Talk:Café au lait

Ratio
What's with the Preferred ratio of 2.0 US gallons per 13 ounces (10 L/kg) of Coffee and Chicory? Is this a recipe for ten people? And what does "10 liters per kilogram" mean? &mdash; Asbestos | Talk  15:55, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)
 * I'm removing the whole section, as WP:NOT a cookbook. Someone can re-create it in the WikiCookbook if it isn't already there. --Icelight 22:04, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Where it is written that brief recepies do not belong to Wikipedia? I did not find it at WP:NOT. WikiCookbook does not include drinks. --Gorn 02:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Café Au Lait and Caffèllatte is the same
The therminology of cafés and coffee bars seems to have a lot of confusion over whether to use french or italian name for the same beverage. This article argues 'café au lait' isn't made on an espresso machine, but from a drip brewer, a 'moka', or a french 'press' pot -and hot milk heated on a plate. True, this method HAS been common in both France and Italy since the late 1800's, and just as the spanish named it 'cafe con leche' (coffee with milk), the french and italians named the beverage the same in their respective languages.

However:

In Cafés in France and Caffè's(they are called so) in Italy, however, the large coffee machines were introduced simultaneously towards the end of the 19th century. When the 20th century dawned, the french and the italians improved the machines to brew coffee in the espresso way. No restaurant or public 'Café' would serve coffee brewed on anything but an espresso machine from the 1940's on.

The french therminology named their coffee café express, café noisette, cappuccino  and café au lait.

(later on, a hybrid arrived, with the name Café Crème)

The italian said caffè espresso, caffè macchiato, caffè maracchino, cappuccino and caffèllatte.

(The spanish? Café Espresso, Café Cortado and cafe con leche).

As traditions move, therminology is borrowed. Cappuccino, who originated in Austria, was so defined by the italians that the italian therm was exported. Hence, the french did not re-name it or translate it.

Café au lait was a novelty and a trendy café beverage in the countries who imported the french tradition throughout the 1980's. Still, it was espresso and steamed milk who made up the drink; -not plain coffee and heated milk. In the 1990's, however, the influence was italian via the US: -a new generation learned to say 'latte' in the american way: lay-tey, and drink it from a glass more often than a large cup. Even in Paris, the italian/US way of serving was introduced, but did not catch on in the world of pavement café's. A french garcon won't serve you a caffèllatte!

Some claim caffèllatte is served only in a tall glass, and café au lait is served in a bowl or large cup, but these two varieties are just ways of serving. A french bakery would serve café au lait in a bowl, but a french Café would serve it in a little smaller cup, (and more often than not call it a 'Café Crème'; Grand Crème où Petit Crème) just as an italian Caffè would serve the same beverage and call it a caffèllatte.

Confused?

Try ordering both café au lait and caffèllatte at french and italian café's, and see if the barista makes one drink at the espresso machine, and the other on the café's kitchen stove!

Claiming the terms are used differently in the US, is something entirely different.

Yours, John in Oslo


 * Sounds good. Do you have a source we can cite? --Eyrian 10:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)


 * I don't agree. A Cafe latte is no was the same as "cafe au lait", no matter how it's served. When served a French breakfast, au lait is warm milk and strong coffee in equal parts, poured together. It's even common to be given the milk and coffee to mix oneself. However, the main fallacy with this article is the "regular coffee" part. No true coffee connoisseur would confuse drip coffee with strong coffee, such as is made with a French press (when used correctly). I have a lot of experience with French press, and it makes coffee about as strong as espresso, but not with the same quality of flavor. I believe this part of the article should be clarified. I was horrified to order cafe au lait once and be given half drip coffee, half warm milk and I'm sure any other strong coffee devotee would feel the same. Garnet avi 15:49, 15 January 2007 (UTC) PS. Cafe latte is espresso and steamed milk, not just warmed milk and not just any strong coffee.

Thanks for comments. My point is: yes, when served a french breakfast (as in: at a french home or in a small hôtel), café au lait is warm milk and strong coffee in equal parts poured together, but also: when ordering an italian breakfast (as in, in this case, an italian home or some italian hotel), your caffèllatte will be made in the same way -unless, in both cases, you happen to be at a Café (all right, a Caffè in italian). We are discussing the useage of the terms 'café au lait' and 'caffèllatte'; -both words say the same in two related languages, and both words were in use both domestically and in public café's in France and Italy respectively looong before the large coffee machines were installed there. The french invented the espresso machines, and the italians improved them, but both countries introduced them to their public cafés/caffès simultaneuosly. The french did not change their coffee menu to italian if they purchased let us say Faema or LaMarzocco machines. When I have -through the years- searched through the french café history, looking through old menues, photographs and the like, I have never come across the italian therminology. Whether in small and old cafés up on Montmartre and the 'Cafe de la Paix' in Paris, to the traditional old places in Lyon, Marseille and the Riviera: the espresso machines were introduced early, but -the menu was in french, and 'café au lait' was made from espresso and steamed milk. In Italy, needless to say, they would never say 'café au lait' when referring to their home-made breakfast coffee, and the french, needless to say, would never use an italian word for the same beverage neither in their home nor in their cafés.

But then, as traditions travel, they change: - an american pizza is far from home, too.


 * "Café au lait" and "caffè latte" are used as contrasting terms, to indicate whether the beverage is served in the "French" or the "Italian" way – the former being in a white porcelain cup or bowl, the latter in a kitchen glass, and always served from the espresso machine.

I'm Italian and I always saw "caffè latte" served in porcelain cup and from moka machine. So the above statement is not correct. --94.166.95.120 (talk) 17:51, 4 June 2010 (UTC)

What makes the World Go Round? Coffee + Milk
What unites them all is that they are roughly equal parts coffee and milk, of some sort or other. A New Orleans resident would be offended by any drink that didn't have chicory in it (or anything but whole milk), and the same can be said for Italians, the French, etc. A better way to settle your dispute would be to make sections for each kind of drink and explain the differences. Seems like that would be the encyclopedic thing to do. Whether I make it at home with instant coffee and skim milk, or you make it with chicory and whole milk, espresso and cream, or goat's milk and Postum (OK, I made that one up), in a demitasse or Dixie cup, they are all in the same family. You can argue that one is a better cup or a worse bowl of the stuff, but they are all the same thing. We don't say that a Mercedes and Yugo's aren't both cars, just different kinds of cars. Same thing here. GumbyProf: &quot;I&#39;m about ideas, but I&#39;m not always about good ideas.&quot; 02:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


 * I agree. I'm going to add a barebones section on New Orleans style "cafe au lait," and I would love any additions to it, or regarding this article at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by FerventDove (talk • contribs) 02:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC).


 * I'm not sure the New Orleans section is accurate when it mentions the use of scalded milk. I work at Cafe Beignet and we use coffee with chicory but definitely use steamed milk, not scalded milk. Maybe it's different at Cafe du Monde but I'm not sure a generalized statement like this can be made over how one New Orleans cafe serves au lait and some citation that looks mostly like a creative writing class assignment. Joshisanonymous (talk) 16:23, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Skin Color?
Does this need a section on Cafe au Lait as a skin colour, or colour in general? --Nickpheas 23:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Top Photo Incorrect
The photo used at the top of this page is incorrect for 2 reasons: According to its filename/description, this particular photographed drink was ordered in Oslo and is not cafe au lait. It has not been proven beyond doubt that the two drink names (cafe au lait and cafe latte) are interchangeable; therefore, a picture of cafe latte should not be used here. And even if the two drinks sometimes look similar after they are prepared... we should not confuse readers by using the same exact picture as the one on the cafe latte page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fallendarling (talk • contribs) 17:09, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
 * 1) the filename states that it is "latte" not cafe au lait, so the picture is inappropriate for the cafe au lait page
 * 2) the same picture is used as the top photo on the cafe au lait wikipedia page, and this is confusing

The photo is correct as far as: We can collect sources for when and where 'café au lait' and 'caffè latte' became known terms in coffee houses at what times in history, and I can assure you that you will not find a "SCAE meeting in Trieste in 1848" or something where these two beverages were invented or defined. I would for sure agree with you and claim that 'caffè latte' is the better term to use for espresso + steamed milk in this ratio today, and that this goes wether it is served in a glass or a bowl or a cup (french porcelain or not).
 * 1) I took the photo, in Oslo, at a coffee house which has served this as 'cafè au lait' since 1994 (they have 24 stores as of 2012). In northern Europe the term 'cafè au lait' was used for espresso + milk from the 1960's on. 'Latte' came into use approx. in 1996 in Norway.

I've been serving coffee in cafés since the 1980's, and I can tell you the period when customers started asking for 'latte' was the 2nd part of the 1990's. Up until then, we prepared it the same as lattes are prepared now (although the quality was low) and served it in large cups. When the glass craze came, all cafés and coffee houses exchanged cups for kitchen glasses. As large cups and latte art became a fashion, it changed again. The older generation still asks for 'café au lait', though.

But before the 'latte' wave has erased all traces of the 'café au lait' tradition, I will still claim this is still valid in large parts of Europe, just as 'Milchkaffee' is used for 'Melange' in german language areas.

If you can find sources to claim that 'café au lait' is a beverage being served in French (or any European) café alongside a 'caffè latte' and being a totally different coffee drink, made from coffee brewed on a french press and scalded milk or something, then I'll be surprised.

And don't mix up coffee house/restaurant coffee beverages with the home kitchen coffees. In the US, it is a different story.

Article Quality Check
I went ahead and assessed the article for Wikiproject Food and Drink against the B class article criteria. I don't think that it has gotten there yet. The article definitely needs more references, and appears to contain some factual inaccuracies according to my coffee drinking friends. It could use a history section if references for such a section can be sourced. I think the flow of the article could be improved dramatically, but I think the best improvement for helping with this would be the addition of a few more sections.

Anyhow, I thought I'd leave an explanation for my rating. Zell Faze (talk) 16:51, 11 October 2013 (UTC)