Talk:Card marking

Untitled
This article should probably be merged with Marked playing cards --Toms2866 19:49, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I merged and redirected the new thing with this much older one. 2005 20:31, 2 May 2006 (UTC)

I am new to Wikipedia....but, the correct key words should be "marked cards" vs. "card marking". Most people say "marked cards" as a phrase. I do not know how to link to the "marked cards" page ???? This should also, somehow be linked to "cheating at poker". Thoughts ?


 * There should only be a single article about card marking/marked cards. If a user searches for "marked playing cards" they are redirected to this article. The other articles about cheating use verb-oriented titles: Cheating at poker, Bottom dealing and Second dealing), so I think "Card marking" as the article title is more consistent than "Marked playing cards". Cheating at poker is in the See also section.--Toms2866 19:23, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

While I bow down to your expertize, but all sorts of cards may be marked (ie. like Post cards, baseball cards, etc.). That is why I think that "marked playing cards" is more accurate.....but, like I said, you know a lot more about Wikipedia than I do...so I conceed :-) ... thanks for helping !

July 21, 2006 (1:42 PM EST) - I have specialized in magic, gambling, sleight of hand, etc. for over 40 years and was the person who gave this "card marking" page a major update in the May 2006 timeframe. About a month or 2 ago someone made changes which were technically accurate, so I not only left them .... but, I elaborated on them. A couple of days ago, I noticed that someone removed pertinent information which deminished value for Wikipedia readers. I fixed the text and hope the Wikipedia editors prevent such changes without the review of someone who is an expert in the area. Should Wikipedia like me assist in such efforts, please feel free to contact me. As I stated above, I am an expert in magic, sleight of hand, gambling, etc.

August 17, 2006 (1:43 PM EST) - Thank you so much for locking this page because that person keeps on making changes and I am tired of fixing his updates.

Card Marking - technical accuracy
July 21, 2006 (1:42 PM EST) - I have specialized in magic, gambling, sleight of hand, etc. for over 40 years and was the person who gave this "card marking" page a major update in the May 2006 timeframe. About a month or 2 ago someone made changes which were technically accurate, so I not only left them .... but, I elaborated on them. A couple of days ago, I noticed that someone removed pertinent information which deminished value for Wikipedia readers. I fixed the text and hope the Wikipedia editors prevent such changes without the review of someone who is an expert in the area. Should Wikipedia like me assist in such efforts, please feel free to contact me. As I stated above, I am an expert in magic, sleight of hand, gambling, etc.

July 23rd, 2006 (10:51 PM EST) - I checked and someone removed the same text which makes the discussion on Marked cards incompete and potentially misleading. This is the second complaint which I am recording.

July 25th, 2006 (2:00 PM EST) - This is the 3rd time someone removed the valuable information from the Wikipedia page....I fixed it again, to provide Wikipedia users with the most accureate and comprehensive information summary.

August 17, 2006 (1:43 PM EST) - Thank you so much for locking this page because that person keeps on making changes and I am tired of fixing his updates.

March 27, 2007 - I noticed this article was flagged by somebody.

"This article or section does not adequately cite its references or sources.Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. (help, get involved!)This article has been tagged since February 2007."

I am not a Wikipedia expert, but I am an expert in magic, marked cards and gambling techniques (gaffs and sleight of hand). So after reviewing this article, I have not found any errors or any debateable issues. If someone has a point of contention, I will be happy to discuss the issue.

April 11, 2007 - I added a "References" section for those people who may be interested. But, there many books which deal with magic and gambling technqiues...so, I just listed a few to address those people who question this topic's credibility and accuracy.

January 22, 2009 - Someone added a link to a web site showing how to mark cards....However, he originally called it Juice...It is not. So, I moved his link to the section on "block-out" work because that is what he was really demonstrating on his web site (http://homepages.nyu.edu/~vb587/). (and "no" that is not my photo... I'm much older :-) )

Chemistry
All these mentions of "juice" and special marking chemicals are useless without citing what they consist of. As it stands, their mention just adds artificial mystique with talk of special skills and magic dusts and potions. Someone must be able to cite something useful. Alvis 06:50, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Discussing methods or secrets for any magic gimmick or trick is against the magicians code. Discussing secrets would be equivalent to disclosing "intellectual property", much like discussing the formula to "Coka Cola". So, even though people may want to know or understand the "trade secrets", they should not be discussed in public. (April 11, 2007)

Nah. While a "magician's code" may apply between magicians, it shouldn't apply to a general encyclopedia article.

I'll guess one reason there's so little info around is that most pro cheats prefer to make their own mixtures cause it's cheaper, and in most cases they're really not that complex. "Daub" is just any convenient substance that'll make a smudge on the cards, like shoe polish or simply dirt from under the sole. Most "juice" is probably ink from a pen heavily diluted in alcohol in order to make large but faint patterns on the card backs.

The "secret" to marking cards is to make the marks as faint as absolutly possible and practicing at spotting ever-fainter marks. You don't need to spot the marked cards 100% correctly to get an edge, and you'll probably play more convincing if you don't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.65.249 (talk) 23:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Expertmagician and marked-cards.com
Am I the only one who is beginning to suspect that Expertmagician may have some financial interest in marked-cards.com? He seems awfully persistent at putting the link back, even though several of us keep removing it, and even though the site is not about "how to mark cards" but a place to buy marked cards and card marking ink. It doesn't even contain any instructions on how to make ink. Kleg 16:54, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Funny you should say that, there is a video clip exposing a luminous card actually being marked. There are also video clips exposing what juiced cards look like. Unfortunately, magic and gambling secrets do not come easily in life. All you need to do is about 5 minutes of research a day for 40 years and you too can be an expert or you can buy the expertize from various sources to gain knowledge quickly, which is what I did 30-40 years ago. However, if you read the text in this Wikipedia entry, you will only find facts. If anyone finds any misinformation published, please let me know. Every word was chosen carefully to inform, while not exposing the secrets to curiosity seekers. While you will find sales information on marked-cards.com AND the cardshark web sites, there are also tons of useful facts that can not be found anywhere else in print. Where else but on marked-cards.com can you find information on pros and cons of various types of marked card technology as well as how to detect a marked deck, actual video clips of marked cards, etc. etc. -- Let's face it, "learning how to mark a deck" is simply a function of having the correct chemicals and knowing deceptive marking patterns. Real formulas to make juice and luminous solutions cost several thousand dollars, so what makes you think that they will be published on the net. If you spent money for a secret or years doing research, would you simply publish it? Those who go through to effort to learn reep the rewards and do not expose secrets.....Yes, I do know several formulas for luminous and juice (some much more deceptive than others), but, I would never publish them due to my sworn oath in several professional magical societies and an unwritten secrecy among magicians and, ironically, gamblers. (Expertmagician July 25, 2007)


 * Hmm... there's a funny paradox here. If you reveal your secrets, they'll surely be against WP:OR! --Neigel von Teighen 13:27, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Note: I never claimed that all these secrets were "original". But, I did say that I personally spent tens of thousands of dollars for secrets and have spent countless hours with other experts in the field learning sleight of hand and becoming educated about gimmicks which may be used for magic ... and have also been used by gamblers. Unfortunately, much of magic is a "dual use" technology which may be used for good and bad. If you are interesting in learning...why not start by reading the books "Scarne's Complete Guide to Gambling" and/or a book called "Secrets of the Card Sharps", while they are not "how to books", they do provide insite into various gimmicks and techniques of gamblers which are also used by magicians. If you like, you can treat them as a "source" to verify many of my statements.(Expertmagician July 25, 2007)

I'm not arguing with the factuality of any statements that you may have put into the main article. I'm not sure which ones are yours anyways. The problem is that marked-cards.com is not primarily an instructional site, it is primarily a site for selling things, and that is a violation of External links. You seem to be aware that the site is inappropriate for an external link, since you misrepresent it by calling the link "how to mark cards". Furthermore, adding links to your own site constitutes advertising and a conflict of interest, as per External_links. Please stop adding the link back. Kleg 18:47, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully, I changed the link text to me more to your liking. If you find a web site with more factual information about marked cards, may I suggest that you add it for Wikipedia users reference. I have been looking and was unable to find any. It is also very difficult to find good books on the subject either due to the secretive nature of marked cards and the little literature there is tend to be outdated. This Wikipedia entry now contains information regarding old and new (state of the art) card marking technology. I hope the Wikipedia users appreciate the information as posted.

By the way, you will notice that I was invited to be an expert speaker at this years http://www.worldgameprotection.com/speakers.html I will be lecturing to over 400 casino executives and surveillance officers about marked card technology. Hopefully, this fact will futher enhance my credability to provide valuable information about marked cards to Wikipedia users. (Expertmagician Jan. 19, 2008)