Talk:Caribou

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Caribou (North America)
Caribou refers to any of several North American subspecies of the Rangifer tarandus. The species Rangifer tarandus, known as reindeer in Europe and Eurasia, is a medium size ungulate of the Cervidae family which also includes wapiti, moose and deer. To avoid confusion among terms, this article describes North American "subspecies, ecotypes, populations, and herds." While acknowledging that caribou and reindeer are both Rangifer tarandus this article contains content on North American specific subspecies and ecotypes, their descriptions, naming and etymology, evolution, Biology and behaviour (Physical characteristics), their diet, reproduction and life-cycle, Social structure, migration and range and predators, Ecology (Distribution and habitat) in the North American context. This article also contains content on specific herds and populations in the United States and Canada and on Conservation status, Relationship with humans, First Nations and Inuit oral histories, In mythology and art and as a Canadian icon. This article was created on 20 January 2014. Oceanflynn (talk) 21:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Looking for caribou but finding only reindeer
Prior to the creation of this article Caribou (North America) on 20 January 2014, a word search on Google or Wikipedia for "caribou" redirected to the Reindeer by default. There were already numerous articles within Wikipedia with the wikilink caribou that inappropriately redirected to reindeer. This was problematic as the lede in the article on reindeer even as late as December 2013 did not reflect the gravity, scope and scholarship of the current literature on caribou. Selected bibliography on caribouOceanflynn (talk) 21:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Since caribou is a subspecies of Rangifer tarandus, the redirects are quite proper. 212.181.175.199 (talk) 15:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)

Search engine results
BBC technology specialist Bill Thompson was quoted in the article Reliability of Wikipedia in regards to wrote about search engine results, "Just because something comes up in the top 10 on MSN Search or Google does not automatically give it credibility or vouch for its accuracy or importance" and that "most popular online sources are inherently unreliable." In other words even if a vast majority of search engine results lead to the term "reindeer" instead of "caribou" does not make a strong argument for not having a wikipedia article called "Caribou."

Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources
According to the Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, Wikipedia "[a]rticles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we publish the opinions only of reliable authors..." Original research such as the claim by an individual editor of "in my experience"... without any references referring to statistics from reliable resources, is not considered to be a valid wikipedia knowledge claim. See below: User:Beeblebrox:"In my experience, if you see them in the wild they are referred to as caribou, while captive or domesticated ones are in fact referred to as reindeer."

History of the Reindeer/Caribou article
The article first entitled Caribou in 2002 and now called Reindeer has always been fraught with contentious issues. In order to enhance my understanding of the challenges facing editors, I examined the history of the article year by year as it evolved. Given the importance of the reindeer in fiction, it is not surprising that it attracts so much attention. It was only in 2012 that more serious bibliographic references began to appear. But there were still far too few inline citations. It was very easy to over-generalize an entire species. Once the subspecies of North American caribou, the Porcupine caribou became the face of the generalized animal called reindeer through Dean Biggins' oft-cited photo, it became difficult for readers to distinguish subspecies. In fact the entire section on subspecies remained largely inaccurate and unreferenced in 2013.

According to the history page of the article Reindeer, it was first created with the title Caribou by User:PierreAbbat on 4 November 2002. The article consisted of one sentence: "The caribou is an Arctic-dwelling deer (Rangifer tarandus), otherwise known as reindeer. Economically important herds in the north of the Old World have become less important in the minds of Americanised children world-wide than the imagined reindeer team of Santa Claus." User:PierreAbbat also created the taxonomy box on 4 November 2002. There were no references.

In 22 September 2003 User:SaveThePoint reworded the lede by shifting the order of the words reindeer and caribou to "The reindeer is an Arctic-dwelling deer (Rangifer tarandus), otherwise known as caribou. Economically important herds in the north of the Old World have become less important in the minds of Americanised children world-wide than the imagined reindeer team of Santa Claus." By September 2003 there were still no references. User:SaveThePoint inserted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caribou#mediaviewer/File:Caribou.jpg using with file name "Caribou.jpg" into the article that was presumably renamed Reindeer at that time. This amazing photo was taken by Dean Biggins, an employee of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service employee in Alaska, is in the public domain. According to Wikimedia it has been used 100 times. It is a mature male Porcupine caribou R. t. granti from Alaska although it has been used without proper captioning in many places and without respect to geography.

Throughout 2004 the article entitled Reindeer had no references, the template box broken code was the lede and this sentence appeared. "Domesticated deer are mostly found in Northern Scandinavia and Russia, and wild deer are mostly found in North America, Greenland and Iceland. Its natural occurrence is approximately bounded within the 62° longitude." Note deer not reindeer or caribou.

By the end of 2005, the lede looked like this. The broken code remained visible for months: "Template:Taxobox begin Template:Taxobox image Template:Taxobox begin placement Template:Taxobox regnum entry Template:Taxobox phylum entry Template:Taxobox classis entryTemplate:Taxobox ordo entry Template:Taxobox familia entry Template:Taxobox genus entry C.H. Smith, 1827 Template:Taxobox species entry Template:Taxobox end placement Template:Taxobox section binomial parens Template:Taxobox end The reindeer, known as caribou in North America, is an Arctic and Subarctic-dwelling deer (Rangifer tarandus). See also: Caribou (musician)."

In 2005 there was one reference, Reindeer Roundup! A K-12 Educator's Guide to Reindeer in Alaska. 2004. Carrie Bucki with Greg Finstad and Tammy A. Smith. Reindeer Research Program, University of Alaska Fairbanks. and some external links: Finnish Reindeer Herders` Association - ReindeerNET, Rangifer.net, Reindeer, Reindeer Facts - Northern Nature Project, Villreinrådet i Norge/ Norwegian wild reindeer advisory board villrein.no. None of these referred to Caribou (North America).

By the end of December 2006 it was noted that "Caribou redirects here. For other uses, see Caribou (disambiguation)." The lede read "The reindeer, known as caribou when wild in North America, is an Arctic and Subarctic-dwelling deer (Rangifer tarandus)." There was no inline citation. However one more reference had been added: Deer Specialist Group (1996). Rangifer tarandus. 2006. IUCN Red List of Threatened Species. IUCN 2006. And several more external links were added. Only one referred to North America. Under the section Anatomy for example we have the blanket statement with no reference that, "The weight of a female varies between 60 and 170 kg. In some subspecies of reindeer, the male is slightly larger; in others, the male can weigh up to 300 kg."

External links by the end of December 2006:
 * Reindeers.info - Loads of Articles/Information about Reindeers
 * Finnish Reindeer Herders` Association - ReindeerNET
 * Rangifer.net
 * Wild reindeer areas in Norway
 * Reindeer Studies in South Georgia and Norway
 * Wild reindeers areas in norway
 * Frequently Asked Questions about Caribou (at the official site of Arctic National Wildlife Refuge)

On 31 December 2007 User:BigRockFan created a redirect to Caribou (disambiguation). (A disambiguation page lists articles associated with the same title.) On 9 January 2008 User:Neelix Undid revision 181088473 by BigRockFan (talk) arguing that "This [reindeer] is the most common usage. Many pages link to "caribou" meaning reindeer." No reference was given.

By 15 February 2008 the Caribou disambiguation offered two choices: "Caribou may refer to: Caribou (musician), a Canadian rock musician or Reindeer, known as caribou when wild in North America." In 10 March 2008 User:CambridgeBayWeather argued that "There are about 300 incoming links to here. Most appear to be about reindeer. Restore redirect."

By the end of 2009 the lede read "The reindeer (Rangifer tarandus), also known as the caribou when wild in North America, is an Arctic and Subarctic-dwelling deer, widespread and numerous across the Arctic and Subarctic." There was still no inline citation. By then there were more references and external links. But the article was subject to constant vandalism and deletions. Content on caribou in North America but it has improved as did the references to caribou (North America).

By the end of 2012 a Caribou-specific links (North America) had been added but the Caribou (North America) was lost in reindeer discourse. The article had to be protected because of alleged persistent vandalism. There were numerous reverts.

By the end of 2013 the protection level of the article Reindeer was changed again because of persistent vandalism to only allow autoconfirmed users. There was a move to block all non-admin users. There was little that would inform a reader who had followed a wikilink from an article on Nunavut, Inuit, etc referring to Caribou (North America) but that was the dead end. There were very few references or inline citations on Caribou (North America).

This was the lede to the reindeer article at the end of December 2013: "The reindeer (Rangifer tarandus), also known as the caribou in North America, is a species of deer native to Arctic and Subarctic regions. This includes both resident and migratory populations. While overall widespread and numerous, some of its subspecies are rare and at least one has already gone extinct. Reindeer vary considerably in color and size. Both sexes grow antlers, though in a few populations females lack antlers completely. Antlers are typically larger in males. Hunting of wild reindeer and herding of semi-domesticated reindeer (for meat, hides, antlers, milk and transportation) are important to several Arctic and Subarctic peoples. The reindeer is well known in folklore due to Santa Claus's sleigh being pulled by flying reindeer, a popular element of Christmas. In Lapland, reindeer pull pulks.""

On 1 January 2014, I added more content on caribou in North America to the existing reindeer article. By May there was an alert at the top of the Reindeer article that "The examples and perspective in this article deal primarily with North America and do not represent a worldwide view of the subject. Please improve this article and discuss the issue on the talk page. (May 2014)."

Motivated by this comment, I created a separate article which was accepted as Caribou (North America) on January 2014. I incorporated some of the content from my article Boreal woodland caribou, that I had created 20 December 2013, some content I had added to Migratory woodland caribou. Boreal woodland caribou was reviewed by wikipedia administrator December 2013 and no changes were made. Over the next weeks and months I gradually removed what could be considered North American-centric content that I had researched and written from the Reindeer article and put it in the new Caribou (North America) article. At some point the article name was changed by another editor to simply Caribou.Oceanflynn (talk) 21:16, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

The quality and quantity of articles on caribou is increasing as conservation efforts increase. New technologies combined with indigenous traditional knowledge contribute to this research. Research on caribou in North America is often collaborative and includes industry, governments, NGOs, civil society groups, educators and many others in the local areas with caribou populations. The article on reindeer cannot keep up to date on all the changes taking place globally for the entire Rangifer tarandus species, and it is crucial to keep the information on populations as current as possible. This is a living species and care should be taken to select the most current and valid research and the most geographically specific research. There is currently a proposal to merge the articles caribou and reindeer. I urge you to look over the number and quality of references and to carefully examining the subject before voting to merge. Oceanflynn (talk) 05:22, 21 January 2014 (UTC)


 * That's a nice examination of the history of that article. It shows how stub articles, especially in the early days of Wikipedia, often suffered from great inadequacies and neglect. What counts now is to move forward. The condition of the reindeer article in 20 January 2014, when you started this caribou article, is what's relevant. It was obviously the main article and could always be improved with more content about caribou. It already used the word caribou several times, but it did need improvement in that area. You really should have sought to improve it. If your efforts had been blocked, then you should have discussed creating a new article. Instead we have two articles about the same animal, with a few subarticles. The subarticles are okay, but we should only have one main article about rangifer tarandus. The terminology is not subspecies specific, but more one of language and region. Anyone from Eurasia who saw a Canadian or Alaskan caribou would just call it a reindeer. To them they are the same animal, regardless of subspecies. A Canadian who went to Greenland, Norway, or Lapland and saw wild reindeer would likely refer to them as caribou, regardless of subspecies. Same difference. -- Brangifer (talk) 22:09, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Differences between two articles: caribou and reindeer

 * Lede content and inline citations are completely different from the lede on reindeer
 * If you click on the photo of the Male Porcupine caribou R. t. granti in Alaska you will reach Wikimedia with Dean Biggins of the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service as photographer. The file is simply called caribou.
 * Naming and etymology is about North American naming in indigenous languages
 * Taxonomy and evolution has several sentences regarding taxonomy which I wrote for the reindeer article that could be rephrased so it is not as similar. In-line citations in this section are all related to the North American context.
 * Evolution begins with the phrase "The caribou evolved in North America and spread to Eurasia where they are known as reindeer." from Bergerud who also wrote the section on caribou in The Canadian Encyclopedia.
 * Subspecies is largely duplicated from the article on reindeer. I spent a lot of time editing this section in the article reindeer, which involved a lot of reading of experts such as Banfield, Grubb, etc all with inline citations. Some of the subspecies exist only in North America. In creating a separate article Caribou (North America) I was not certain whether I should include all the subspecies or only include the North American subspecies. In the end I decided to keep both with their in-line citations. Perhaps this section should only be in one of the articles, not both.
 * Biology and behaviour In this section I did a lot of research to find North American inline citations for example using Reid (2006), etc but there is still some duplication from the article on reindeer that could eventually be eliminated and replaced with North American content.
 * Ecology is completely about the North American caribou with inline citations.
 * Rangifer tarandus by country is only about Canada and the United States with inline citations. Specific herds are discussed individually with statistics and in some cases linked to articles about them.
 * Conservation status is also limited to conservation in North America with inline citations.
 * Relationship with humans no duplication with article on reindeer.
 * First Nations and Inuit oral histories no duplication with article on reindeer
 * Canadian icon no duplication with article on reindeer Oceanflynn (talk) 5 September 2014

Shortened Footnotes citation template
The reference system allows using shortened footnotes, will eventually have all references in alphabetical order. These footnotes allow the user to add in-line citations with page numbers and keeps the article text easier to read while editing. A great deal of effort had been made to include exact references that refer to specific herds, populations and subspecies and to avoid over-generalizing a complex topic. Effort has gone into finding the most robust references for the North American context.

However, any user can add the simplest of references a nd it will still work.

Dates are day/month/year.

Bibliography: caribou
This is a Selected bibliography of articles about caribou Oceanflynn (talk) 02:25, September 6, 2014 (UTC)

One animal, two articles?
So why have two articles on the same species? Kortoso (talk) 17:53, 26 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I have to admit I share this concern. There are not actually two different animals, jiust one animal with two different names. And I don't even believe it is accurate to say that all North Americans always call them caribou. In my experience, if you see them in the wild they are referred to as caribou, while captive or domesticated ones are in fact referred to as reindeer. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:47, 26 June 2014 (UTC)


 * They are the same animal and there should only be one article. Why this much newer (Jan. 21, 2014 vs. Reindeer from 2004) caribou article was even created, with large copying from Reindeer (and still survived), is a mystery to me. It's basically a one-man project, and not a collaborative project. The consensus has always been (and admins always strictly enforced it), that a redirect exist pointing to Reindeer. Regardless of final title, there should only be one article. A merge needs to happen, and since the Reindeer article is the oldest and primary article, the merge should be into that one. The title can always be discussed. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Caribou more than wild reindeer
In Eurasia there is a distinction between reindeer and wild reindeer. A paper "The status of wild reindeer in the USSR, especially the Kola Peninsula" presented at the Proceedings of the first international reindeer and caribou symposium in 1975 noted that "As a consequence of wild reindeer population growth in Taimer the scope of their seasonal migrations enlarged, running up to 1000 km each way. In the course of these migrations, wild reindeer invade and degrade the winter range of domesticated reindeer." Oceanflynn (talk) 04:20, September 1, 2014 (UTC)

Merge reindeer
This situation is not optimal. We now have two articles about the same animal, based on the false premise that in North America they are always called caribou, while elsewhere they are always called reindeer. Even if that were true I still do not find it a compelling reason to have two articles on the same animal. Should we now have separate articles for "elevator" and "lift"? For "lorry" and "truck"? For "loo" "WC" "bathroom" "restroom" etc? I think not. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:24, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Behold, from Alaska, where the wild animal is called a caribou and farmed or ranched is called a reindeer:    Beeblebrox (talk) 18:26, 27 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Not very strong references. An article about a hot dog stand in downtown Anchorage, Alaska that serves reindeer dogs in the Miami Herald; a second article entitled "Hot Dog of the Week: Reindeer Hot Dog" from a blog called "Serious Eats" arguing that clients should not feel bad about eating reindeer hotdog because the "caribou actually look less like Rudolph and more like cows with antlers." The third reference American Pride Foods is an online meat and poultry service that sell reindeer dogs with a "mild but wild Alaskan flavor." The article was not created on a false premise that in North America the subspecies and ecotypes of Rangifer tarandus,  are always called caribou, but because most of the research and publications in North America regarding caribou use that nomenclature. There are conferences and academic publications which use the phrase "reindeer and caribou." Elevators are not different from lifts but caribou in North America (the only place they exist) are different from reindeer in Eurasia. The former are endangered and the latter are not. Eat all the reindeer hotdogs you want, I'm sure they are delicious but the caribou meat has provided subsistence to Inuit and First Nations in Canada for millennia and collaborations of industry, governments, NGOs, civil society groups, educators and many others in the local areas that refer to caribou are concerned about their continued existence. Read some of their reports, analysis, data, dissertations like I have before deciding that because reindeer dogs taste good that with the limitless scope of wikipedia, there is not enough room for an article on caribou. Beeblebrox, I am sure that you are a good person who like myself is spending personal time volunteering on wikipedia as an editor. I really enjoy the time I spend here. I do not resent your concerns. I respect them. Oceanflynn (talk) 04:20, September 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * Noting for the record that despite the way the merge proposal is framed I don't particularly care which way the merge goes. I don't wish to get in an WP:ENGVAR pissing contest, I just don't think we should have two articles on the same subject. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Support as there is very little difference between the two articles. Plus we don't usually have different articles on the same subject just because they use a different name in other countries (eraser in North America but rubber in the rest of the world for example). There is one reindeer herd in Canada I know about. While I would prefer it to be at caribou it looks as if the original was at reindeer so caribou should probably be merged back there. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 16:45, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Do not merge. Both are now major articles. -- Kayoty (talk) 17:57, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Yes, that is rather the point. We now have two articles on the same subject, with much overlap between them, all based on a faulty premise that they are somehow two different subjects because in certain times and places they are known by different names. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:04, 28 July 2014 (UTC)


 * One article is on the reindeer of the world and the other focuses on the reindeer of North America (where they happen to be called caribou). Therefore two articles. Other pages focus on individual herds in North America and Eurasia. Therefore more articles on the same subject. -- Kayoty (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Reindeer were introduced to Alaska from Siberia last century so Alaska now has both the domesticated reindeer and the wild caribou.,, .-- Kayoty (talk) 04:36, 29 July 2014 (UTC)


 * Do not merge. Reindeer and caribou should have been kept separate in the first place. Reindeer are the semi-domesticated variant of caribou, and were quite likely domesticated at various spots around the world in the circumpolar North. There are definite physiological differences between the domesticated version and the wild species. The difference is not a question of terminology for the same animal between different countries, but between wild and domestic. For example, would you put the llama, alpaca, and vicuña all in the same article? Technically, they are all the same species. Deirdre (talk) 20:00, 11 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Do not merge. Reindeer and caribou. My motivation for creating the article caribou distinct from the reindeer article was frustration with the search for the term caribou in Wikipedia. School children in Canada, for example when asked to do research on caribou, an endangered species, often mentioned in news media, would be met with confusing information and images of reindeer. The body of current academic literature, government and NGO reports (data collection, etc), newspaper accounts referring to caribou is quite substantive and anyone wanting to learn more about the ecosytems, populations, ecotypes etc of the caribou only found a lengthy article on the largely domesticated reindeer herds in Eurasia including stories about Santa Claus, etc.


 * I began adding to the article reindeer to include content on "caribou" with many scholarly references that only used the term "caribou," in a section on Caribou in North America but there was criticism that the reindeer article had a North American bias. I then removed most of the North American material (leaving only a summary paragraph with inline citations and started an article entitled Caribou (North America). Eventually another editor changed the title to Caribou for which I was very grateful.


 * The article on caribou is about the four living subspecies of Rangifer tarandus, "locally known in North America as caribou, that only live in North America (mainly in Canada and Alaska): R. t. granti (Porcupine Caribou), R. t. groenlandicus and R. t. pearyi and R. t. caribou which is subdivided into ecotypes. In North America, because of its vast range in a wide diversity of ecosystems, the subspecies Rangifer tarandus caribou is further distinguished by a number of ecotypes, including boreal woodland caribou, mountain woodland caribou and migratory woodland caribou)." I think the taxonomy speaks for itself. The article Caribou entitled deals exclusively with certain subspecies and ecotypes of Reindeer tarandus that do not exist elsewhere. The Russian word for caribou is карибу (karibu) and the Russian word for reindeer is оленей (oleney). Oceanflynn (talk)14:12, 14 August 2014 (UTC)


 * confusing images of reindeer What is the difference between reindeer and caribou pictures, they are same, and why can't reindeer be consider an endangered species in Canada, and the stories about Santa Claus will make up only a very small portion of the article, it will also describe the ecosystems, populations, ecotypes etc in the majority of the article. Editor abcdef (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Rangifer tarandus is the species (family) and all the subspecies (and even ecotypes) whether in North America or Eurasia are quite different from each other in size, shape of body and size of antlers, colour of fur (seaonally). All the images in this article are of North American subspecies of Rangifer tarandus (caribou) and all the images in the article on Rangifer tarandus reindeer are from Eurasia. They may appear similar at first glance but they are not the same. You can see more images here and here Oceanflynn (talk) 04:20, September 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * If they are so very different, perhaps you would care to explain why the sections on their biology and behavior are nearly identical? You could also at least attempt to come up with some reply to the evidence I have presented above that the actual situation in North America is that the wild animals are called caribou and the domesticated ones are called reindeer, which directly contradicts your premise that they are always called caribou in North America. The whole premise of this split is flawed, it was sloppily done, and now we have two articles that are in large part just copies of each other. That is not a good thing. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I agree with the need to change those sections on their biology and behaviour. I will replace these sections. The fact that there are references from non-academic, non-governmental sources, laymen etc that refer to reindeer in North America does not negate the strength of the argument. Anyone searching wikipedia or Google for that matter, for caribou should come first to the wikipedia article entitled caribou, not reindeer as they did prior to 2013. This article is not about the entire species Rangifer tarandus but about caribou, a unique subset or grouping of subspecies and ecotypes that exist only in North America often in areas where habitat is being deforested and/or devastated. Their story is compelling, current and ongoing. Solid research undertaken on the topic caribou by new and stronger alliances between government, industry, NGOs and First Nations, Inuit and Metis, is resulting in a large and substantive body of publications that will be in many articles across the vast Wikipedia world. This story is not about elevators or lifts or nomenclature. The word caribou is used along with the word reindeer in some international research to distinguish between the two. But in the regions that still have viable habitat for caribou and remaining caribou herds, their needs and concerns need a wikipedia forum. A section in a large article entitled Reindeer as is proposed is just not enough and not acceptable. A new article entitled only Rangifer tarandus that speaks to generalized, overarching species wide global data with links to other articles on reindeer in Eurasia and caribou in North America would be one solution. The content about the wild reindeer in Russia alone is growing. No one article can adequately introduce this topic particularly when one of the first facts one finds is that the species is not endangered. The tone of the article on reindeer as it stands is overgeneralized and lacks sentence by sentence or at least paragraph by paragraph solid references. Facts come from webpages designed for children so generalized it does not adequately or reliably inform the reader. An example is the lead paragraph: "The reindeer (Rangifer tarandus), also known as caribou in North America,[3] is a species of deer native to Arctic, Subarctic, tundra, boreal and mountainous regions. This includes both sedentary and migratory populations. While overall widespread and numerous,[2] some of its subspecies are rare and at least one has already gone extinct.[4][5] Reindeer vary considerably in colour and size. In most populations, both sexes grow antlers annually, but females lack antlers in a few. Antlers are typically larger in males. Hunting of wild reindeer and herding of semi-domesticated reindeer (for meat, hides, antlers, milk and transportation) are important to several Arctic and Subarctic peoples.[6] The reindeer is well known in folklore due to Santa Claus's sleigh being pulled by flying reindeer, a popular element of Christmas.[7] In Lapland, reindeer pull pulks.[8]" Oceanflynn (talk) 2 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Do not merge. I think the articles have enough difference and are both large enough. Make sure the caribou article refers to reindeer for common topics.  Gierszep (talk) 18:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)
 * Gierszep, the size here is because much content is duplicated from the Reindeer article, and the multiple references and notes sections here are a huge mess. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge. Why should the scientific name of the species redirect to Reindeer, not Caribou, they are both the same species, the merged article can use half for North America and half for Eurasia, Reindeer sometime refer to domesticated and Caribou to wild though. Editor abcdef (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2014 (UTC)


 * Thanks for reminding us that the merger proposal is to merge Reindeer into Caribou (not Caribou back into Reindeer). I believe some editors are not aware of this.-- Kayoty (talk) 17:17, 2 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge caribou into reindeer Reindeer seems to be more widely used, so should be the article name. FunkMonk (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge caribou into reindeer. They are the same animal and there should only be one article. Why this much newer (Jan. 21, 2014 vs. Reindeer from 2004) caribou article was even created, with large copying from Reindeer (and still survived), is a mystery to me. It's basically a one-man project, and not a collaborative project. The consensus has always been (and admins always strictly enforced it), that a redirect exist pointing to Reindeer. Regardless of final title, there should only be one article. A merge needs to happen, and since the Reindeer article is the oldest and primary article, the merge should be into that one. The title can always be discussed. -- Brangifer (talk) 15:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)


 * With your recent edit on the Reindeer page it looks like you have already started merging the Caribou article back into Reindeer.-- Kayoty (talk) 00:36, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I see no reason why you deleted edits that were made prior to the merger proposal.-- Kayoty (talk) 01:12, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I have not taken anything from this article. I have only restored content which had been removed from the Reindeer article (quite a bit after this discussion was started). The attempt to split the subject had never been discussed or been a consensus or collaborative thing. It was a solo project. The talk page shows that objections were raised. The Caribou article has never really been accepted. For some reason I didn't even notice it existed until now, and was rather surprised. The main article still needs its original content, which is why I restored it. It should not have been removed. -- Brangifer (talk) 04:16, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Is this comparable to Grizzly bear being a different article than brown bear?


 * Comment. Isn't this entire discussion of a large problem with Wikipedia leaning even further to North American bias? Just look at the Reindeer article; it's already tagged as being NA-biased even before any merge attempt, as has been with countless general topics I've encountered. - 118.101.202.201 (talk) 11:20, 9 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Merge Caribou into Reindeer – I'm not an expert, but if they are the same animal, then the article should be under the name reindeer. "Caribou" is essentially a regional term, whereas "reindeer" is universally understood, especially because of Santa's reindeer, which are never referred to as caribou.

I believe you've created a controversy out of ignorance. What you're falling to recognize is equivalent to the difference between a collie and a shetland sheepdog (sheltie). The reindeer is the sheltie of the collie world. It is a subspecies (a semi-domesticated breed) that has changed as a result of its thousands of years of human interaction to become uniquely more compact and suitable to human use. No one would assume that border collies, shelties, long-haired collies, short-haired collies and australian shepherds are all the same breed of dog. "Reindeer" refers to a distinct breed of caribou, even if the breeding happened as a natural varietal by human interaction, but not so much by intentional breeding for certain traits. (Just as happened when collies morphed into shelties.) So, the distinct meaning of "reindeer" needs to remain clear, as it is as useful of a distinction as "sheltie" is when compared to "collie." Shelties developed out of the larger collie breed on the Shetland islands because food is scarce and humans had a preference for collies that didn't eat as much but could do just as much herding, and collies that didn't eat as much also tended to be more likely to live. Just as with Shetland ponies, everything that spent a great deal of time on the Shetland Islands developed into a smaller "breed."

Many other articles on the web recognize this difference, which for some reason the editor(s) here at Wikipedia can't seem to get their heads around: "Although the similarities between reindeer and caribou are numerous, the differences are enough that they are classified as two subspecies. Reindeer and caribou share the same genus, Rangifer, and species name, tarandus. Domestication is the biggest difference between reindeer and caribou. Reindeer are a semidomesticated subspecies of Rangifer, and there are many subspecies of both reindeer and caribou in Alaska. Both male and female reindeer and caribou grow antlers -- a trait unique in the deer family -- although female reindeer antlers grow larger than female caribou antlers. Many of the distinguishing traits are thought to be the result of domestication. Reindeer are shorter, stouter and more sedentary than their long-legged caribou cousins, and although reindeer may migrate within their grazing range, they do not migrate long distances between wintering grounds and calving areas as caribou do. Reindeer bulls are smaller than caribou bulls, but reindeer cows generally weigh the same as caribou cows. Reindeer have thicker, denser fur than caribou, although both have hollow guard hairs that keep them warm. Reindeer begin the breeding season about two to four weeks earlier than caribou, which results in reindeer calves being born at the end of April, while caribou calves are born at the end of May. Both have hooves that can be used as snowshoes for walking on the snow and for digging. Only in North America are wild Rangifer referred to as caribou. In Eurasia, reindeer are classified as either domesticated or wild. (http://news.uaf.edu/news/featured/04/reindeer/difference.html)" 98.247.189.249 (talk) 14:06, 1 June 2015 (UTC)David Haggith


 * Merge. I really don't see a reason to have two pages on the same species. Binarystep (talk) 04:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Merge Caribou into Reindeer In Europe and Asia the distinction is made by "wild reindeer" and "tame reindeer", but to have all wild reindeer in Euroasia called "caribou" is simply ludicrous. There is however one valid reason to keep separate articles, and that is if the specifics regarding the caribou grows too large to have it all included in the main article about reindeer. 212.181.175.199 (talk) 15:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)


 *  Merge  as both names refer to the same thing. Neutral on "which way" the merge goes. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 09:36, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Update - As there seems to be disagreement below, please count my Merge toward whichever preference is expressed the most. I do not interpret supporting a merge but not expressing a preference to mean merging into caribou is neccesarily preferred, so: Merge Caribou into Reindeer. — Godsy (TALK CONT ) 08:45, 23 August 2015 (UTC)


 * Wow, this has been open for a very long time now, but it looks like about 70% of those commenting support merging, and everyone who expressed a preference on how to do it thinks "reindeer" should be the article title, with "caribou" redirecting to it. That looks like a consensus to me. Beeblebrox (talk) 16:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)


 * There is no consensus. Where is this 70% figure? Please remember that the merger proposal is to merge Reindeer into Caribou.-- Kayoty (talk) 18:40, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * You keep saying that, but as the person who made the proposal in the first place I don't really need it explained to me, especially since you are incorrect anyway. I explicitly stated that I did not care which way it was merged, just that it probably should be. And even if I hadn't, it doesn't matter. If I propose ddoing it one way and consensus favored doing it another way, we do what conesus says.
 * The 70% number is based on looking at the comments and making a rough estimate of support. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:11, 22 August 2015 (UTC)
 * Merge has 4 votes, do not merge has 4 votes and merge caribou into reindeer has 4 votes. There is no consensus. -- Kayoty (talk) 02:18, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * There are 9 for merging, and 4 against. That's a consensus, with weight of 6 toward merging Caribou back into Reindeer, where most of the content derived. More content has been created, and that can be used to make the Reindeer article even better. -- BullRangifer (talk) 06:18, 23 August 2015 (UTC)
 * In the interest of wrapping up this proces I have asked at WP:ANRFC for an uninvolved admin or other experienced user to look at this and close it as they see fit. It's been back logged pretty bad so this may take a while, but it has already been a year and a half anyway. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:41, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Edits in September 2014
Because there is a motion to merge "caribou" and "reindeer" I have created this subsection to keep track of edits made so we can work cooperatively to wikify and improve this article. At this point in the discussion it is very important to support arguments with solid references.

Both User:BullRangifer and I have been working to improve the lede. In order to further clarify this article about Caribou (North America) I have created a subsection Nomenclature. This is the space for discussion on the discourse analysis and use of the terms reindeer, wild reindeer and caribou. I think this can be a very useful contribution to the article if we can amass a number of reliable sources that use "caribou and reindeer", "caribou" or "reindeer" so we can make a wikiclaim for legitimacy. I have added a subsection for citations and references so we can use references in this talk page. It is extremely important to avoid the blanket statements in the lede regarding nomenclature until we have enough reliable references that we agree upon to do so. The first sentence or sentences in the lede get picked up by bots all across the internet and are then automatically generated in hundreds of other sites. This can lead to false positives in terms of validity of truth claims.Oceanflynn (talk) 16:50, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Merge consensus, but no action
So, in Sep 2015, the conclusion of the debate to decide whether to merge the caribou and reindeer articles was that they should be merged - which is surely self-evident. Personally, I can't see that it makes much difference whether the new article is titled caribou or reindeer (although I would favour reindeer, on the grounds that 'reindeer' is used in both north America and Europe), the point is that 18 months later there are still two articles being added to, edited and generally pointlessly duplicating effort. What does it take for this to stop, and the merger to happen? Robocon1 (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Caribou in Oregon????
I'm working on the List of mammals of Oregon and will eventually propose it for featured list status. The List of mammals of Florida is a featured list built off the list from the American Society of Mammalogists list. The list from that organization for the state of Oregon is here. It lists Caribou! That seems unlikely given my other research. Any thoughts? &mdash; Gaff ταλκ 07:55, 24 October 2014 (UTC)


 * It appears that the only caribou range in the US is in the Selkirk Mountains which don't go into Oregon but the range does get close to Oregon. It may be an occasional visitor to the state somewhat like the American robin is to Nunavut or some of the animals at List of mammals of Nunavut. CBWeather, Talk, Seal meat for supper? 14:54, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

External links modified
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 * Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20131221032146/http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/esd/distdata/Peace_Region_Wildlife_Values/Fish_and_Wildlife/SAR_Info/Caribou/Boreal/Snake-Sahtaneh%20boreal%20caribou.pdf to http://www.env.gov.bc.ca/esd/distdata/Peace_Region_Wildlife_Values/Fish_and_Wildlife/SAR_Info/Caribou/Boreal/Snake-Sahtaneh%20boreal%20caribou.pdf
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Contradiction
The first sentence of the first two sections contradicts each other.

>Nomenclature

>The term "caribou" derives from the Mi'kmaw word "qalipu" (pronounced /kah-li-bu/), literally meaning "the shoveller".

>Naming and etymology

>The name caribou comes, through the French, from the Mi'kmaq xalibu or Qalipu meaning "the one who paws".[22]

I don't know enough to correct it. (Arguably the first one is in the wrong place. It's about nomenclature, not etymology)

edit: Also, the IUCN links for Caribu and Reindeer go to the same page, and that page says vulnerable, but the Caribu wiki page lists them as "least concern". Again, I don't know how to fix that, so if someone else could..

Poddster (talk) 21:47, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Another Contradiction
The first sentence of this article presently reads: "This article is about the North American animal. For the Eurasian animal, see Reindeer. For other uses, see Caribou (disambiguation)." This is nonsense. There is only one animal, with several subspecies. Read the debate on whether to merge the caribou and reindeer articles above, and the conclusion. Robocon1 (talk) 19:16, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * There is no such contradiction, this article is specifically about the North American subspecies, not the entire species. This is clearly stated in the first paragraph of the article. Mediatech492 (talk) 20:06, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Well, some (me included) would say that the North American and European caribou/reindeer are the same animal, and that there are then subspecies of the animal. In any case, there was a decision based on consensus to merge the caribou and reindeer articles 18 months ago. It seems odd that nothing has happened. Robocon1 (talk) 21:58, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * They are the same species, but different subspecies. There are many Wikipedia articles specific to particular subspecies and breeds, so it is not unusual for there to be an article specific to the caribou. There is more than enough information to warrant a separate article specific to the caribou, and this detracts nothing from the reindeer article. If there is a consensus among editors to merge the articles then someone would have done it. Mediatech492 (talk) 22:42, 6 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Please scroll up and read post no.9, Merge Reindeer and the conclusion: "There is consensus to merge the articles. The discussion was good and the arguments on both side stayed on topic. There is also strong support for merging caribou to reindeer. AlbinoFerret 20:41, 16 September 2015 (UTC)". Robocon1 (talk) 14:23, 14 March 2017 (UTC)


 * The fatal flaw in the subspecies argument is that it is based on the false pretense that one subspecies is always called "reindeer" while another is always called "caribou". Reindeer is a term people in North America are perfectly familiar with, and when the animal is ranched or farmed in North America it is always called a reindeer. Kids don't wait up on Christmas Eve here waiting for Santa and his flying caribou. In North America both terms are both used for the same animal, one denoting the wild and the other the domesticated, ragrdless of subspecies.
 * We already had this argument years ago, but such a hash was made of the content in the poorly-conceived splitting that it is now a daunting task to untangle and seemingly  nobody wants to do it, but with a pre-existing consensus it can be done by anyone who would care to try at any time without further debate. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
 * It is such a daunting task precisely because the Caribou article is constantly added to in defiance of the consensus ruling. Perhaps the only workable solution would be to simply delete it. In any case, the absurd opening statement (This article is about the North American animal. For the Eurasian animal, see Reindeer. For other uses, see Caribou (disambiguation) should be corrected, and that is something I will do for the time being. Robocon1 (talk) 10:17, 21 March 2017 (UTC)


 * Defiance? Seriously? Are you realy accusing other members of conspiracy? See WP:GF. Is really so hard for you to accept that a subspecies seperated by an entire continent might deserve a seperate article? Mediatech492 (talk) 14:14, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
 * Clearly not. Conspiracy is collusion, in secret, to do something harmful. Editing a Wikipedia article is a public activity. But choosing to ignore a consensus ruling is defiance. It's either that or ignorance. In any case, the ruling is there, but despite that, the article gets added to. It's not about 'a subspecies', either. Major sections duplicate the main Reindeer article. Robocon1 (talk) 21:46, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * You seem to be the only person who has any interest in this matter. So either do it yourself or drop the issue. Mediatech492 (talk) 21:54, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * You think I'm posting under the name Beeblebrox as well? Robocon1 (talk) 22:12, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
 * That is of no concern to me. Do it or get over it. Mediatech492 (talk) 23:28, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

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