Talk:Capocollo

Various comments
Why are Pancetta, Sopressata, Salami, and Prosciutto listed here? They are nothing at all like Capicola, except they happen to be cured meats, soppressata and salami are sauages made with ground meat, panchetta is a pork belly, thant has been cured and rolled and tied, then hung to dry, where as Proscuitto is pork hip(that has been cured and hung to dry), and finally capicola, which is made with pork shoulder (salt then stuffed into a stomach size casing (much larger than sauage casings, pressed and hung to dry)all of these cured meats are of Italian origin( by these names anyway). Bologna, Mortadella, and Pepperoni are all cooked force meats, (which meant the have been spiced and ground, and often almost blended then fed into casings and cooked inside the casing, then cooled and sliced as deli meat Actually, the closest thing I've found to Capicola is the Polish sausage Krakowska.--[

Pork shoulders (the front two legs) are also commonly reffered to as pork butts, in the US, an abbriviation of the term "Boston butt"

Capicola as spiced ham
Most Commercially available capicola(more often called capicollo in this form) although in most of major cites it is often called capi ham, or spicy ham, is actually Capicola cotta, which actuallly cooked and is also sometimes a force meat and not acutally a cured whole muscle product at all. You should be able to see the muscle fiber in the capicola, with lines of fat running throught it, the same goes for ham, it should not look homogenous(all one texture) ham can easily be made without sending the animal through a blender first

This is exactly what I mean! -> --BillyTFried 06:50, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Real Capicollo looks a lot like uncooked bacon, although it should fall apart easily, Most North Americans are terrified of any food that looks anything like the animal it came from/

And here is another example I recently came across: BillyTFried (talk) 04:42, 13 September 2009 (UTC)



Trivia
It may be notable that a lot of folks with Italian ancestry pronounce it like gabbaGOOL. I'm not sure it's notable that Tony Soprano pronounces it the same as the rest of us. I'm going to yank it for now.--Jzerocsk 13:48, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually, seeing that BilFlis added it, I'm going to leave it for his comments. I thought it was added by an anonymous editor :-) --Jzerocsk 13:51, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you have a point, but this is why the section is called "Trivia" and not "Italian-American Pronunciation." Also, I'm changing "The Godfather Trilogy" to "Godfather," because as far as I know the meat is only seen in part 1. 76.81.218.167 06:47, 5 May 2007 (UTC)


 * The trivia section should stay, especially considering the popularity of the Sopranos. I bet there were lots of midwesterners scratching their heads when they watched the show...  The article helps people understand the context of the slang "gabbaGOOL".  Also, my mother's side is from the Bronx, and we always said "gabbaGOHL".72.78.6.187 21:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Spelling
It is understood that the same item can have different names in different languages. Anglophones say "Munich," German speakers say "München." There are language-specific Wikipedias for this purpose. I recognize that in Italian, capocollo or a variant of that is the way it is written, and the spelling/title is adjusted accordingly in the Italian-Language Article.


 * For the English-language wikipedia, the common English spelling should be used (not the Italian one). If "capicola" is not the most common spelling in English, then by all means the most common English spelling should be used, however the Italian spelling is not necessarily the most common English spelling. This is also why there is a list of alternate spellings.  :--Jzerocsk 17:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes but the original Italian word (capocollo) from which gabagool obviously derives, should be mentioned in the article, which should ne in turn linked with the Italian Wiki article on Capocollo: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capocollo --213.140.21.227 (talk) 19:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Hello friends. I would just like to make mention of some facts.  This word is dialect or Neapolitan language and not Italian.  When most Italians came to America 50-100 years ago, they did not speak standard Italian, Italy was still a young country (only founded in 1860).  Most Italians spoke their local language before Italian was imposed.  Therefore, this Neapolitan word has Latin, not Italian, origins.  In Latin it's "caput collum" and in Neapolitan it became "capecuollo."  Your spelling is wrong, you're spelling it according to the slang/American accent.  Using Italian "capocollo" is also wrong, as I mentioned before.  If you want proof that even Italians acknowledge that this is a "Neapolitan" meal, look at the Italian article: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucina_campana#Antica_cucina_campana and you will see the Neapolitan spelling "capecuollo".  Therefore it is no use to have the wrong spelling.  How many of these restaraunteurs in New Jersey are fluent in Neapolitan or Italian?  I'm sorry if this is how they "think" it's spelled, it's not the case.  The correct spelling is "capecuollo" and it can be pronounced "kapakwol" or "gabagula".  But accent/pronunciation and spelling are two different things.  Therefore, I suggest we redirect the article to the appropriate spelling.  Cheers, distanti saluti. --Italia1raga (talk) 12:47, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a really interesting explanation of the word origins from Latin onward. The correct spelling in any other language really doesn't matter, however. Since this is the English-language wikipedia, the English word is what matters. Just as the English word for Napoli is Naples, the English word for Capecuollo may be (and is) different. Jzerocsk (talk) 16:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Exactly. The "correct" spelling of the capital of Italy is http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roma but I doubt that's going to force anyone to change the spelling of the title of this article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rome BillyTFried (talk) 15:47, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Entire article copied from reference.com
I noticed that this article is a word-for-word copy-and-paste of the article at reference.com: http://www.reference.com/search?r=13&q=Capicola -- 162.136.192.1 13:42, 27 July 2007 (UTC)


 * Heh-heh, that's because reference.com copied it from here (look at the top of that page). -- BillFlis 13:56, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Revamped article and FDA description
Can I take it out? Does it really contribute anything to this article? I for one think that even the Big Mac is an interesting, unique, and tasty food item, and would also not really wanna see the FDA description of it as probably..... Two highly fatty beef patties, with multiple fat soaked buns and high calorie "special" sauce. I mean, come on, we could also have a scientific break down of all the nutrient and chemical reaction that occurred during curing, but who wants to read that??? I read this article and get hungry, and then hit that line, and become unhungry. :) Just my 2 cents. BillyTFried (talk) 02:29, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Who wants to read that? .... well who wants to read about an american tv show that is of no relevance to the rest of the world about an Italian food item, can't you guys get an american wikipedia or something. It's not relevant. Riveira2 (talk) 08:24, 5 July 2008 (UTC)Riveira

I've removed the FDA paragraph, not because the article is too 'Americanised', but it is confusing and contradictory as it stands in the article. As BillyTFried demonstrated, there seems to be a distinction made by some Americans between Coppa and Capicola. The description of the preparation of Capicola in the article seems to correspond to coppa (NB uncooked), but the FDA description corresponds more closely to this deli capicola, or coppa cotta in the article (cooked). Unless someone is prepared to revise the article with these nuances in mind, I don't think the FDA quote deserves to be in there. Melaena (talk) 21:57, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Americanised
This article is biased towards the United States and needs to be corrected to represent the rest of the world.I would suggest creating a new article called gabagool, and linking that article to here. Maybe also detailing gabagool in a Wikipedia to the Sopranos. This article should reflect that this is culinary product and any reference to the Soprano's should be written on that article. What does anyone else think? Fimmmark (talk) 00:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)


 * Including info specific to the US does not equate to excluding info about the rest of the world or expressing any "bias", and does not warrant the removal of notable info. If you feel this article is MISSING some world-view oriented info, then by all means feel free to ADD IT. And as far as world views goes, before I edited this article it had NONE. And I not only cleaned up and restored the Sopranos/Godfather references but also added the fact that the versions of Capicola/Coppa from Piacentina and Calabria have European Union protected status, the Neapolitan and Latin origins of the names, the fact that it's a typical dish of the city of Piacenza, Italy and is also popular in Switzerland and Corsica as well of the fact that it was originally hand massaged by its Italian makers. Americanized? Please! And there is already an article called Gabagool to which I added this line: "Gabagool" redirects here. For the Italian cured cold cut meat, see Capicola.


 * Having said all this, I do find it interesting that your username was created only yesterday just a few hours after I posted a WP:3RR warning on Riveira2's talk page for his repeated removal without consensus of the very same info your complaining about and his very similar comment from above of "can't you guys get an american wikipedia or something".


 * It's also notable that your very first and ONLY contribution to Wikipedia has been this very post which can be seen here: Special:Contributions/Fimmmark


 * This leads me to wonder what a WP:Requests for checkuser/IP check on both of your usernames might discover. If you are not following me, then please review: WP:Sock puppetry before you get yourself in trouble. BillyTFried (talk) 17:51, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it was created yesterday as I could not find my previous account password - and no it is not Riveira2 or Jehan60188 who also disagrees with your views. I have noticed that you have edited the article 5 times in a 24 hour period and constantly since 03.07.08. I have also seen that you have failed to reach a compromise or discuss improving or making suggestions above as I have done. I am also discussing adding the Globalisation warning on again due to the following United States, Italian Americans, HBO, Sopranos, The Godfather, US FDA - which are all applicable to US Culture and not with a Italian regional delicacy controlled by the standards of the European Union. Any comments? Fimmmark (talk) 06:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)


 * While I have my own opinions that the references you mention should be removed on notability grounds, I agree with BillyTFried that the presence of US-Centric information does not imply that US-based editors are trying to create a US bias.. If the article needs more global information then someone from outside the US should "Be Bold" and add some in! Jzerocsk (talk) 17:15, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

New Jersey
Capicola may be a gourmet item in some countries but in New Jersey it is lunch meat. Nitpyck (talk) 05:39, 31 January 2010 (UTC)


 * I am also from NJ and have seen it treated as both. BillyTFried (talk) 02:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

I only came to the article looking for the cured meat that Tony Soprano often eats and calls "gabagul" - it looked like what I know as coppa, which is what the Germans call capicola, so here I am. Anyway, there's another New Jersey reference: It should be in the wiki, as everyone knows Tony Soprano likes his gabagul.YusufAlBinVeryNaughty (talk) 20:47, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Calabrian salume
AT the top the article says it's a Calabrian salume, at the bottom it lists four designated "traditional" regions -- indeed, one being Basilicata just north of Calabria, but the rest far far north (in more traditional pig-territory, mostly)... I would just remove the Calabria-reference as unsourced (Italian version says "from all over italy", but it doesn't say much in general).

But I'm eating coppa from Modena as we speak, so I may be settentrionalically biased if such a word exists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.246.115 (talk) 11:13, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

"Whole" what?
The first sentence ends, "made from pork shoulder or neck, and dry-cured whole."

Unless some other dialect of English uses "whole" as a noun in this case, I have to ask: dry-cured whole what? --Joe Sewell (talk) 16:44, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Move to Capocollo
I propose this article be moved to capocollo because: --Makkachin (talk) 19:14, 7 December 2014 (UTC)
 * 1) I just bought a meat in New York, and it's labeled "capocollo".
 * 2) The first word bolded in this article was already "capocollo".
 * 3) The article doesn't include the spelling "capicola", not even once.
 * 4) Seems like we already want to use the spelling "capocollo"

‎Gabagool, capocollo, capicola
‎need to explain use of gabagool in mass media Xb2u7Zjzc32 (talk)

Some well deserved comments
I feel compelled to make a series of comments to clarify a few things. I think I'm qualified to make a few points.

1. The mainstream names for the meat described in this article are "coppa" and "capocollo". You can take a look at the article in the Italian Wikipedia. This is not an issue of what side of the world you are or what language you speak as advanced by Jzerocsk and BillyTFried. This is an issue of what the actual pronunciation is and since there is no English word for "coppa" and "capocollo", the same word is used and the same pronunciation should be used.

2. The first sentence says "Capocollo [kapoˈkɔllo], also known as [gaba'goul] (in certain parts of the United States, notably among Italian-Americans in New Jersey, as made famous by the HBO Television series "The Sopranos"; cappicola, coppa in Canada, capicollo or capicolla)".

It's not clear if "cappicola, coppa in Canada, capicollo or capicolla)" belongs to Sopranos or Canada because of the terrible punctuation. Also, "cappicola" is wrong.

3. I don't think the HBO Television series "The Sopranos" should be the frame of reference for the pronunciation of coppa/capocollo. The Sopranos are by far the bible of the Italian language.

4. "Gabagool" is nothing more than a horrendous warping of the word "capocollo" by the NY/NJ immigrants and their descendants who pride themselves to be Italian and probably know little or nothing about Italy, its languages, its cultures ... let's not even mention the food. This is clearly the result of perception of what is Italian, the medias and what people learned from ancestors that were mostly illiterate and did not even speak Italian. Let's keep in mind Italy was not even a country until 1861 and people did not speak the Italian language until television until the 1950s, particularly in rural communities. Gabagool does not exist as a word and, quite honestly, it sounds really horrible.

5. Words like "gnocchi", "lasagne" and "Parmigiano Reggiano" have been sufficiently butchered by English language speakers so I don't think the same thing needs to be done to coppa/capocollo which should be simply be pronounced kop-pa/kapocol-lo. It cannot be simpler than that. Italia1raga on this page makes a series of valid comments that reflect this tendency of accepting anything that is on TV or is from Naples as the bible.

6. BillyTFried on this page posted images that show what happens when you let people and businesses use and print names of products that should be standardized all over the world like the world "tiramisù" which is erroneously spelled "tiramisu" because, obviously, non-English languages in the U.S.A. are constantly dismantled (it's too much work to spell things properly - accents do not exist in English). The product on the left clearly says "capocolla" which is totally wrong. This is not surprising when you see all kinds of shocking names and ingredients listed in menus of restaurants that label themselves as Italian. A few months ago I found over 25 errors in a menu for an Italian-wanna be restaurant in town.

7. Makkachin makes a good point. However, this pages, currently entitled "capicola", should really be called "coppa" or "capocollo" which would reflect the two mainstream names for the meat.

ICE77 (talk) 04:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 20 September 2016

 * The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section. 

The result of the move request was: Moved to Capocollo &mdash; Amakuru (talk) 14:02, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Capicola → ? – The current title is not the most common name and is a regional variant. The issue has been discussed before on this page here, here and here. Google Books shows greater usage for either "coppa" or "capocollo" than the current title. (I controlled for English sources by adding the word "sausage" to the search.) "Coppa" gets 2310 hits and "capocollo" gets 1080 hits versus  only 988 hits for the current title.  I suggest coppa (which would require moving a DAB page), coppa (meat) (or coppa (salume) et al. which wouldn't; cf. it:coppa (salume)) or capocollo (a more precise title). Any ideas? —  AjaxSmack  13:38, 20 September 2016 (UTC)


 * AjaxSmack, I totally agree with the title change for this page: coppa or capocollo are definitely preferable. For more comments see above.


 * ICE77 (talk) 03:57, 21 September 2016 (UTC)


 * As an Italian I would say "capocollo" but for sure coppa is also ok (but it means other things, that's way I prefer capocollo). I am not googling to pick one or the other according to the most common or reliable source. In any case capicola sounds weird and the page should be moved.--Alexmar983 (talk) 08:24, 22 September 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Gabagool

 * I undid your recent edit because Wikipedia can't ignore common use because we consider it incorrect. We're here to report reality, not to shape it. If you can find reliable sources giving their view that the term "gabagool" is erroneous, we can mention that people hold that view. Happy to discuss this further.—Neil P. Quinn (talk) 17:19, 23 December 2016 (UTC)