Talk:Caprigliola bridge collapse

Need of more information and photographs
Thank you for helping to develop this article on the recent collapse of the Caprigliola bridge. What are the exact causes of this accident? Free of rights photographs would be appreciated. Shinkolobwe (talk) 16:18, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I added needs-photo to WikiProject Italy and added Photo requested, which added some categories indicating that a photo is being requested. GoingBatty (talk) 18:34, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * The Euronews website shows photographs that have been taken by the Italian police (carabinieri). Question: are these photographs taken by a public service in Italy free of rights and can we upload them on the commons at Wikimedia? How to know? In advance, Thank you for your answer. Shinkolobwe (talk) 21:31, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I did some research and found that commons:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/Italy states "Works created by or on behalf of either the government...have 20 years of duration of the rights." GoingBatty (talk) 22:33, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * So, unfortunately, we cannot use these photographs. OK, pity. Thank you. Shinkolobwe (talk) 23:15, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

What about using GoogleMap pictures. You will notice several cracks. https://www.google.com/maps/place/SP70,+54011+Albiano+Magra+MS,+Italie/@44.173815,9.9244711,286m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x12d51d8c2bda90cf:0xdd5aabc1e837a15c!8m2!3d44.1732764!4d9.9086246

MAUDOUX (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Google Maps and Google StreetView images are protected by copyright, and we cannot include them. Verbcatcher (talk) 16:00, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Looking directly to the Google licence, it seems less clear if it is for a non-commercial work and that proper credits are given to Google:
 * https://www.google.com/intl/en_be/help/terms_maps/
 * https://www.google.com/permissions/geoguidelines/
 * To be carefully checked. Anyway, as discussed here below on the delicate question of structural engineering to unravel the root causes of the collapse, it is better to remain prudent. Shinkolobwe (talk) 17:26, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Photographs requested from the Engineering project on Italian Wikipedia
Free of copyright photographs of the bridge have been requested here at the Bar degli Ingegneri

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussioni_progetto:Ingegneria

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discussioni_progetto:Ingegneria#Richiesta_di_fotografie_per_il_ponte_della_Caprigliola,_detto_anche_ponte_di_Albiano_o_ponte_di_Albiano_Magra

Quindi, per favore, rispondete qui di seguito. In anticipo, molte grazie, Shinkolobwe (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2020 (UTC) So, please, answer hereafter. In advance, many thanks, Grazie mille. Shinkolobwe (talk) 23:13, 11 April 2020 (UTC)

What is the best name for the collapsed bridge
What is the best name for the collapsed bridge: Caprigliola bridge, Albiano bridge, or Albiano Magra bridge? The two municipalities are located on both sides of the Magra river. I started the page with the first name I read in an Italian newspaper because no name was immediately given for the bridge by the international newspapers. Shinkolobwe (talk) 16:55, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Ponte Muggia, from the name of its architect and designer, Prof. Attilio Muggia, then pioneer of reinforced concrete at Bologne University, by analogy with Ponte Morandi, could also be an alternative. However, the best name would certainly be the name commonly used by people living in the area and using it. So, how to identify it? Any clue? Shinkolobwe (talk) 10:32, 10 April 2020 (UTC)


 * Several Italian sources call it 'Ponte di Albiano'.. Albiano Magra is significantly larger than Caprigliola, and the bridge was probably built to link Albiano Magra to what was then the main road up the Magra valley. Based on this I favour 'Albiano Bridge' or possibly 'Albiano road bridge'. Verbcatcher (talk) 13:58, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * However, several other sources use 'Ponte di Caprigliola'. Verbcatcher (talk) 14:05, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

On the German Wikipedia site, they called the bridge: Ponte di Albiano Magra. See hereafter: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponte_di_Albiano_Magra Shinkolobwe (talk) 17:21, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
 * It is thus necessary to avoid any confusion between Albiano Magra and another municipality also named Albiano, a comune in the autonomous province of Trentino in north Italy. Shinkolobwe (talk) 09:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Bridge coordinates
44°10'26.4"N 9°55'31.7"E

44.173991, 9.925465


 * coordinates        = 44.174°N, 9.92547°W

For Morandi Bridge it was: }}
 * coordinates        =44.42583°N, 8.88889°W


 * region             =Tuscany


 * province           =Massa and Carrara

For further use in the page. Shinkolobwe (talk) 18:16, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Infobox bridge
Complete Infobox bridge template available here for further use (copy and paste) in the page. Need to edit the source code for copying the relevant elements. Shinkolobwe (talk) 18:24, 9 April 2020 (UTC)
 * - thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 18:27, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Translation of Italian articles in English: need of review
The automatic translation of Italian articles into English is almost fine, but sometimes some technical words or bridge structural engineering vocabulary translations such as "capital" and "batteries" used to describe the reconstruction operations after the World War II still puzzle me, so I did not use them. Any explanation to avoid confusion? Shinkolobwe (talk) 12:05, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

A good technical terms translation dictionay is available at iarc.org: https://www.piarc.org/en/activities/Road-Dictionary-Terminology-Road-Transport/Dictionary-Terminology-Translation-Definition-Term-Search?q=&s=it&t1=&t2=&scope=term

DeepL Translator based on deep learning can also give good results:

https://www.deepl.com/

The Italian term "capitello'" was translated in English as "capital", an unknown term in structural engineering. Shinkolobwe (talk) 19:48, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

Cracks visible on the deck pavement with Google Street
Many cracks were already visible on the deck pavement of the bridge with Google Street before the bridge collapsed. This could give some hints or clues to the investigators to attempt to unravel the root causes of the disaster. Shinkolobwe (talk) 15:07, 10 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The surface cracks may give clues to structural engineers, but we should not mention them unless they are mentioned by a reliable source. Superficial cracks would be unlikely to lead to a collapse. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:57, 10 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with you, really superficial fissures cannot say anything. However, if you look yourself on Google Street here, it seems these cracks through the asphalt, sometimes on the whole width of the road, could maybe still tell something to a specialist. However, as I am not an expert in structural engineering, I also prefer to be prudent and to rely on the technical advice of specialists in this field to explain the strange domino effect in this collapse. What was the initiating event that triggered such a disaster on a bridge in reinforced concrete with arches working in compression? No cable stayed, nor pre- or post-tensioning cables subjected to corrosion or creep in this bridge. Shinkolobwe (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2020 (UTC)

2011 collapse of a bridge downstream
Should we mention the collapse of the Ponte della Colombiera in 2011, downstream on the same river? This is covered in Alluvione dello Spezzino e della Lunigiana del 25 ottobre 2011 and Magra. We have a picture of that collapse, but I am reluctant to include it as it could be misleading to a casual reader.


 * No chance with the bridges in Italy in April 2020. Indeed, on 02 April, another, but smaller, bridge collapses close to Gonnesa in Sardinia, according to La Nuova Sardegna. See here : La Nuova Sardegna: A bridge collapses, a tragedy close to Gonnesa. Shinkolobwe (talk) 17:10, 10 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The other bridge should be mentioned under "see also", because it is the same flowing river with bed, maybe a similar construction and the same region with whether events that could have damaged the bridges both (!) already in year 2011, but the "weaker" collapsed, the other have lost stability (cracks). --LudwigSebastianMicheler (talk) 11:35, 4 May 2020 (UTC)

First bridge with reinforced concrete?
According to the reference https://www.ingenio-web.it/26507-crolla-un-ponte-sul-fiume-magra-informazioni-e-video the bridge has not been the fist bridge of this type in italy. 1900 Attilio Muggia has first constructed the first bridge on the basis of reinforced concrete with 8 arches at the river Po in Piacenza.--Salino01 (talk) 08:42, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Due to the same reference the inauguration took place on 25 October! what is your reference for the date 11 October?--Salino01 (talk) 08:44, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your complements of information and your relevant questions. I was not aware of the bridge with 8 arches already built by Attilio Muggia on the river Po in Piacenza. So, it deserves to be corrected or mentioned in the page.

For the inauguration date of the bridge, I found the date of 11 October 1908 on several websites, a.o., here: Reference 10 name ="Voceapuana_1":

http://www.voceapuana.com/lunigiana-e-apuane/attualita/-il-ponte-costruito-da-mio-nonno-era-sopravvissuto-alle-mine-tedesche-27210.aspx

An automatic translation of the page in English by Google Chrome gave the following:

"On 11 October 1908 the bridge was inaugurated, bringing the populations of the two banks of the Magra and the lower Lunigiana into modernity".

Afterwards, I also stumbled upon the date of 25 October 1908 on another page. So, there is an uncertainty on the precise inauguration date, but at least, it was in October 1908. Best regards, Shinkolobwe (talk) 10:30, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I found the following reference corroborating your question:

I already implemented it in the main page. By the way, do you have other references confirming this one. Thank You, Shinkolobwe (talk) 11:13, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Would it not be better to rename the article to Caprigliola bridge or Ponte di Albiano Magra (without collapse), because the article describes the bridge as well as the collapse?--Salino01 (talk) 10:36, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I agree with your suggestion. This question was puzzling me from the beginning. I like Ponte di Albiano Magra because this page already exists on the Deutsch Wikipedia: de:Ponte di Albiano Magra. I did the langage connection yesterday, but it was already modified on Wikidata, except for sharing the common ressources. However, I would like to wait a little bit until we can be sure what is the best name to be used definitely. Cheers, Shinkolobwe (talk) 11:02, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

The width of the bridge is described in the infobox to be 7.2 m. This is the width of the original bridge, but is it also the width of the bridge reconstructed after world war?--Salino01 (talk) 10:36, 12 April 2020 (UTC)
 * I cannot answer to this question, but it is more a minor detail. The actual width of the bridge is about this size when looking to the still intact bridge with GoogleStreet. The true answer is probably not far away from 7 m. Cheers, Shinkolobwe (talk) 11:06, 12 April 2020 (UTC)

Question: Are very ancient photographs (older that 70 years) always free of rights?
Question: Are very ancient photographs (older that 70 years) always free of rights? The original bridge photographs dated at least from 1908 (112 years ago) and the bridge was rebuilt in 1949 (71 years ago). The question is worth to be asked. The rights on the initial photographs are certainly expired, but what about the rights of the person/organisation having scanned/reproduced the initial photographs? If there is no longer copyrights because the work is already in the public domain, then we have plenty of very nice historic photographs to illustrate the page.

I personally think it is very illogical and probably also illegal to claim rights on old photographs simply because one reproduces them. Then, nothing can ever be released in the public domain and all the Italian newspapers are full of illegal copies of old photographs. We also certainly need to follow the common sense. What are the exact guidelines of Wikipedia on this questions? Anyway, when uploading ancien photographs on the Wikimedia Commons, proper credits have to be made to the source of the reproduction. Thank you for your answers, Shinkolobwe (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2020 (UTC)


 * no, old photographs are not always free of rights but some are acceptable. The rules to apply are in c:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Italy. Some photographs may be acceptable under this rule:
 * For anonymous or pseudonymous works, apart from those where the real author is widely known, the duration of economic rights is 70 years from date of first publication, whatever the form in which it was carried out, as long as the author does not become known in this period.[633/1941 art. 27]
 * To use this you would need to establish that the photograph was published more than 70 years ago, such as in a newspaper or a book, simply being an old photograph is insufficient. If in doubt you could ask at c:Commons:Village pump/Copyright.
 * Making a scanned copy of an old photograph does not create a new copyright, although touching up the photograph to remove defects might do so (see c:Commons:When to use the PD-scan tag). Verbcatcher (talk) 11:51, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your search on the question, appreciated, Shinkolobwe (talk) 12:44, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I have added a 1914 postcard of the bridge. Verbcatcher (talk) 15:20, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks :-) Shinkolobwe (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * I also found an Italian web site, https://www.lunigianainsolita.com, where photographs of the bridge are free of right. Maybe, is it the same place where you fetched your ancient postcard of the bridge. There is a dedicated article of 15 August 2014 entitled "The reinforced concrete bridge in Caprigliola" with ancient photographs and also with two more recent photographs of the bridge reconstructed in 1949 and still intact. The texts and photos, written and made by Gianni Giusti (from Massa), are licensed under Attribution – Noncommercial – Share alike CC BY-NC-SA. They can be reproduced freely and free of charge, and their reproduction is encouraged respecting the license terms. The photographs of Gianni Giusti and reproductions of ancient photographs of the Caprigliola bridge are available here: The reinforced concrete bridge in Caprigliola. Shinkolobwe (talk) 20:46, 13 April 2020 (UTC)


 * , the 'NC' part of the CC BY-NC-SA license is unacceptable, see c:Commons:Choosing a license. We can only use the images from this site where is clear that they are sufficiently old to be in the public domain. This does not apply to the recent photographs. See also Creative Commons NonCommercial license and here. Verbcatcher (talk) 21:39, 13 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for this information. I was just looking for the type of licence in the uploading process of a recent photograph. So, I stop. And by the way, in the meantime, by looking on the ancient poscard of the bridge you uploaded today in the Commons, I also just realized that we stumbled upon the same site. Shinkolobwe (talk) 22:15, 13 April 2020 (UTC)

Lemma of article
As mentioned above I would prefer to rename the lemma of the article either to Caprigliola bridge, Albiano bridge or Albiano Magra bridge, because the article describes more the bridge itself as its collapse. Furthermore it would be easier to link this article with the german article Ponte di Albiano Magra and the italien article Ponte di Caprigliola, which is not possible in the current state.--Salino01 (talk) 18:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * the normal term is 'title'. The existing title has the advantage that there are other bridges that might be called by these names, including the nearby Autostrada bridge over the river. Our bridge is notable because of its collapse. However, I do not feel strongly about this and could easily be persuaded. We do not have to follow the titles used in other Wikipedia languages, as each Wikipedia has its own conventions.


 * I have resolved the problem with linking the article to its German and Italian equivalents. The problem was that our article was linked to Wikidata item Q89933562 but the German and Italian articles were linked to Q90008347. Verbcatcher (talk) 19:37, 25 April 2020 (UTC)


 * OK, I suggest to rename the page directly in the Italian language as Ponte di Caprigliola using Caprigliola bridge as a redirect. Simply Albiano bridge is certainly not OK, because there exists another Albiano municipality in the autonomous province of Trentino in north Italy (Comune in Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol). We need to take care to the spelling: the other side of the bridge is Albiano Magra, not Albiona, nor Albiona Magra (-ano in place of -ona). At least it will be directly consistent with the page in the Italian language and with the naming conventions of other bridges in Italy. Shinkolobwe (talk) 21:03, 27 April 2020 (UTC)


 * The guidance on whether the title should be in Italian or in English is at Naming conventions (use English), which says we should follow the name used in English language sources. None of those that I have looked at give a name the bridge, but refer to it by its location. It is also reasonable to aim for consistency with similar articles. I have not made a full survey of Category:Bridges by traffic by country, but some are in English and some in the local language. Category:Road bridges in Italy has some in Italian and some in English. Category:Road bridges in Germany is almost all in English. As there is not an established name in English language sources I think we should use a descriptive name in English. Caprigliola bridge is probably better than Albiano Magra bridge as that might also refer to the Autostrada bridge. Verbcatcher (talk) 22:00, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your search. I also just looked at Category:Bridges in Tuscany, which is also appropriate for this page. There is a mix of "bridge" and "Ponte". However, often "Ponte" seems to refer to a name given to the bridge and we are not aware of such a name. So, it seems me that Caprigliola bridge is a reasonable proposal. Shinkolobwe (talk) 22:38, 27 April 2020 (UTC)