Talk:Catalan Way

NNPOV Article
In my view, this article is being used for Campaigning as described in WP:COI. This article is used in the following website as campaigning material to promote certain political views by a group of editors. In my opinion, this article does not follow Wikipedia's policy as it shows a tendentious approach WP:PEACOCK and WP:POV.--Arcillaroja (talk) 14:06, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Can you point out specifically the sentences that not follow NPOV? Thus, we can improve the article together. Note: I've expanded the article and I want to make clear that I do not belong to any pro-independence organization or political party. --Davidpar (talk) 16:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you NNPOV! It is too obvious that this article is charged with pro-Catalonian separation, which goes against common historical, cultural, and practical sense, and Wikipedia's "neutral" stance. But then again, there is much of that happening in Wikipedia. That is why universities discourage students from using it when doing serious, professional research or writing papers, except for pictures or basic data.

All wikitechnicalities aside, it is easy for Latvians to talk about independence for they were a sovereign country before Russia arbitrarily seized it and exploited it.

Nevertheless, Spain is not Russia for the former is a keyplayer in the Western World, while Catalonia is not Latvia for Catalonia was not forced to be part of a bigger state or undermined. Quite on the contrary, Catalonia is one of the components that made possible the formation of Spain as a modern state. On the other hand, Catalonia depends on heavy subsidies from Madrid which if stopped would undermine her economy. In fact, the rest of Spain has contributed to Catalonia's modern success thanks to more-than-fair reforms _on her behalf_ made to the Spanish Constitution after Franco's death in 1975. Also, before 1975, the Catalonian language was more than moribund for only senior citizens knew how to speak it. Nowadays, Catalonia is a rich region with a thriving language of 5 million speakers thanks to the special protection status received from the Spanish Constitution. Therefore, supporting Catalonian separatism would not only be backing up the destruction of Spain but it would also set the example for other regions in Europe to become independent such as Scotland from Britain, Alsace from France, Flanders from Belgium, Scania from Sweden, Bavaria from Germany, Milan from Italy, etc, etc, etc. In other words, radicalism disguised as independence only means the Babelyzation of Europe and that cannot be tolerated.

So, instead of trying to erode the unity of Spain, setting up a bad example, and embittering everyone else's lives with their pathological chauvinism, radical Catalonians should put their paroxysm aside and show more respect for the good of the country. In the meantime, since this radicalism has gone too far, Madrid should prepare herself by stopping the subsidies to Catalonia once and for good _to cut down on separatists' resources_ and re-assign them to other regions to gain support against Catalonia in case of a civil war.

By the way, Spain already went through the horrible consequences of a civil war in the mid-to-late 30's where there were more than 1 mill dead and a total destruction of the economy. Better safe than sorry!

Later! Martinete — Preceding unsigned comment added by Martinete (talk • contribs) 10:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)


 * I totally agree with the above opinion. It wanted to try to fix the article a bit but it would take a lot of effort to rewrite the whole thing and I honestly doubt that this article will have much interest once the separatism hype loses its momentum. Arcillaroja (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is not a forum (WP:FORUM). Please, no more loooong texts explaining why in your opinion Catalan independentism is so wrong. This talk page is about the Catalan Way, and discussion about empiric facts that happenedd on 11th September 2013. I've put the forum warning above too.-- Fauban  08:08, 23 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Wikipedia is surely NOT a pamphlet. This article is obviously Not Neutral. And That is thanks to editors that have an open political profile like you,Fauban. I would like to try to improve this article but I feel that the subject matter is too close to me. I advice other editors that could be biased on this topic to restrain from adding more tendentious information to wikipedia as whole and to this article in particularArcillaroja (talk) 14:26, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It's not obvious to me how it's not neutral. Is there something wrong with me? Should I call a doctor? CodeCat (talk) 16:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)

Anyone accusing an article of being a pamphlet should point out which statements are non-factual information. Otherwise, it is to be suspected that the reporter of Non-neutrality simply wants to reflect his/her own point of view. Please don't turn the Talk page into a forum to discuss political views. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.23.186.19 (talk) 21:27, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Moved from article
= Please solve ca.wikipedia.org SCANDAL =

Please solve future ca.wikipedia.org scandal, where a few extreme nationalists are shamefully banning Spanish flag, substituting by the local flag in the region of Catalonia. So, hilarious situations arise as replacing the flag of Spain by the local flag of Catalunya region, suggesting that the Kingdom of Spain did not exist at the 1888 Barcelona International Exposition or that lie: Spain did not participate in the Olympic Games of 1992, also censoring Spanish Olympic Committee to shamefully ban the Spanish flag in that list. Examples:


 * http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exposici%C3%B3_Universal_de_Barcelona_(1888) "Preceeded by Flag:Australia - Flag:Sovereign Catalonian State Succeeded by Flaf:France"

It's normal, extreme nationalism is excited using Wikipedia to invent history, that also goes to the extreme right or the extreme left -Why these people do not use their own wiki to invent their own stories they invented?-, but there is something a person can not to invent: the history. Like it or not, the history takes us we can not invent.
 * http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jocs_Ol%C3%ADmpics Olympic Games hosts: 1988 Seoul (Korean State Flag) 1992 (Catalonian local region Flag) 1996 Atlanta (USA Flag)
 * Hilarious: Barcelona is not in Spain, ¿who says it, FIFA?¿?. WTF is this Flag wars? http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selecci%C3%B3_de_futbol_d'Espanya
 * shameful: F.C. Barcelona player, Carles Puyol, played with Spain in year 2000, then he goes out of Spain and from 2001 to 2013 plays in "Sovereign-State-of-Catalonia-FIFA-recognized-Sovereign-Football-National-Team" hahahaha... http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carles_Puyol_i_Saforcada WTF?¿?
 * Hilarious situation in F.C. Barcelona: some SPANISH football players are from Spain, some NOT. https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/F.C._Barcelona This is a honest encyclopedia or a website of jokes?
 * Sad: The region to which we, its population (the Catalan speakers of this region too) have called "Comunitat Valenciana" (Valencian Community) by the Spanish Constitution and the region Statute of Autonomy. They call it "País Valenciá" (Valencian State or Valencian Country) because they please, putting some links to blogs and biased unknown institutes: http://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pa%C3%ADs_Valenci%C3%A0
 * Frustrating: If someone decides to change "Països Catalans" (or Catalan States or Catalan Countries -imaginary countries-) for "Spain" (Spain), in a list of football club tournaments throughout the Spanish territory (Zaragoza B, Orihuela, etc), suddenly appears a robot that automatically reverses any issue contrary to nationalism. hahaha Try it! diff: http://ca.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Organitzaci%C3%B3_del_futbol_a_Catalunya&diff=11883735&oldid=11883734

I (and the historians) hope you fix solution to this scandal, as this shameful ban of Spanish flags, as well as being full of hatred, goes against all historical encyclopedic accuracy, and goes against what Spanish and American municipalities, institutions, organizations and schools want to give to their children. Spain exists in 1888, in 1992, and Today, and either wikipedia will not change history under dark interests. Sorry for my bad english. But donations have to work with us, not against us. Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.141.161.13 (talk • contribs)

I say: For the rest of Wikimedia contributors that care, Catalonia is not an State, is a little region of Spain (official name: so stop of say those pack of lies. Spain was in Olympic Games, and Expo 1888 was in Spain, (not in "sovereign State of Catalonia" hahaha...) CONSENSUS CAN NOT CHANGE FACTS, I reported that the Catalan language is not unique to Catalonia, or 20% of its inhabitants nationalists, should be ashamed that attitude. Any historian will tell you that Spain exists, and not those lies nationalists who appear in a Wikimedia webpage hijacked by political interests (again, nationalism is 20% of the population of a small part of the land where the Catalan language is spoken). Please be encyclopedic, and stop Invent fictitious states to censor data that is a FACT.


 * FACT (do you see the "sovereign state of Catalonia" 0r "Zoltan independent galaxy State" here?¿?):


 * Spain, officially the Kingdom of Spain,is a sovereign state and a member of the European Union . It is located on the Iberian Peninsula in southwestern Europe. Its mainland is bordered to the south and east by the Mediterranean Sea except for a small land boundary with Gibraltar; to the north and north east by France, Andorra, and the Bay of Biscay; and to the west and northwest by Portugal and the Atlantic Ocean. Spain's border with Portugal (1,214 km long) is the longest uninterrupted border within the European Union.


 * Shameful. Spain exists. Be enciclopedic.
 * FACT (do you see the "sovereign state of Catalonia" 0r "Zoltan independent galaxy State" here?¿?):


 * ¿Can you see the difference? historians and children can, a webpage of Wikimedia can't:




 * ¿Why I am discussing this FACT? Spain was in Olympics. Cawiki, Don't be a group of liars. "Consensus" of lies are not enciclopedic. Be enciclopedic, please. Thank you.

--

Spain organized Olimpics 1992, and Expo 1888, not the "Sovereign-State-of-Independent-Catalonia" OMG hahahaha... what ignorants in cawiki, that's not the Wikipedia in Catalan language, that'a the "Personal Wiki of nationalist 25% of catalan speakers from 25% of catalan speaking territories". The rest of territories (Valencian Comunity -not "Independent Valencian State"OMG-, Balearic Islands, Aragón Comunity, etc... are catalan speakers, but they are blocked to edit wikipedia.

They don't let me put the sign "not neutral"
Cawiki nationalism miss causes a lack of neutrality. In "Referèndum d'autodeterminació de Catalunya" there is a 99% of links with nationalist ideologies. I keep writing, but they don't let me put the sign "not neutral". Please help.

By User:83.36.84.128, moved by Jamesx12345 16:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Do we need to keep this in the wikipedia? This comments are expressed in a unclear and childish way. In my opinion the pictures are unnecessary, and the fascits picture is offensive. Can the author of this comments be somehow rigorous and stay on the facts or remove this content? As it is, this should be considered vandalism. Thank you. --Xbosch (talk) 17:18, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It sounds like hysteric anti-catalan trolling and thus should be considered vandalism. Correjon (talk) 05:25, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * It may be hysterical, but it does make some amount of sense - ca.wikipedia.org is shockingly lacking in neutrality.129.178.88.82 (talk) 07:59, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Reaction in Spain?
So far there isn't any information about the reaction in the government of Spain as well as among the Spanish people in general. That makes it seem like this event went on without anyone batting an eyelid which seems very doubtful. Can information about this be added? CodeCat (talk) 11:48, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * ✅ Thanks for your comment. --Davidpar (talk) 18:37, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Reduce 'Background' Section dramatically
The Background section is way to long here. It is much longer than the part of the article that is actually about the Catalan Way. It also means readers have to scroll through a lot of tangential facts history to get to info about the Catalan Way. One or two paragraphs should be more than enough 'Background' and readers can click the link provided if they want more information. Background should just give a brief general context; if readers want more they can go to the other relevant articles. -- InspectorTiger (talk) 13:08, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I agree. This should be summarised with a link to the "main article". I suppose that would be Catalan independence, but that is currently lacking a description or timeline of the recent events, and focuses more on popular support. CodeCat (talk) 13:28, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Lack of English Sources in Citations
Of the 82 citations in this article only 11 are English sources which makes it difficult to impossible for English speakers to sort through. I understand this is about an event in a foreign country but this is the English Wikipedia and this event has been covered by many English language new organizations.69.8.223.38 (talk) 22:11, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I invite you to give me a hand! --Davidpar (talk) 18:30, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Turnout was low
In section "historical precedents" there is a statement regarding the local referenda saying "turnout was low". This looks like a personal opinion. Considering the lack of official support, and that turnout for real elections (Catalan and Spanish) is also quite low, 27% can be seen as an impressive number. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RainCT (talk • contribs) 15:06, 14 September 2013 (UTC)

Catalan is part of Spain
I understand the irony or the counter-movement aspect in this statement, but the fact that Catalan is part of Spain needs to be mentioned at the top of the article. I understand they don't want to be part of Spain anymore, but they currently are. And that would be useful information in an encyclopedia entry on the topic. Something along the lines of "was a 480-kilometre (300 mi) human chain in support of Catalan independence from Spain." 12.234.226.200 (talk) 21:40, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

When you say "they don't want to be part of Spain" it sounds as if you were speaking on behalf of all Catalonians. You should say "the pro-independent among Catalonians don't want to be part of Spain" instead. Because only a part of the Catalonians want to be independent. Most Catalonians (including me) feel they are both Spanish and Catalonians. Most Catalonians have some acenstors outside Catalonia. We can not think we are unique. Nazionalisms and independentism are very dangerous. Independentists are trying to segregate people. Catalonia has been part of Spain or Hispania for centuries, most of the time. Catalonia has never been a real nation. The Spanish language has been spoken in Catalonia alongside with Catalan, in different councils and social classes, but now they want to erradicate it from the education system. the same way independentists want freedom they should also allow freedom for non-independentists and accept that many don't think like them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.202.20.52 (talk) 18:58, 14 October 2013 (UTC)
 * That doesn't seem very relevant. The first poster correctly mentioned that it's an error to omit that Catalonia is currently politically a part of Spain, which is a matter of improving the article. But most of your reply seems more like you are trying to discuss the subject and its merits, and don't seem to be about improving the article. Talk pages are not discussion forums, please see WP:FORUM, so unless you can point out specific problems with the Catalan Way article, you should not post it here. CodeCat (talk) 20:56, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

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