Talk:Cape Verdean Portuguese

Untitled
Wow, there's a good article here on the version of Portuguese spoken in Cape Verde! It needs some expanding, though, but good work so far. To the user Ten Islands, it's amazing that you know Portuguese and English. To contribute to Wikipedia in two languages is something that should be applauded. Kudos to you!

learnportuguese 20:12, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

question
Is there perhaps a split in the Cape Verdean Portuguese dialect: between the way people from the northern islands speak and the way people from the southern islands speak?

learnportuguese 02:55, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

contradictions
This article contradicts itself. On the one hand, it says that Cape Verdean is one dialect of Portuguese with no divisions. Later, it divides Cape Verdean Portuguese between that spoken in the northern islands and that spoken in the southern islands. Either two divisions need to be distinguished, or the part about CV Portuguese being a uniform dialect needs to be taken out. learnportuguese (talk) 01:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)


 * I tried to clarify that part. How is it now? Waldir talk 13:45, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

An Answer to Question
There is no "split". What this article is presupposing that the language spoken in Cape Verde is a Dialect of the Portuguese language, which it is not as it is widely publicized. The Cape Verdean Language has it's own dialects which are quite distinct. In fact Cape Verdean is a language that is currently being studied by Universities in the US. It has grammar, vocabulary, and published literary works that have nothing to do with the Portuguese language, infact, if a Portuguese person tried to read any of these publications it would be quite impossible for them to understand.

This issue has a base of study, some in english some in portuguese For example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verdean_Creole http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialeto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALUPEC http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfabeto_Unificado_para_a_Escrita_do_Caboverdiano


 * I think you are confusing Cape Verdean Creole with the Portuguese variety spoken in Cape Verde. They are two different things. Ten Islands (talk) 07:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Native speakers
How does one define native speakers of Cape Verdean Portuguese? If Cape Verdeans are not the native speakers, who is? If Cape Verdean Portugueseis not a native language, then equally no other language is - all evolved equally on the islands, the different creoles were created on the islands at the same time that that Portuguese Cape Verdean was. BOTH are equally foreign languages if one wants to argue the point. Cape Verede was uninhabited, the populations that were brought were a mix of different tribes who had to create creoles to understand each other. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 03:55, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Per our references, Cape Verdean Portuguese is the Portuguese spoken in Cape Verde , where it is not a native language . — kwami (talk) 11:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I suggest you read the article. It might just help.

Starting with the fact that the article is about Cape Verdean Portuguese, NOT any other Portuguese I could carry on, but I think this enough. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 11:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The very first sentence is "Cape Verdean Portuguese is the variety of Portuguese spoken in Cape Verde.".
 * Then, "when some linguistic phenomena occur in a systematic and regular way, they are no longer considered deviance to the standard, but rather a genuine expression of a regional community"
 * and "by one side the Portuguese in Cape Verde has developed some specificities"
 * and "on one side the Portuguese spoken in Cape Verde moves toward a development of its own characteristics, and on the other side the European Portuguese standards are still making some pressure that slows down the development of a typically Cape Verdean variety"
 * "The Portuguese spoken in Cape Verde is based on the European Portuguese" - that means, if one is based on the other, the two are separate entities.
 * "there are differences that in spite of being small are enough to set Cape Verdean Portuguese apart from European Portuguese"
 * "the Cape Verdean Portuguese on its whole a dialectal variety of Portuguese"


 * None of that supports your claim . Please provide a reference .  — kwami (talk) 11:49, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * No, you provide references -
 * And besides, you inserted that information, retaining the source that there was before, which does NOT say what you are saying, claiming it to be "Per our references". Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 11:52, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You are welcome to revert again with no foundation whatsoever for it. I'll not revert again, I'll take it up elsewhere. Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 11:55, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * You have no reference for your claim . I do have a reference for mine.  You may be correct, but you need a reference .  — kwami (talk) 12:02, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Please save everyone the trouble - where is your reference? Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 12:05, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The only reference we have, Ethnologue. There are "very few" L1 speakers of Portuguese , basically Brazilians and Portuguese who do not speak Cape Verdean.  And Portuguese is losing out to Cape Verdean, not the other way around .  — kwami (talk) 12:09, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

Kwami, but that is exactly the point I have been trying to make all along - that reference in Ethnologue is about Portuguese, i.e., the - if you want, for lack of a better word - standard Portuguese. Likewise, the article Angolan Portuguese is about the Portuguese as it is spoken in Angola, as opposed to standard Portuguese. Am I making sense? The two are seen as separate varieties - some people even comfortably switch from the one to the other.
 * The Ethnologue  article covers all varieties of Portuguese, including Cape Verdean . — kwami (talk) 13:48, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

You will find numerous sources citing the three languages of Cape Verde, including quite a few references to it here in the WP. http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/obra-visor/hispania--11/html/025dc2b8-82b2-11df-acc7-002185ce6064_51.html Rui &#39;&#39;Gabriel&#39;&#39; Correia (talk) 12:38, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
 * http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/languages-of-cape-verde-books-llc/1022881069?ean=9781157720829
 * http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Articles-Languages-Cape-Verde-Including-Portuguese-Language-Cape-Verdean-Creole-Cape-Verdean-/121702821
 * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Languages_of_Cape_Verde


 * The first two "references " are just copies of this article, so they tell us nothing . The third only mentions Cape Verdean Portuguese once , and doesn't say what they mean by it .  The last isn't a reference at all.  So we still don't have a single reference that a Cape Verdean dialect of Portuguese even exists , let alone has native speakers.
 * If I had to guess, I'd think CV Portuguese might be like Beninese French: a distinct style and accent, but no-one's, or hardly anyone's, native language. That's what Ethnologue implies.  They could be wrong, of course; we just need a better ref to say something different.  — kwami (talk) 13:35, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

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The "Division" Debunked
As a Portuguese speaker, I will try to explain what I know about CV Portuguese.

First, it is spoken by almost no one as a first language. The CV Americans that I've met that left the country as a child have almost no Portuguese speaking ability, and speak just Creole and English at home.

Therefore, depending on education in CV (which is solely in Portuguese), accents will change. And of the more colloquial accents, the divisions are clearly just because of Creole influence. So, those from the Barlavento islands have greater tendencies to speak Portuguese similarly to their accent in Creole, and the same goes for those of the Sotavento Islands. Noticeably, some from the south pronounce the /ʁ/ as the more archaic [r], and /ɨ~ɯ/ more like [ɐ], because that is the closest approximation they have in Creole.

I think it needs to be mentioned that the division mostly depends on person, education, and that as in most languages, that accents will vary slightly from person to person. And, like I mentioned before, those with higher education, work in government, media, et cetera may speak a dialect closer to, although quite distinct to PT Portuguese, which is the "CV Standard" this article discusses.

Let me know if anything I said was incorrect/unclear.