Talk:Captain Logan

Untitled
I want the two other editors to know I really appreciate their contributions to this article. It had a lot of information that I hope we can use. However, none of it was sourced, some of it was off the cuff (the section on children literally said "a boy, I think"), and the sources added did not follow Wikipedia standards. I reverted the article to the last version before the edits, but the information is not deleted, it's just not on this current version of the page. Let's go back to the page history and see if we can source the information that's there, then add it back into the article in a way that conforms to Wikipedia guidelines. I hope we can work together to make a good article. Thanks again. Mingusboodle (talk) 03:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

His name was James
This Shawnee's name was James Logan, and was sometimes known as Captain Logan or Captain James Logan. As far as I know, he was not known by his contemporaries as "Captain Johnny". That was the name of two other Shawnees: one "Captain Johnny" was an important chief named Kekewepelethy, and the other "Captain Johnny" was a Shawnee in the War of 1812 who was associated with Captain James Logan.

I think novelist Allan Eckert, who was sometimes confused about Indian identities, may have unwittingly combined Captain Johnny and Captain Logan, to create the "Captain Johnny Logan" of his books. If I'm correct, then unfortunately that means that the new grave and historical markers have the wrong name on them.

To clarify this situation, we need to cite some better sources than we have here. Historian John Sugden has entries on James Logan and Kekewepelethy in the American National Biography. Does anyone know of any other scholarly works that mention Captain Logan, or that claim that "Captain Logan" was called "Johnny Logan"? —Kevin Myers 01:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Kevin, please contribute your research from American National Biography regarding Kekewepelethy, because I have not found it online. I assume that your research shows that Kekewepelethy is obviously a different person than the scout who died in the War of 1812.  Please teach us all.  I have done my part at raising the scholarly nature of this article and further advancing the James Renick Logan theory as the true identity of Captain Logan.  I find the 1812 letter from Mathews particularly convincing that the Johnny theory has some serious flaws by not mentioning the Renick name at all.  Until this is sorted out, this article needs to present both theories as fairly and objectively as possible.  Someone in Wapakoneta, Ohio believes the Johnny theory strongly enough to chisel it into stone (so we need to leave the Johnny theory there as co-equal until the facts become super-obvious one way or the other.  Conversely, the James theory needs to not be merely buried in the talk page while a factual error continues to be spread on this article's main page. —optikos (talk) 21:35, 1 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your work and interest. Unfortunately the best source, the American National Biography, is not free online. I have copies of the articles in question and will add some citations as time permits.


 * I don't think there's really any "Johnny theory", as you put it, just some confusion stemming from Eckert's novels. There's no doubt that the famous Captain Logan who fought for the Americans in the War of 1812 was Spemica Lawba. He was apparently never called "Johnny" until Eckert's book came out. There was a Shawnee named John Logan, who was killed at the Battle of Brownstown fighting alongside Tecumseh (see Sugden's biography of Tecumseh). And then there was a "Captain Johnny", a companion of James Logan. Presumably, Eckert got those names mixed up, easy to do since John Logan and James Logan, both Shawnees, were both killed in 1812, though fighting on opposite sides of the war. If we just stick to what the reliable sources say, and mention the "Johnny" error in passing, we'll be able to keep the confusion to a minimum.


 * The really interesting debate is whether Captain James Logan was actually James Renick, and whether, as one researcher has suggested, an oft-mentioned Shawnee chief named "Wryneck" was actually Joshua Renick, James's father. According to this theory, "Wryneck" was how translators heard and spelled "Renick". We can't resolve those questions here but we can mention them.


 * To briefly sum up the cast of characters:


 * James Logan, aka Spemica Lawba, killed in 1812 fighting for the Americans, possibly named James Renick, possibly the son of Joshua Renick, a white captive who was possibly chief Wryneck
 * John Logan, a Shawnee killed in 1812 fighting against the Americans
 * Captain Johnny, a Shawnee in the War of 1812, companion of Spemica Lawba
 * Kekewepelethy, aka Captain Johnny, died about 1808, principal Shawnee chief, sometimes known as "King John" to distinguish him from the younger Captain Johnny


 * More at a later date. —Kevin Myers 03:50, 2 February 2010 (UTC) revised & extended —Kevin Myers 14:38, 2 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I agree that there is no valid "Johnny theory". The current "two theories" nature of the article is intended to be a very short-term interim partial solution.  During this interim period of overhauling this article, I think that it is best to treat both forks in the road as fairly and objectively as possible, while putting a foot down to no longer perpetuate the apparent Johnny Logan misconception, so that no more wrong names are chiseled into stone based on a flawed Wikipedia article taken as the gospel truth.  Not that that is the precise sequence of events in Wapakoneta, but it could happen elsewhere.  Sometime soon one of these two theories will be nearly removed from the article.  As you suggest silimarly above, the losing theory will remain only as a warning down further in the article that there exists a popular misconception regarding name & mistaken identity, as well as different Romanization schemes for the Shawnee language that lead to differences in spelling in English of his indian name. —optikos (talk) 03:58, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * The John Logan who died with Tecumseh might be the older brother of James Logan that is mentioned in the article. 'Tis worth exploring corroborating evidence to see if these two John Logans converge into one person.—optikos (talk) 04:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * I thought of that intriguing possibility too, although Sugden says that James and John Logan were not related. —Kevin Myers 06:18, 3 February 2010 (UTC)


 * By the way, I have since noticed a couple of older references, nothing reliable enough to cite, that call Spemica Lawba "John Logan", so the confusion predates Eckert's novels. One writer from 1995 decided to cover all the bases and call him "Captain James John Logan"! —Kevin Myers 15:19, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

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Phony picture
Someone uploaded a supposed picture of Captain Logan from the 1905 History of Western Ohio and Auglaize County, which was a nice find. Alas, they were trying to pull a fast one back in 1905. They just altered a fairly recent photo of Cheyenne Chief Wolf Robe and pretended it was Captain Logan. I thought the image looked suspicious -- at first I thought it might be Red Cloud. Only took a minute of Googling to find out who it really was. Kevin1776 (talk) 11:50, 31 January 2021 (UTC)