Talk:Capoeira music

Page Creation
Hi, I don't know if this page belongs on Wikipedia or not, so I welcome any opinions to the contrary. I thought, however, that the music section of Capoeira was lacking without a few example songs.

Feel free to add more songs. Try to keep the list alphabetized and the formatting the same throughout. If when you open the edit page and it tells you that the page has become too large, post here. This will never pretend to be an exhaustive list, however, so the page should not be allowed to get too big.

--Asbestos 13:00, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Toques
If anyone has a sheet music program that could be used to make an image of the toques, that would be very helpful. I haven't found a non-copyrighted image on the web, and hesitate to try to write it clearly using ASCI.

Examples of toques can be found at (4 languages)and

--Asbestos 14:59, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)


 * I don't think a monster list of toques belongs here, but one or two to explain their general character would be a good idea. There's no really standard notation for them, though (at least, the various books I've read all use different notations).  But see also berimbau, where there's a list, with no descriptions, and an audio sample of the toque de angola with variations (probably too many to be a good example). Andrew 06:17, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * I can write out the basic toques, but where to put them? Here or the berimbau article or in a new article 'Capoeira Toques'... let me know (new here to the wiki world). Also, there seems to be dispute over even the basic forms of some of the toques. eg. in the second link you provided the Cavalaria mirrors what I’ve been taught, but the Iuna and Regional are much simplified. I guess all this should be reflected in the entry... Coalhada


 * i answered my own question. Creating a new entry Capoeira Toques.

More or less appropriate
Great work on this page, Asbestos. With regards to whether it is appropriate for Wikipedia as it is now, I firmly believe that it is, but have a few comments:
 * 1) Capoeira songs doesn't really fit with Wikipedia's naming conventions, so I have moved it.
 * 2) I reworded the first sentence on the grounds of Neutral Point-of-View
 * 3) Most importantly, the songs that are currently part of the article -- where do they come from? If they are copyrighted, then they can't be included here (though quotes from them can be).  If they are old folk songs that aren't copyrighted, they could be included but shouldn't be except to illustrate a specific point (though they could be moved to Wikisource).  Tuf-Kat 02:53, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)


 * Hi TUF-KAT, thanks for your comments (and for moving the article). The songs are all old folk songs, and certainly have no copyrights attached to them. My reason for inserting them is that the songs of capoeira add to the understanding of capoeira music, and of the game, especially as many of them recount the histories of the game or of the teachers. This was never going to be a large list of songs, but rather a select few. Let me know if you think that this isn't appropriate, however. --Asbestos 04:48, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)
 * I suppose it's not too bad as is, though I'll warn you that someone else will likely remove them sooner or later. Tuf-Kat 11:26, Nov 13, 2004 (UTC)
 * I agree that capoeira songs do tell something about the game (if you speak Portuguese) but I don't think Wikipedia is the place to host a large collection of songs. However, copyright permitting, I think since the songs are so short, it's reasonable to include an example or two of each type.  For example, writing an example ladainha followed by an example louvaçao (the article calls them chulas) would help clarify how the roda begins; writing some examples of quadras and of other particular types of corrido would be nice.
 * As the page stands now, it looks too much like it's trying to become a song database. That's not appropriate for Wikipedia (although perhaps for Wikisource, if copyright permits).  I would not count on copyright permission for all the songs, though.  While many (most?) are effectively folk songs, some songs were written by a particular mestre who has a plausible copyright claim on them.
 * So, my suggestion is this: rewrite the article so it talks about capoeira music, with things like:
 * What are songs about?
 * What kinds of songs are there?
 * When is each song sung?
 * Then illustrate these answers with a song or two.
 * If nobody complains about this idea, I'll try to do it. Andrew 06:09, Nov 28, 2004 (UTC)


 * There is definately a need for a wiki style database for capoeira songs, but you are correct that it does not belong in the wikipedia proper. I agree with Aarchiba that there is an abundance of material about the music of capoeira that could be written here. The issue I see is in maintaining npov. Any discussion of the music of capoeira, including the bateria, the context of songs, their meaning, etc, is all heavily influenced by style (angola, regional, contemporanea, atual, etc), school, and individual mestres. For example, if you ask any angola mestre, he will tell you that ladainhas are the province of capoeira angola, and that Bimba sung quadras at the begining of his rodas. But most contemporary schools incorporate elements of the "traditional" bateria and song styles, and they sing ladainhas. I don't believe I have the wiki writing chops to dodge that particular bullet.--Spyrral 19:09, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

abalou capoeira
as far as i know, it's an erroneous (yet common) version of "abalou cajoeira abalou", the cajo tree shook. I'm not sure so I'm not deleting it.

Cleaned up
I reworked this page to include more specific information about the music. I also got rid of the toques section and linked it to the berimbau page because there is much more info there. If anyone has anything else to add, go for it.

Jmckaskle 19:41, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Also
The lyrics provided are public domain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jmckaskle (talk • contribs) 19:42, August 24, 2007 (UTC)

Melody, syncopation, improvisation
I've added more on melody (both vocal melody and berimbau melody) and information about syncopation and improvisation in the music and how the supporting instruments work together to lay a rhythmic foundation.

Jmckaskle 01:55, 28 August 2007 (UTC)


 * Regarding the 'NB' section at the bottom, in particular the use of multiple atabaques - In my group, Cordão de Ouro, we usually use 2 atabaques in our rodas. I've never been to any other groups' rodas, but I think we should get a source about the 'standard' bateria (for lack of a better term). Richard Jackson 14:12, 14 September 2007 (UTC)


 * Will do. Thanks for the feed back. I'll look for sources to back up the blanket statement. Two atabaques in a roda is a rarity in capoeira, but not unheard of. Where is your group located? Jmckaskle (talk) 20:07, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The musical characterizations were a great help to me. I do find references to toadas in capoeira literature, and recordings in many places, yet there is no mention of toadas here. A brief characterization of toadas by someone trained in music would, I believe, not be out of place. translator (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The use of the word toada is a bit problematic. Ana Paula Rezende Macedo has an article called, "Capoeira Angola: Historica, Persistencias E Transformacoes," that gives an example of a toada in the context of capoeira, however, doesn't go in to say exactly what characterizes a toada as being different from any other sung musical form. Where as Lee Sun Joo, in the thesis, "A Study of Nationalistic Expression of the Choro in Heitor Villa-Lobos's Chamber Works with Bassoon," describes a toada as sung in parallel thirds, and related closely to the European music (specifically, the Spanish Tonada) and of flexible form and rhythm and generally of a romantic nature. Other sources say the toada is religious in content, other sources link it to dance music in Minas Gerais. I don't know if it is extemporized or composed, or if there are different forms of it (which is probably most likely) and if toada isn't being used generically like we might use the word "tune," which other sources hint at, so that a corrido, ladainha, and quadra are all examples of a toada.Jmckaskle (talk) 19:02, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

This counts are JUST SO WRONG, both the person who posted the first counts, and also the one who is trying to correct him. What you are calling BEATS, as the high sound, played in the Angola rhythm, are actually OFFBEATS. The correct signature for angola goes as such: [1 2 and 3 4 and], where:

1 = silence or caxixi

2 = low sound (dom)

and = high sound (dim)

3 = silence again

4 = low sound again (dom)

and = high sound again (dim)

Ps- note im not writng the (TCH TCH) sound of the coin on the wire, which are, respectivly, on the the third and fourth 1/4 notes of beat 1 and 3. Im keeping only the two main sounds (dom dim)

Im writing as an active capoeirista, graduated Mestre by Mestre Marrom, from Rio, with a long career and experience with all the big mestres in Brazil, from different styles, such as mestre Peixinho, Suassuna, Boca Rica, Bigodinho etc.

As a capoeirista-musician I produced, recorded and played in ground-breaking capoeira cds such as Marrom capoeira, Mestre Boca Rica e Bigodinho and Mestre Claudio from Feira de Santana and Felipe de Santo Amaro.

I developed a project called MUSICAPOEIRA, dedicated to capoeira music. You can get an ideia here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ferraduramusicapoeira/

I suggest you to read RAMIRO MUSSOTO's definitive work on berimbau, with the right notation:

G934h Guerra, Sérgio Garcia Hereros / Sérgio Garcia Guerra. – – Salvador: Edições Maianga, 2009. 260 p. : il. ; 30 x 30cm + 1 CD-ROM, com músicas captadas nas províncias angolanas do Namibe e Cunene. Textos em português e inglês. ISBN 978-85-88543-46-1 1. Fotografias. 2. Hereros (Povo africano) – Obras ilustradas. 3. Etnologia - Hereros (Povo africano) – Obras ilustradas. I. Título. CDD: 779

If you just take time to listen to capoeira songs, you will see that every 4/4 bar repeats the angola pattern twice, also in MPB its the same. Check Gilberto Gils Parabolicamara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3e1S2UGHA0

Well, hope it helps and you edit the article. Im happy to respond to any email: omriferra@gmail.com

OMRI FERRADURA BREDA

Omriferra (talk) 19:58, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Counts May Be Wrong
This counts are JUST SO WRONG, both the person who posted the first counts, and also the one who is trying to correct him. What you are calling BEATS, as the high sound, played in the Angola rhythm, are actually OFFBEATS. The correct signature for angola goes as such: [1 2 and 3 4 and], where: 1 = silence or caxixi 2 = low sound (dom) and = high sound (dim) 3 = silence again 4 = low sound again (dom) and = high sound again (dim) Ps- note im not writng the (TCH TCH) sound of the coin on the wire, which are, respectivly, on the the third and fourth 1/4 notes of beat 1 and 3. Im keeping only the two main sounds (dom dim) Im writing as an active capoeirista, graduated Mestre by Mestre Marrom, from Rio, with a long career and experience with all the big mestres in Brazil, from different styles, such as mestre Peixinho, Suassuna, Boca Rica, Bigodinho etc. As a capoeirista-musician I produced, recorded and played in ground-breaking capoeira cds such as Marrom capoeira, Mestre Boca Rica e Bigodinho and Mestre Claudio from Feira de Santana and Felipe de Santo Amaro. I developed a project called MUSICAPOEIRA, dedicated to capoeira music. You can get an ideia here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ferraduramusicapoeira/ I suggest you to read RAMIRO MUSSOTO's definitive work on berimbau, with the right notation: G934h Guerra, Sérgio Garcia Hereros / Sérgio Garcia Guerra. – – Salvador: Edições Maianga, 2009. 260 p. : il. ; 30 x 30cm + 1 CD-ROM, com músicas captadas nas províncias angolanas do Namibe e Cunene. Textos em português e inglês. ISBN 978-85-88543-46-1 1. Fotografias. 2. Hereros (Povo africano) – Obras ilustradas. 3. Etnologia - Hereros (Povo africano) – Obras ilustradas. I. Título. CDD: 779

If you just take time to listen to capoeira songs, you will see that every 4/4 bar repeats the angola pattern twice, also in MPB its the same. Check Gilberto Gils Parabolicamara: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3e1S2UGHA0 Well, hope it helps and you edit the article. Im happy to respond to any email: omriferra@gmail.com OMRI FERRADURA BREDA

Omriferra (talk) 19:59, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

I think the musical counts are described incorrectly in these wikipedia pages. The three successive claps, which corresponds to the atabaque and pandeiro) are 3-4-1. So, the berimbau ch-ch are the 1/8th notes of the 2nd beat.  I submit the following two songs for consideration since they have non-traditional capoeira instruments accompaniment:  Pedir o Axé and Noite da Suadade.  The lyrics of both the call and response come in on the one, which I contend is the last of the three successive claps.  For the Angola toque, the shake of the caxixi would be the 1.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.34.62.53 (talk) 04:34, 19 September 2008 (UTC)


 * You have a good point. I addressed this concept, though unfortunately somewhat vaguely, in the syncopation section of the article. In a sense, there is no true 1, as 1 and 3 are interchangeable and depend on the lyrics of the corrido to determine where we feel the toque begins, ie. where we feel 1 falls in the toque. And that can still be subjective. This is true for just about any African-derived musical form based on short, repeating rhythmic cells. A good idea would be to address this in the article more rigorously. Jmckaskle (talk) 18:23, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Notation
What is the source for the notation for the Angola and São Bento Grande toques? Using half notes in place of quarter notes is confusing for anyone who knows how to read music. If no one objects, I'll write out them out in proper notation. Focomoso (talk) 06:45, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * As of right now, there is no standard for berimbau notation. The half notes and quarter notes were not refering to note duration, but to whether that particular note was muted or unmuted (opened or closed): Half note for open, quarter note for closed. The timeline underneath the notes indicate duration. The idea is to present a notation packing as much information as possible with as few symbols as possible, be presented clearly, and hopefully aesthetically. Other notations include purely ASCII representation (including in printed notation), use of various different marks over and under the notes to indicate performance stye, and even double staff notation. A notation legend here would clear things up, but was included in the capoeira toques page. Jmckaskle (talk) 18:47, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Suggestion: Capoeira in Popular Culture (heavy metal)
Hi.

I'm making a recommendation/request to mention a relevant usage the Capoeira Music in the Heavy Metal. The justification is the exemplification of alternative usages of the Capoeira Music.

It could be listed as "Capoeira in Popular Culture"; although (for my example below) it seems more natural to include list it as an example of "Folk Metal" but this one is commonly accepted to refer to Europe heavy metal: "Folk metal is a sub-genre of heavy metal music that developed in Europe during the 1990s. As the name suggests, the genre is a fusion of heavy metal with traditional folk music."

The most notable example of Capoeira in Heavy Metal comes from the Brazilian Heavy Metal Band "Sepultura", Capoeira is sometimes included in their songs adding an very distinctive tone that identifies the band comes from Brazil, for example: Attitude (Sepultura Song).

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.179.71.200 (talk) 02:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

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