Talk:Carmen Saliare

[Untitled]
There are several versions of Carmen saliare. I wonder which was written by Varro and which are later. -- jn 147.251.80.34 (talk) 11:37, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Corrupt text
That Varro's text is corrupt is acknowledged by all scholars. Many have attempted to emend it.

What is certain are the refernces made to the carmen in Festus sv. pa (L p. 222. 22): "Pa pro parte, et po pro potissimum positum est in saliari carmine". "Pa is said for part and po for most powerful in the c. s.".

Paulus Fest. epit. sv. Mater Matuta (L p 109. 4-7): "Antiqui ob bonitatem appellabant, et maturum idoneum usui, et manem principium diei, et inferi di Manes, ut supliciter appellati bono essent, et in carmine saliari Cerus manus intelligitur creator bonus". "The ancient called because of (its) goodness either the ripe (maturus) i.e. apt to use, and morning (mane) the beginning of the day, and the underworld  gods Manes, as they were invoked in supplication to be good, and in the c.s. Cerus manus is to be understood as good creator". (Cerus manus may be Ianus).

Basanoff Un texte archaique anterieur a' la loi de XII Tables in BIDR 14 (1935) pp. 209 ff.; V. Pisani Testi latini arcaici e volgari p.34 ff.; R. Giacomelli Storia della lingua latina Appendice 1993. Thesaurus Linguae Latinae sv. como Leipzig 1986 1411 ; W. Morel et al. Fragmenta poetarum latinororum epicorum et lyricorum Leipzig 1995.Aldrasto11 (talk) 05:05, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

+empta+
What does this +...+ style mean? A reconstructed supposition? 99.237.143.219 (talk) 15:38, 11 June 2013 (UTC)

Text
Thus: The text needs proper sourcing, not just of the original author (Varro, Scaurus) but also of the editor. And the numbering of the fragments needs a sourcing too.
 * Scaurus de orthographia : ed. F. Biddau 2008 has: "[...] in Saliari carmine: |«† cuine ponas Leuce si ae praetexere monti / |quotibeteunei de is cum tonarem †»" While differentiation of u/v and i/j might be missing and «» might be bad (French) style and † would need an explanation, it differs from WP's text in multiple ways.
 * TLL has "Divum em pa cante, divum deo supplicate." and "Cozeui oborieso. Omnia vero ad Patulcium | commissei. | Ianeus iam es, duonus Cerus es, duonus Ianus. | Venies potissimum melios eum recum" ("|" used for replacing line breaks). Again there are differences.

Ianeus iam es, duonus Cerus es, dunus Ianus. Ven< i >es po m melios eum recum. . .5 The coceulod orieso of the Salian Hymn. [text begins with mentioning 7 forms by editiors and 7 unspaced forms by manuscript] Compared with Maurenbrecher (and partly also Kent who mentions him), already the numbering at wikipedia is wrong: Varro in lib. VII gives fragments 1-3, and Scaurus is fragment 6. While Kent might in many parts be a guessing, his text makes sense (which "(thou shalt) come forth with the cuckoo" doesn't, though of course it might be because of missing text).
 * Q. Terentii Scauri [Nom. Q. Terentius Saurus] de orthographia liber; in: Grammatici latini ex recensione Henrici Keilii [= Heinrich Keil]. Vol. VII. Scriptores de orthographia. [...]. Lipsiae [Nom. Lipsia = Leipzig] in aedibus B. G. Teubneri MDCCCLXXX [1880], p. 28 :
 * [...] ut Numa in Saliari carmine
 * † cuine ponas Leucesiae praetexere monti
 * quot ibet etinei de is cum tonarem.
 * in versibus carminis Saliaris dedi scripturam codicis B cum P[omega] consentientem praeter haec, itinei de is] eunei de his P eunci de his [omega]. sed in P Leucesiae – eunei recentiore manu scripta sunt. duos versus Saturnios ita restituendos coniecit Bergkius [= Theodor Bergk?] ind. lect. Marburg. hib. a. 1847 p. XII, Cúme tonás, Leucésie, práe tét tremónti, Quóm tibeí cúnei décstumúm tonáront
 * Marci Terentii Varronis [Nom. Marcus Terentius Varro] de lingual latina, VII, 26 & 27; in: Varro on the Latin language with an English translation by Roland G. Kent. In two volumes. I Books V.–VII. [title part of vol. II: II Books VIII.–X. Fragments], 1938, pp. 292–295:
 * 26. [...] In multis verbis in quo4 antiqui dicebant S, postea dicunt R, ut in Carmine Saliorum sunt haec:
 * Cozevi oborieso. Omnia vero ad Patulc commisse< i >.
 * Cozevi oborieso. Omnia vero ad Patulc commisse< i >.
 * 27. . . . [...] Ab eadem voce canite, pro quo in Saliari versu scriptum est cante, hoc versu:
 * Divum em pa5 cante, divum deo supplicate.6
 * 4 Later codd., for quod F.  5 F has: Cozeulodori eso. Omnia uero adpatula coemisse. ian cusianes duonus ceruses. dunus ianusue uet pom melios eum recum. This is here emended as follows: Cozevi Havet; oborieso Kent; Patulcium Kent, after Bergk; commissei Kent; Ianeus GS., cf. Festus, 103. 11 M.; iam es Kent; duonus Cerus es, duonus Ianus Bergk; ueniet V, venies Kent; potissimum, cf. Festus, 205 a 11 M.
 * 5 Bergk, for empta.  6 Grotefend, for supplicante.
 * 26. [...] In many words, at the point where the ancients said S, the later pronunciation is R,d as the following in the Hymn of the Salianse:
 * O Planter God,f arise. Everything indeed have I committed unto (thee as) the Opener.g Now art thou the Doorkeeper, thou art the Good Creator, the Good God of Beginnings. Thou'lt come especially, thou the superior of these kingsh . ..
 * 27. . . .  [...] From the same radical came canite 'sing ye,' [correct: "ye',"] for which in a Salian versec is written cante, and this is the verse:
 * Sing ye to the Fatherd of the Gods, entreat the God of Gods.e
 * d The well-known phenomenon of rhotacism, the change of intervocalis S to R.  e Fragg. 2-3, pp. 332-335 Maurenbrecher; page 1 Morel. It is hazardous in the extreme to attempt to restore and interpret the text of the Hymn. These sentences seem to invoke Mars not as God of War, but in his old Italic capacity of God of Agriculture, spoken of in several functions. It was the view of L. Spengel, approved by A. Spengel, that this verbatim text of the Hymn was an interpolation, and that foedesum foederum of § 27 immediately followed in in Carmine Saliorum sunt haec.   f Cozevi, voc. of Consivius (epithet of Janus, in Macrobius, Sat. i. 9. 15), with NS developing to NTS as in Umbrian, the N not written before the consonants (cf. Latin cosol for consul), and z having the value of ts, as in the Umbrian alphabet.   g Epithet of Janus, in Macrobius, Sat. i. 9. 15.   h The god is addresses as more powerful than all earthly lords, whether kings or (perhaps) priests. The gen. plural eum, equal to eorum, is elsewhere attested.
 * c Frag. 1, page 331 Maurenbrecher: page 1 Morel.  d Here em pa stands for in patrem; so Th. Bergk, Zts. f. Altertumswiss. [= Zeitschrift für Altertumswissenschaft, or Alterthumswissenschaft?] xiv. 138 = Kleine Philol. Schriften, i. 505, relying on Festus, 205 a 11 M., pa pro parte (read patre) et po pro potissimum positum est in Saliari Carmine.   e Equal to 'father of the gods.' [correct: "gods'."]
 * ["Maurenbrecher" = "B. Maurenbrecher, Carminum Saliarum reliquiae; in: Jahrbücher für classische Philologie. Herausgegeben von Alfred Fleckeisen. Einundzwanzigster Supplementband. Mit einer Karte. Druck und Verlag von B. G. Teubner. Leipzig, 1894, S. 313ff. "? "Morel" ~ 'Willy Morel, Fragmenta poetarum latinorum epicorum et lyricorum, Leipzig 1927'? "Bergk" ~ ?]
 * III.—The Origin of the Latin Letters G and Z By Prof. George Hempl, in: ..., p. 26 & 39ff.:
 * In three of the medieval texts of Varro's quotation from the Carmen Saliare a z is found in the group cozeulodorieso (indeed, we were formerly told there were two: cozevlodoizeso, Seelmann, p. 319), but, as I shall show later (see page 39), the rarer reading coceulodorieso is the correct one, and the more frequent z is only a medieval spelling for c, both sounded ts.
 * IV. Appendix.
 * III.—The Origin of the Latin Letters G and Z By Prof. George Hempl, in: ..., p. 26 & 39ff.:
 * In three of the medieval texts of Varro's quotation from the Carmen Saliare a z is found in the group cozeulodorieso (indeed, we were formerly told there were two: cozevlodoizeso, Seelmann, p. 319), but, as I shall show later (see page 39), the rarer reading coceulodorieso is the correct one, and the more frequent z is only a medieval spelling for c, both sounded ts.
 * IV. Appendix.
 * Elegiac poems of Ovid | Edited by J. W. E. Pearce. | Vol. II | The Roman Calendar | Selections from Fasti, Oxford, 1914, p. 146 :
 * verba: i.e. the Carmen Saliare, of which some fragments are known. Here is one line as a specimen of the old language and the old metre: ''cumé tonás, Leucésie, praé tét tremónti (cum tonas, Lucetie, prae te tremunt), 'When thou thunderest, O god of Light (Jupiter), men tremble before thee'.

As for the translation (in WP added in August 2011‎, improved in July 2013), google gives only two possible sources: Religion and Law in Classical and Christian Rome (2006), or it being a WP creation. -84.161.26.136 (talk) 03:34, 23 April 2018 (UTC)