Talk:Card manipulation

Definition?
How about sourcing the FISM definition of manipulation: "Manipulation: A magic stage act wholly or largely based on sleight of hand." ( http://www.fism.org/ContestRule-English.htm ) So Card Manipulation would be a card magic on stage based wholly or largely on sleight of hand. It's not perfect, but comes IMO closer than things based on listing "things which are manipulation" -- and you can still clarify with examples if you want to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.181.229.41 (talk) 08:11, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Two Sections?
Why there are two sections, "Notable practicioners of card magic" and "Card Magicians, Cardicians and Card Gamblers"? What are the criteria to put a card magician into one or the other? Seems like a bit arbitrary to me. --Lektu 15:48, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Great call Lektu, we also need to make a clear definition of "manipulation" and "trick" and "magic", etc. There may be a need to break this into multiple sections. For example, there are "card tricks" which require no sleight of hand what-so-ever and are self working mathematical effects. And there are absolutely wild manipulation routines a-la Channing Pollock and Cardini (even do a youtube search for "FISM manipulation"). --Protocoldroid (talk) 19:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Card Magic Redirect?
Why does 'card magic' redirect here, when the opening paragraph says that card manipulation is not to be confused with card magic? It's silly, espicially as the magic links below link to card magic. 58.169.32.38 11:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
 * It now redirects to Magic (illusion), as there is currently no article on "Card magic" per se. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.154.65.1 (talk) 19:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Notable card manipulators?
Do you want this topic to be accurate? STOP adding yourself to the list, and be *objective*. *Don't* delete somebody from the list simply on the grounds that you do not like the person.

Agreed. Guys, these notable manipulators need to be sourced. I don't want to be a "bad guy" and delete Brad Boulton, but... There needs to be a reason he appears, not just because he's a wikipedia editor. This isn't the first person to promote themselves with a photo of themselves flourishing, and I think that what we really need... Is an illustration. It might be the most objective way to well, "illustrate a point". Also, IIRC that photo is of a sybil variation, and... Instead of just quoting "Sybil", the maneuver should be credited to Chris Kenner (the explanation of Sybil comes from "Totally Out of Control" 1992, by Chris Kenner). Also, that book includes a trick using Sybil, bridging the worlds of flourishing (cardistry) and card magic. Sybil also is documented by Brian Tudor (in his three "Show Off" videos, starting in 1999) and also referred to as "crazy cuts" by Rich Ferguson on his DVD called "Flourishes". --Protocoldroid (talk) 19:40, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed Dan Wheeler, he seems to be a baseball player, a quick google test comes up with nothing on card manipulation or magic. nigell k (talk) 13:34, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Hello, I am adding John Scarne. Hope that is ok--Nyctc7 (talk) 03:54, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Stubness
Is there a template for Magic-category stub? I doubt it, but this article definately qualifies. The history of card tricks is a core part of the history of magic, and probably the most documented. But the only reference to this rich tapestry is brief mention of Erdnase and Bertram? The article on Bertram doesn't mention cards or magic, btw. (And I can't believe patter is a red-link!) Sigh... Eaglizard 14:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
 * i couldn't agree more. let's work on this together - i have made a start. Grroin 23:57, 22 November 2005 (UTC)


 * I concure this article is in need of a major overhaul. 213.121.151.142 12:07, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Page move
Is everybody okay with the page move from card magic to Card manipulation. I just got the privilege of "moving" and I don't want to abuse it. Elabro 16:40, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

no way guy. Ed Marlo and Lennart Green are called card magicians by other magicians. manio;ation f careds is different - bakc front palming and flourishes are involved and it is stage magic hwereas ed and lennart are closue up peopel. only a ffew people cross over. Tiksustoo 01:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

The introductory definition says that card manipulation is not to be confused with card magic. Card Magic redirects to the Card Manipulation page. Duh? ~ 11th Sept 2006

Maxwell
Is the person in the picture a notable magician? If not, the name should be removed, as non-notable. --Janke | Talk 09:08, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

XCM probably shouldn't redirect here
At the beginning of the article, it announces that it's something that "creates the illusion of magic". Most magicians will tell you that while XCM is neat, it isn't magic - and so will any spectator. The response a magician strives for is for the spectator to believe for a split second that it might not have been a trick; a flourisher (or Extreme Card Manipulator) wants you to see how cool they are at performing.

Card magic or card manipulations?
It seems to me that this article is all over the place. Firstly "Card Magic" should have its own article, as it is clearly seperate from card manipulation (in the sense of flourishes)

This article should be more about the history of card magic not just a collection of vague references such as "in the last century or so". It should be an article charting the rise of card magic from its historical roots up to the present day. Some key individuals should be mentioned but a list of notable handlers should reside in the "List of magicians" article. 213.121.151.142 12:06, 25 March 2006 (UTC) and Kingofspades 00:19, 26 March 2006 (UTC)


 * the article really is all over the place. Reading like a mature Wikipedian who's also a devoted magician.....it's all over the place.Buddpaul (talk) 22:46, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Examples of card magic
I wondered about putting in references to where interested readers can see how to practice some of the basic tricks, such as the glide, double lift and palming cards. There are sites on the web such as this www.card-trick.com/sleights/glide.htm Card tricks, the Glide, should we compile a list for the articles or would it actually be better to have separate pages for each card trick. Collieman 16:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The content in that link is something that should be encyclopedically included in the article here. I don't think separate aricles or needed or a good idea at this point.  This is a short article, almost a stub even, so a few subsections about a few tricks would fit fine here. 2005 20:30, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Card manipulation isant just magic
Card manipulation isant just magic, its any form of Card manipulation so why have you just covered magic, what about pro card dealers and xcmers and just people that know how to shufful cards but carnt do a magic trick —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.47.202.108 (talk • contribs).
 * That may be so (in which case XCM should be defined). It doesn't seem a valid reason to remove card magic practitioners from the article though. -- zzuuzz (talk) 11:09, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Likely... largely undocumented... surmise...

 * Card magic, in one form or another, likely dates from the time playing cards became commonly known — towards the second half of the fourteenth century — but its history in this period is largely undocumented. One may surmise from the practice of how other everyday objects have been pressed into the service of conjurers across cultures and the ages that card magic developed spontaneously and roughly concurrently in different parts of the world, if not always synchronously. However, compared to sleight of hand magic in general and to cups and balls, it is a relatively new form of magic.

I'm moving this here. Too much speculation and guesswork.

If the relevant history is "undocumented," then nobody is ever going to be able to cite a source. Therefore this paragraph can never meet the verifiability policy. Therefore, it is not suitable content for Wikipedia.

Of course it can and should be restored if someone does find a source. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Card Magic Needs its own article
Card Magic and Card Manipulation need their own articles. Card manipulation in many cases has no magic/illusion in it at all, its about style and flow.......

--Bradboulton (talk) 22:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree. They are two totally different aspects of Card "Magic". But there is a third, too. It seems that Card Manipulation and Card Flourish are being confused. With Card Manipulation, I would disagree. There is magic/illusion to it, just look a Jeff McBride. Perhaps you're confusing manipulation with flourish.

--N8pilot16 (talk) 15:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that "Card manipulation" is not really the right word here,. From the laity's standpoint, "Card magic" is probably what should be seen in an encyclopedic context. I agree, "Flourishing" is being referred to as "card manipulation" by Brad, and "card magic" getting mixed up into the mess. N8pilot16, great example on Jeff McBride, that's a manipulation act no doubt about it. I'm having trouble finding further sources (help requested!) on defining "manipulation". I thought the rules from FISM might help but they didn't.

Possibly the confusion of "card manipulation" and "flourishing" being mixed up comes from the tradition of the likes of Cardini and Channing Pollock and their long-time following in manipulation acts. These magicians would use fanning to help visualize the fact that they're holding more than one card, and show a visual where they held the entire deck fanned out, dropped it into an empty hat, and then "magically produce" a new deck, fan it (to show there's more than one card), ditch it, produce it. A type of repetition, not unlike what one may use in an ACR (ambitious card routine) to strengthen the effect. And food for thought, think about this one:

Cardini, manipulation, stage: fan, vanish, produce, repeat Dai Vernon, close-up: bury card, reveal card, repeat

(Some may consider Cardini a close-up magician, and I won't battle it. I'm just trying to start a discussion which helps us come to a definition)

--Protocoldroid (talk) 12:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Illustration In Progress
I will be crafting an illustration for the article. The goal is to provide a visual which is interesting, and informative. I am planning on Illustrating three frames of "Sybil," the card flourish by Chris Kenner. I will reference the maneuvers as practiced by other magicians/manipulators, and use my own hands and tools to reference visually. My formal education is in the visual arts, and I will be releasing the artwork into the public domain so that it can be used here on WP.

Anyone in favor, or against this proposed edit, please speak now before I get to work! Thank you guys

--Protocoldroid (talk) 15:23, 22 April 2008 (UTC)


 * Still working on it! And also after some thinking... I decided I'm going to move Brad's photo to the card flourish article. I'm going to re-caption it as well. Personally, I call most variations of "sybil", "Sybil". However, according to Totally Out Of Control "Sybil" has four packets. It's also a production for coin magic, believe it or not. It looks closer to "Five Faces of Sybil" including the "Bob" figure, which appears to be a 5 packet display.


 * Interestingly Kenner titles the illustrations by different names, so instead of writing "In figure B." he writes "In Figure {persons name}", as the maneuver is a reference to the character in Sybil (book) a famous case of Dissociative identity disorder, known to the 'layman' (of medicine, haha) as multiple personality disorder.


 * --Protocoldroid (talk) 13:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Card sleights
Presently The Pass redirects to Sleight of hand, where I did put a brief description of the move (and the Side Steal) - that paragraph was deleted as being in the wrong place. Should Card manipulation contain a brief description of the major card sleights? I'm reluctant to create a new wiki for it, but I see that there's some debate here as to what the terms magic and manipulation mean, and I would like some guidance as to whether slieght descriptions would be welcome. Obviously it wouldn't ne a how to guide, just a description of effect and the basics of the method. TrulyBlue (talk) 09:50, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Card Magic Needs its own article Card Magic and Card Manipulation need their own articles. Card manipulation in many cases has no magic/illusion in it at all, its about style and flow.......

--Bradboulton (talk) 22:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree. They are two totally different aspects of Card "Magic". But there is a third, too. It seems that Card Manipulation and Card Flourish are being confused. With Card Manipulation, I would disagree. There is magic/illusion to it, just look a Jeff McBride. Perhaps you're confusing manipulation with flourish.

--N8pilot16 (talk) 15:17, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Card magic needs its own section
As discussed and mention by others above, Card Magic needs its own section. Card Manipulation mostly is not magic. Extreme Card Manipulation (XCM) is now the most used form of Card Manipulation. Card manipulation means many things such as card throwing, and card shuffling. Card magic deserves a section only for it. XCM and other forms of card manipulation deserve its own section also.

Drlmagicman (talk) 17:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Current (Dingle) example
Doesn't really seem to explain what the "trick" actually is. Huw Powell (talk) 22:56, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

False counts
It seems that False Count is included in False Dealing. Is there reason to separate it out, as its own section? Gah4 (talk) 15:37, 18 January 2017 (UTC)
 * It is better if its integrated with false dealing using available and verifiable resources than being hostile like this. Every edits with content are made from sources of information. If it could be helped, it should be done so than posting vacuous generic templates that lacks likability and shows signs of uncooperative behavior.