe
"Cornell Project-" I have just added a paragraph to the European bread section. I discussed the decline of the baguette culture in France. I used a reference from a segment on the Today Show. Bthuglas (talk) 18:38, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Crust
I added a section to the crust segment including a link to the sealed crustless sandwich article. Bthuglas (talk) 18:39, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Course assignment
Hi Cornell folks working on this article. Please remember to sign all your posts on this talk page (and other talk pages) with four tildes ~. This will allow the teaching staff evaluating your edits to the talk page to attribute the conversations happening here to you. The assignment is due on Thursday. LeshedInstructor (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * And please try not to screw anything up, or leave half-completed efforts, like students have on other articles in the past. Boneyard90 (talk) 14:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Yessir. Atl48 (talk) 06:28, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Religious Significance
Slowly expanding the Religious Significance section so it contains enough material to be its own section. I added information about the differences between the Eucharist practice of eating leavened vs. unleavened bread as a symbolic means of unions with the body of Christ. I believe it is important to recognize how bread has become significant as a symbol in the world as opposed to merely listing various types of bread as most of the cultural section seems to do. I hope that each subsection can provide a brief insight into the meaning of bread to different peoples. I am specifically going to look at more religious implications of bread. Atl48 (talk) 08:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Anti Bread Movement
I added a section about the decline in bread sales in the US in the past 5 years. Bthuglas (talk) 19:11, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Nutrition
I would like to add a section about the nutritional significance of bread. Is this too general/ would all pages that have some relevance to food include a nutritional section or is this too specific? I was planning on adding this:

Nutritionally, bread is known as an ample source for the grains category of nutrition. Serving size of bread is standard through ounces, counting one slice of bread (white processed bread) as 1 oz. Also, bread is considered a good source of carbohydrates through the whole grains, nutrients such as magnesium, iron, selenium, B vitamins, and dietary fiber. As part of the 2010 Dietary Guidelines for Americans, it is recommended to make at least half of the recommended total grain intake as whole grains and to overall increase whole grains intake. Different types of bread as 100% whole grain, refined-grain, or partly whole-grain products all exist mostly as a necessary part of the diet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kfj8 (talk • contribs) 23:05, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

History
I just added a section to the history segment. The last sentence in the history section discussed the ease that automated bread makers created for people. I added on to that with the newest bread making craze that involves no work at all. I then cited a source to back up this claim. Bthuglas (talk) 02:50, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Asia
I added a section about the Miracle Chapati because it is considered to be a Holy bread in the Muslim culture. Bthuglas (talk) 03:46, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

New external link
Initially a History of bread from Spain, but is interesting for all countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Egballes (talk • contribs) 10:52, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Enrique García Ballesteros: Foods From Spain History: Bakery & Confectionery. A Taste For Sweetness

Seriously?
"It is popular around the world and is one of the world's oldest foods."

Even if we limit this statement to human foods, its like an indication that there was not a long list of edible foods that predate cooking or the discovery of fire. Please, cite a source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:0:989:1D7:E6CC:8978:6798 (talk) 22:26, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Side note: Is Wikipedia getting dumber or is it just me? It seems like there are a lot more of these idiotic statements of fact than there were when I started reading the wiki around eight years ago. Why is this? And what can be done? Maybe some forum could exist to discuss the issue.

This LOCKED page deserves some kind of award for most gratuitous use of the word 'evolving' even by Wikipedia's very low standards...182.249.247.13 (talk) 12:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

QR code installed
Toodyaypedia article QR code in place Elrebe56 (talk) 07:49, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Shelf Life
Rye sourdough bread (potentially, others too) can keep for several weeks (if it doesn't attract mold) b/c when the crust hardens, it traps the moisture inside. From the outside, the bread appears hard as stone, but when cut, it'll still be moist inside. Hence, such bread can be stored and kept for a comparably long time and need not be eaten within only a day or two. 79.227.181.15 (talk) 12:46, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

p.s.: A good bread knife (with specially jagged edge) can cut even the hardest of bread loaves (useful when you want to store bread for longer time than usual). There are also specialized bread cutting machines, both electric and hand-operated, which have a circular blade. 79.227.181.15 (talk) 12:52, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Possible protection
This article seems to be a regular target for vandals, would it make sense to have it protected? Not sure what type would be suitable. Buechlein (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

The importance of the "Anti-bread movements section"
Sorry if I'm wrong but are the anti-bread movements important enough to be here? They seem limited to the US and even there the paranoia seems to be among the little minority, and such concerns may be non-existent in the rest of the world. Gonzales John (talk) 11:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Poor referencing
For such a basic topic the article is remarkably poorly referenced. A few sections have none and some have only one or two, with many whole paragraphs without any. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 22:02, 14 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Dodger67 added citation needed requests to the bread article for the sections Baker's yeast and Sourdough, both sections of which link to main articles which are well cited. What is Wikipedia’s policy regarding citation needed requests for article sections that are summaries of other, cited pages? If the link to the cited articles are not sufficient referencing, I would suggest copying all the main-article citations and placing at the bottom of each respective section. Gzuufy (talk) 04:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Links to other articles are not sufficient for two reasons; Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source, and there is no way to guarantee that the "source" article will always exist alongside this one and that it in turn is in fact properly referenced. The basic principle is that each article must be complete in itself. One solution is to simply copy the citations from the other articles, after verifying that they are in fact valid references. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:55, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Hemp bread in "types" section
It makes the claim that hemp breads will, due to the nutritional oil content in hemp flour, have a decent amount of essential fatty acids. While it's sourced that hemp flour is rich in said acids, which is totally believable, I thought that it was common sense to try to not cook oils such as olive oil, sesame seed oil and most particularly linseed/flaxseed oil, because exposure to heat would destroy most of the beneficial fatty acids in the process (it's also the reason why, fatty acids-wise, sushi tends to have a far richer nutrient profile than cooked fish).

As a result, I doubt the diminute amount of hemp seed oil present in hemp flour would have enough amount to provide any relevant percent of one's daily necessities of omega-3 and omega-6, even more so if it happens to be cooked. Taking two tablespoons of raw flaxseed oil everyday for o6 (watching out for bitter taste, as it gets rancid really easily and fast), and then balancing it out with the far more pleasant and less perishable [raw, of course] sesame seed oil (my favorite btw) for o3, is the kind of thing that could count as appropriate diet advice, this isn't. Srtª PiriLimPomPom (talk) 19:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Very interesting. I placed most of those citations, as the section had been deleted without prior warning. What I wrote was where the research led me. Most breads, except for the crust, do not exceed 208-210° F internally, as that is a frequent target temperature for removal from oven. This lower-than-oven temperature is because of the water that is added to the dough, which evaporates during the bake. Gzuufy (talk) 22:02, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 one external links on Bread. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/20120706233016/http://foodychile.com:80/2012/02/14/el-tamiz-bread-cheesecake-and-a-bit-of-variety/ to http://foodychile.com/2012/02/14/el-tamiz-bread-cheesecake-and-a-bit-of-variety
 * Attempted to fix sourcing for http://www.sixservings.org/2010/10/bread-makes-the-world-go-round/

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.

Cheers. —cyberbot II  Talk to my owner :Online 00:34, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Unclear writing
What does this mean: "While sourdough breads survived in some parts of Europe, throughout most of the U.S., they were replaced by baker's yeast." It sounds as if bread was replace with baker's yeast, which makes no sense. I suspect the author meant to say: While sourdough breads survived in some parts of Europe, throughout most of the U.S. bread came to be made using only yeast, eliminating the lacobacteria and the resulting sour taste.Zedshort (talk) 01:53, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Revert of Zedshort's Changes
Here's my rationale for reverting:


 * "Unique taste" isn't better than "special taste". It's also slightly confusing, as everything has a unique taste.
 * "The rapid evolution steam produced" isn't an improvement, and is just plain bad English. "The rapid expansion of steam" was accurate and fine.
 * "placed in the oven" is no better than "put in the oven".
 * Changing,"that contained in eggs" to "that which is contained in eggs" just makes the sentence wordier.
 * In "in wheat, phenolic compounds are mainly found in hulls", it's not necessary to change "hulls" to "grain hulls". The sentence is about wheat, so it's obvious what we're talking about.
 * An explanation of the exact composition of baking powder doesn't belong in this article. That's what links are for.

Also, in future, I suggest you refrain from personal attacks like "mindless". Pepper Beast   (talk)  19:07, 15 November 2015 (UTC)
 * If you don't give a rational, the reversion is mindless. Not a personal attack just a statement of the obvious. And I don't agree that the originals are better.
 * "Unique taste" isn't better than "special taste" yes it is as "special" sounds like a judgement.
 * "The rapid expansion of steam" steam, by its nature will expand hence it sounds redundant.
 * "put in the oven" sounds cornball


 * If an edit is reasonable it should be left alone. And what about all those other edits you reverted without any explanation? Don't worry I will go back to put them back in.Zedshort (talk) 00:16, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
 * And yet it is *is* rapid expansion by steam. It is *not* "evolution".  "Put in the oven" is normal English.  "Place in the oven" sounds like an effort to make it sound more sophisticated by using a longer word.    Pepper Beast    (talk)  01:13, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2016
Classification

Contrary to popular belief, bread is classified as a fruit. The organic compounds that make up bread originate from a botanically similar fruit. Botanically speaking, a fruit is a seed-bearing structure that develops from the ovary of a flowering plant, whereas vegetables are all other plant parts, such as roots, leaves and stems. It is a grain like wheat or barley, but can also be classified as fruit (each kernel is an ovary). It is a common misconception that types of breads are considered vegetables. The wheat grain is in fact a fruit, containing one seed. Biologically and nutritionally, wheat is NOT a kind of starch, but contains starch (which is a kind of carbohydrate); it actually contains more protein than carbohydrate, as well as a few vitamins and minerals, and even a tiny amount of fat.

Dtsair 12 (talk) 01:02, 29 January 2016 (UTC)


 * Please provide reliable sources to support your statement. GABHello! 01:04, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Proposed add to Bread
Please add:

"The Nazi Party Anthem, the Horst Wessel Song, promises "Der Tag für Freiheit und für Brot bricht an!" ("The day of freedom and bread dawns!") to the article Bread, Section Etymology, 2nd graf following the sentence, "In Russia in 1917, the Bolsheviks promised "peace, land, and bread."[3][4]"

The words "Horst Wessel Song" should be hyperlinked to the English language Wikipedia article of the same title, thus providing attribution.

The addition is valuable because it powerfully illlustrates the motive force of bread, as a metaphor for sustenance in human behavior and misbehhavior. Chronologically, it follows and enhances the already provided Bolshevik example.

Please add this, O' Wikipedia Powers-that-Be, if you deem it worthy, as I am unable to do so myself owing to the page protection.

aengleranderson@gmail.com Aengleranderson (talk) 14:33, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Miracle Chapati??
The sentence about 'Miracle Chapati' comes out of nowhere and is highly irrelevant. Chapati is an ancient food of India, and sudden occurance of an imaginary figure on chapati of some devout person has no place here. I suggest taking out any other edits by the person who inserted this part. Koknastha (talk) 19:19, 18 February 2016 (UTC)Koknastha

Removed a very large section about gluten
I have just removed a huge recent addition that contained a lot of POV, OR and PROMO about gluten. While a reasonable mention of gluten and the issues around it in this article is reasonable and even neccessary, the massive "essay" I took out was not an apropriate encyclopedic treatment of the topic. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:08, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Regional variations as "cultural significance"
The only systematic treatment of regional variations in bread occurs under "cultural significance," which is generally a misnomer, apart from the subsection on religious significance. I suspect most of this content should become a section on regional variations in bread (focusing on varying ingredients, processes and place in the diet). Bread in the Near East (where bread as it is known in the West, and possibly worldwide, originated) needs to be discussed. Religious and other cultural significance could either be discussed under regional variation (based on place of origin of religious traditions) or a new section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vikslen (talk • contribs) 18:48, 16 May 2016 (UTC) Vikslen (talk) 18:58, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Section "Shelf life"
This section, added 4 November 2012, seems problematic to me. Currently, it reads a bit like an advertisement, and does not match the title that well, except for the final sentence - one would expect more general information about the shelf life of bread. I would, in fact, remove the section entirely. Opinions? Muad (talk) 14:46, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

Record intake of bread per head
The section on Bread in Europe is bookended by two clearly contradictory statements about what countries consume the most bread per capita. At the opening, Germany is singled out as the world number one followed by Chile, but at the end of the same section we find:

"According to Guinness World Records, Turkey has the largest per capita consumption of bread in the world as of 2000, with 199.6 kg (440 lb) per person; Turkey is followed in bread consumption by Serbia and Montenegro with 135 kg (297 lb 9.9 oz), and Bulgaria with 133.1 kg (293 lb 6.9 oz)"

There is something fishy here. ;) 83.251.164.50 (talk) 14:10, 29 July 2016 (UTC)

Bread Trough Illustration
The photograph of an outdoor stone trough is identified as follows: A dough trough once used for leavening bread from Aberdour Castle, Fife, Scotland. My question is, on what basis is this identified as a dough trough? Seems highly unlikely to me. I am not aware of any other outdoor stone dough trough. (William Rubel (talk) 03:32, 2 September 2016 (UTC))

A dough-kneading lever
Does anyone know the English name for this? Thanks, Anna Frodesiak (talk) 23:03, 9 July 2016 (UTC) Yes. In English, this is called a "brake." (William Rubel (talk) 03:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC))

image
The lead image is poorly chosen. In English, "bread" is often distinguished from "rolls," which is what seem to be depicted here. Kdammers (talk) 03:01, 16 September 2017 (UTC)

Bread roll
A terribly Eurocentric article. I tried to add an image of a Filipino roll but I'm crap at getting sizes right. You'd think only Europeans had rolls if you read the article, and the version before me said that Germany and Austria had an unusually large number of types of rolls which sounds nonsense. Doug Weller talk 12:56, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * , what image? Ping me with the details and I'll try to do something with it. -- Begoon 15:23, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. It was actually something from Category:Ensaymada (Philippines) on Commons (I can't remember how to make the wikilink). But I am getting confused. We have List of breads, List of buns (which says "A bun is a small, sometimes sweet, bread, or bread roll", and List of bread rolls as well as Bun and Bread roll. I'm fond of Gua bao which is a steamed yeast roll/bun common in the UK now. Why are we distinguishing between buns and rolls? Bun also says "A bun is normally made from dough that has been enriched with sugar and butter and sometimes egg. Without any of these the dough remains to be 'bread dough' rather than 'bun dough' and the resultant product will be called a roll, rather than a bun." But that's clearly not true, you can buy hot dog buns or hot dogs rolls and they are the same thing, and Baozi, Gua bao, Blaa, Bánh bao etc on list of buns have no more sugar than you'd expect in a bread product. I guess this will always be a mess and not as helpful to our readers as it might be.  Doug Weller  talk 17:03, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * , in Lancashire, where I grew up, we used to call bread rolls/buns "muffins" or "barm cakes" and I don't think sugar/butter/egg content was a real factor in that terminology. I suspect you are correct about our inabilities here, given the plethora of available terms for something so ubiquitous. The offer for image help still stands, should you ever need it anywhere. -- Begoon 17:26, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks. One of the lists may have what I want. I also thought of cinnamon roll vs cinnamon bun, which are the same thing. Doug Weller  talk 17:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

First Bread
Evidence from ancient grinding rocks shows the oldest known bread was made 100,000 years ago from wild Sorghum, made into a sourdough. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.187.1.83 (talk) 16:30, 19 March 2018 (UTC) Doesn't that mean bread played a significant part even before agriculture, contrary to the first words in the talk page? 207.161.167.72 (talk) 15:15, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Betty White
Betty White is older than sliced bread and that's all I gotta say bout that. Thank you for listening to my ted talk. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.213.124.78 (talk) 20:39, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink § Bread loaf article merge?
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Food and drink § Bread loaf article merge?. &#123;{u&#124; Sdkb  }&#125;  talk 18:26, 13 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2021
Please change "yoghurt" to "yogurt" in the "Liquids" section. The article uses US spelling ("flavor" and "color" rather than "flavour" and "colour"), so the US spelling "yogurt" also should be used. 64.203.186.87 (talk) 16:12, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes check.svg Done – see Special:Diff/1026416482. DanCherek (talk) 04:34, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment
This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Crb576. Peer reviewers: Zoe.becker.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:13, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Western-Hemisphere Cultures Absent
Entire does not discuss bread in the Americas, etc. It would be a valuable addition, both to properly represent the true range of human culture; and to properly inform about the true range of bread, especially non-wheat breads made from plants found only in the Americas. 2600:8803:AE03:2C00:3453:67C3:2876:ACDE (talk) 18:04, 19 July 2022 (UTC)