Talk:Canadian AIDS Society

Clarification regarding deletion of content about Jon Gates
Hello @Graywalls, I noticed you deleted content related to Jon Gates in the Canadian AIDS Society article, specifically his keynote speech at the 1992 Canadian AIDS Society Annual General Meeting in Halifax, Nova Scotia, where he emphasized the critical need to raise awareness about the AIDS crisis in sub-Saharan Africa.

Here's the paragraph:

In 1992, Canadian AIDS activist Jon Gates, who was himself living with AIDS, delivered a keynote speech at the Canadian AIDS Society Annual General Meeting in Halifax, Nova Scotia. He emphasized the critical need to raise awareness about the AIDS crisis in sub-Saharan Africa. Gates, who passed away in December of the same year, demonstrated a profound commitment to advocating for equal access to treatment options. During the last years of his life, he collaborated extensively with international health organizations to address the global impact of HIV/AIDS.

My understanding of that deletion is that additional citations to secondary sources are required to fix that paragraph, per your explanation to "trim more primary sourced undue content."

I wanted to discuss the reasons for the removal of this content and see if there are any specific concerns or improvements you'd like to address. I want to ensure that the article accurately reflects important, factual, and well-referenced information, while also adhering to Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you. AceSeeker (talk) 16:20, 24 April 2024 (UTC)


 * Please see WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:NPOV. YouTube videos should not be included which you can see at WP:RSPYT. Some exceptions exist, such as citing video news coverage by mainstream media. Wikipedia articles should be based primarily on secondary sources. In part, this reduces the amount of bias placed into articles by editors who choose to curate contents based on self-published and primary sources to maintain neutral point of view rather than that of organization's view or advocacy view. Graywalls (talk) 20:47, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Graywalls At the time of the first deletion, I didn't realize you were referring to YouTube videos. The historical context sources provided were from Carleton University's The AIDS Activist History Project website library. Jon Gates' speech is a PDF of the original 1992 paper document, and the second link is archival video footage taken during the speech, which is also part of their historical online resource library on YouTube. I genuinely didn't realize that was the issue; otherwise, I would have removed it right away and looked for more appropriate sources.
 * After extensive reading and attempting to understand the guidelines for primary sources like speeches, I learned that they can be used for straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source. However, any interpretation or analysis of the primary source material requires a reliable secondary source. In this case, the paragraph lacked secondary sources that could interpret or analyze Jon Gates' speech, relying solely on the primary source itself. With that understanding and good intentions, I used as a secondary source, and my interpretation was that I met the wiki guidelines.
 * I've been diligently reviewing my writing to ensure neutrality and adherence to Wikipedia guidelines, as you've mentioned. I've also been carefully selecting the citations, including using the correct template. It's disheartening to see significant parts of my contributions removed, especially when I was hoping they were fixable. Nonetheless, I'm committed to making necessary adjustments to comply with Wikipedia guidelines. I'm interested in collaborating constructively to maintain the article's integrity and respect everyone's time. AceSeeker (talk) 23:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC) AceSeeker (talk) 23:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)
 * How is covering the speech in great details of great relevance to the article about this organization? Is there more to it than that the speech was addressed to the organization? For example, general concerns or voices about meat, beef and their raising practices don't go into McDonald's page. If there's coverage on those concerns or voices specifically pertaining to McDonald's, it could merit inclusion. I've noticed many of these cause-organizations are loaded with too much background information on the subject matter that is general in nature. Graywalls (talk) 01:07, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Graywalls Covering Jon Gates' speech in the article is relevant because it sheds light on the historical context and challenges faced by the Canadian AIDS Society (CAS). Gates, as the coordinator of Canada’s Interagency Coalition on AIDS and Development, provided crucial insights into global AIDS issues. His speech emphasized progress and the importance of understanding marginalized perspectives, which aligns with CAS's mission. While maintaining neutrality and conciseness, including Gates' speech adds value to the article by offering readers informative insights into CAS's history and ongoing efforts.
 * Here is the historical context source provided on the Carleton University's The AIDS Activist History Project library website. Jon Gates' speech is a PDF of the original paper document
 * Could we collaborate before removing my contributions? This would allow me the chance to address any issues, such as inappropriate citations or wording, in line with Wikipedia guidelines. It could involve replacing citations, rephrasing sentences, or adding new citations. I'd appreciate the opportunity to discuss these changes beforehand. Thank you! AceSeeker (talk) 03:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC) AceSeeker (talk) 03:02, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

3O Response: If you want to write about this person, better to create a biography for them (Draft:Jon Gates). For this article, the content should be framed for its relevance to the Canadian AIDS Society. And I'm not sure that there is any relevance to the organization other than his giving a speech at an annual meeting. The article for Treatment Action Campaign doesn't mention the Canadian AIDS Society, and it was founded several years after Gates's death. To me, this just seems like a case of memorializing (WP:NOTMEMORIAL). If we include everyone who campaigned and died – or everyone who made a speech – it would greatly expand the article and make it difficult to find the information about the organization itself. Relevant information would be the Canadian AIDS Society's response to the world AIDS crisis, not that one person gave a speech about it at their annual meeting. The most that I feel might be included as relevant is "At the 1992 CAS general meeting, attention was called to the world AIDS crisis." but this can be taken as assumed from the preceding paragraph and redundant. So, no, I don't feel that the information belongs in this article. This is a non-binding third opinion, but I hope it helps! – Reidgreg (talk) 15:14, 26 April 2024 (UTC)


 * I appreciate your third-party perspective and the insights you provided on the ongoing discussion about the Canadian AIDS Society (CAS) article. Your input has been beneficial to me as a Wikipedia editor, and I thank you for your thoughtful contribution.
 * As a volunteer editor, I've been dedicated to shedding light on AIDS activism in Canada and addressing the lack of information about Canada's significant contributions, dominance of American-centric narratives in this area, compounded by the scarcity of experienced editors currently focusing on this topic, as its momentum has waned over time. Recognizing this gap, I aimed to enrich Wikipedia's coverage by highlighting Canada's impact on HIV/AIDS activism for a more comprehensive portrayal of this historical narrative.
 * This endeavour has been a learning experience for me, as I initially had limited knowledge of the subject matter. I hope that my contributions have helped broaden knowledge of HIV/AIDS activism in Canada, albeit in small ways. However, I've also realized the importance of collaborating with more seasoned editors, especially given the steep learning curve. As a result, I plan to focus my efforts on more mainstream topics where I can collaborate with established editors and further develop my skills.
 * Once again, I extend my heartfelt gratitude for your time, patience, and expertise. Your willingness to engage in constructive feedback has been invaluable, and I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn from your insights. AceSeeker (talk) 18:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * GPTZero suggests this response is 100% AI generated fWIW. Graywalls (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I can assure you that neither my gratitude in my note above nor my learning curve was AI generated. Both are genuine expressions of my experience and appreciation for the collaborative process on Wikipedia. It appears that you want to tarnish that, instead of simply saying thank you and moving on. AceSeeker (talk) 20:36, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Way too much tangential information
Please see my edit summaries explaining why I've removed them. Just as a comparison Michelin doesn't have a whole lot of general information about tires in a way it doesn't directly relate to the company. Those are things best addressed in other articles. Graywalls (talk) 03:00, 25 April 2024 (UTC)


 * @Graywalls I've noted your edit summaries regarding the removals which some I may not agree with for example the Jon Gates speech. I understand your perspective, but I believe certain contextual details are relevant to provide a comprehensive understanding. However, I'm open to discussing how we can refine the content to better align with Wikipedia guidelines. AceSeeker (talk) 03:07, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I don't have access to the full article on the Lancet, but what does it say that is of relevance to Canadian AIDS Society? So, I understand the speech by some coordinator at some NGO in Canada did a speech at a different NGO's meeting session, but is Canadian AIDS Society involved in this beyond just being where this speech was delivered? I ask these questions given the pattern of other tangential contents I've had to remove. Graywalls (talk) 03:38, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Graywalls The Lancet article provides insights into the broader context of HIV prevention efforts, which can be relevant to understanding the work of organizations like the Canadian AIDS Society (CAS). While the speech delivered by Jon Gates may seem tangential, it's worth noting that CAS serves as a central advocacy organization for Canadians affected by HIV/AIDS. Understanding global perspectives and strategies in HIV/AIDS prevention can inform CAS's approach and advocacy efforts. If deemed necessary, we can focus the content more squarely on CAS's involvement or relevance to the speech.
 * Could you please refrain from deleting content until we reach an agreement? I don't believe it was necessary to remove anything, and labeling my contributions as tangential comes across as rude. Let's discuss the content and find ways to improve it together. Deleting content outright isn't the best approach; it's better to work on improving it collaboratively.
 * AceSeeker (talk) 04:32, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * The Gates thing is up in the air, but much of what I've removed should not have been introduced into the article in the first place. It's mistaken to think as one can more freely add contents while removal should be more restricted suggesting that retention of contents takes precedence. Contents should be based on what's covered in reliable source, rather than scrambling for sources to fit around what organization wants itself presented. Contents should not be added based on how you want it to read with plans of eventually adding sources to go around it. Graywalls (talk) 04:50, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Graywalls I must express my disappointment with the tone of our interactions. It's crucial for editors to maintain a respectful and collaborative environment, even when disagreements arise. Accusing me of contributing in bad faith is unwarranted and unproductive. I'm here to work together to improve the article and I'd rather focus on finding common ground. AceSeeker (talk) 05:42, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * Also, I'd like to say a secondary source vetting "CAS serves as a central advocacy organization for Canadians affected by HIV/AIDS". If the Lancet article only makes a mention about where it was hosted or whom it was delivered to, it shouldn't be included. Please articulate what the Lancet article says with regard to CAS. Graywalls (talk) 04:54, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * @Graywalls The excerpt from The Lancet article provides context for Gates' actions and their impact on HIV/AIDS activism, rather than simply stating where the speech was delivered. It describes Gates' pledge and its significance without promoting any particular viewpoint or agenda.
 * Volume 372, Issue 9637, P 475-488, August 09, 2008
 * The history and challenge of HIV prevention
 * The late 1990s were a challenging period for activists and communities as well. The advent of HAART and the optimism around vaccine development at the time risked breaking down the solidarity that had existed between people living with HIV/AIDS in wealthy countries and those in the developing world. Facing this challenge, Jon Gates, the first coordinator of Canada’s Interagency Coalition on AIDS and Development and himself living with HIV/AIDS,made a dramatic speech captured on film in which he pledged to not use the new therapies until they were equally available to the poor around the world.[56] He also underlined that successful treatment access could only be achieved in parallel with successful prevention. Although Gates died of AIDS soon afterwards, his pledge was echoed by Zackie Achmat, a co-founder in 1998 of South Africa’s Treatment Action Campaign (TAC). Achmat’s personal pledge, the legitimacy of TAC’s roots in the anti-apartheid struggle, and the passion of the cause helped TAC create Africa’s first HIV/AIDS activist movement, as distinct from the many community service and support groups established before and since. Laying the foundation for a reinvigorated HIV/AIDS movement after the turn of the millennium, TAC now campaigns both “for treatment for people with HIV and to reduce new HIV infections”.
 * 56. Davis P, McKinnon H. Legacy of Jon Gates. Villon Films, 1993.
 * The citations provided, including the reference to the film by Villon Films, support the statements made in the paragraph and ensure the verifiability and reliability of the information presented. Since the content aligns with Wikipedia guidelines by providing verifiable information from reputable sources, I believed it was appropriate to include it in the article.
 * I also found the speech on Villon Films, which I believe is a more appropriate source for the article than the Carleton University YouTube link. This source provides direct access to the speech and enhances the reliability of the information presented in the article. AceSeeker (talk) 06:18, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
 * I just feel there's not enough direct connection between the speech and the organization this Wikipedia article is for, but obviously you feel differently. I requested third opinion. Graywalls (talk) 07:46, 26 April 2024 (UTC)