Talk:Catboat

There is a difference between a catboat and a cat-rigged boat. A cat-rigged boat is any vessel with a single mast and a single sail. A catboat has a huge beam, almost half the waterline length, considerable freeboard, especially up forward, a single, stubby mast in the bow, and ordinarily a large, barn-door rudder and a centerboard, enabling the craft to sail in thin water. Though catboats ordinarily have a single gaff sail, a boat with the hull described above, is still a catboat even if it features a triangular sail or a summer rig, that is a jib in addition to the mainsail.Jim Lacey 21:36, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

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Description
Ref #2 has this description: "THE AMERICAN CATBOAT AND ITS HISTORY: ...the American catboat is probably best known as a shallow draft, centerboard vessel between 12 and 40 feet overall, with a beam half as great as its waterline length." This should not be taken as meaning that all catboats have a beam half as great as its waterline length, nor that this applies to non-American boats. David notMD (talk) 12:42, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * There is a substantial difference between a boat that is cat rigged (of which there are many) and a catboat (which is a specific type of boat). I think that is the problem you are having with this article, including the pictures that you have just added. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 12:46, 19 March 2022 (UTC)
 * I suggest that a useful authoritative source is Howard I. Chapelle's American small sailing craft, their design, development, and construction: Norton. ISBN 978-0-393-03143-0. This is the definitive work on American traditional boats. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 12:51, 19 March 2022 (UTC)

Likely and recent activity
Finding that I have some sources of authoritative relevance to this article, I will make a gradual job of expanding and improving it. I was surprised that John Leather's Gaff Rig covered catboats quite extensively. I have got hold of a copy of The Catboat Book and have Chapelle's American Small Sailing Craft and Jenny Bennett's Sailing Rigs an Illustrated Guide.

I have already got rid of the bit about poor windward performance, and the reference that came from ("What's in a rig" - some of the other rigs covered by that source are also full of errors.) All 4 sources listed above say catboats perform particularly well to windward in calmer waters.

Probably need to do a bit of work on the article structure as well.

I have concerns about the sources for some of the current types in production. The one I checked just now (the Zijlsloep) was simply advertising material. I don't believe that is acceptable as a source and could be put down as promotion. Therefore that part of the article should go. An independent review would be acceptable, but I can't find one. Please disagree now if you think I am wrong on this.ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2022 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for your work on this. A structure similar to yawl could be good -- sailplan vs. hull type.
 * Per WP:NOTDIR, the External links section is questionable, as is Further reading. If the linked content is any good it should be brought into the article and referenced, otherwise, generally, it should go.
 * The article currently says "Advantages ... include the economies derived from a rig with a limited number of component parts. It is quick to hoist sail and get underway" this should be qualifed that it is true of any such simple rig like a gaff or lug.
 * "The cat rig sails well to windward". Relative to what, a Bermuda rig without its jib? Such a rig (whether catboat or not) is going to be outrun by a full Bermuda rig to windward, but might catch up on the downwind leg. --Cornellier (talk) 18:56, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks your interest. The "sailing well to windward" bit is, in sources, a complete mess. There are several sources that say that you need a headsail to achieve the best windward performance. However, sources who are naval architects (as well as authors) are quite adamant that catboats sail well to windward. Chapelle is particularly clear on this and states that the moment you add another sail, the sails provide some level of interference with each other. (We all understand this with a ketch.) John Leather is also clear about the windward performance of the cat rig. The one proviso, again in sources with professional qualifications in yacht design, is that this is achieved in relatively calm water. The problem for a catboat (and for ships with a foremast that is positioned far forward) is the weight of the mast. This makes good windward performance difficult to achieve in rougher conditions. The whole business of headsails is a way to get the centre of effort in the right place without getting too much weight in the bows, so allowing a sharper bow. I am guessing that your view, if I understand it correctly, that a Bermuda sloop with headsail and main hoisted will perform better than a catboat is based on your own experience and observation. The problem with that (beyond you not being an RS) is that a different hull shape is needed in a catboat to support the weight of the mast in the bow. So you are never going to be comparing different rigs on similar hulls. That is why you have to rely on naval architects for the opinion. You might get some observational input by comparing cat rig (not the same as a catboat) with other similar hull shapes. Something like a Minisail (dinghy) doesn't seem to have a problem with windward performance.


 * I am not sure the article needs to discuss windward performance "relative to what" - if it does, there is going to have to be a whole list of different rigs and where are we going to find a reference for the relative performance difference between, say, a dipping lug and a catboat?


 * The point about quick and easy to get sail hoisted and under way is relative to any sloop, cutter, or whatever, where there is at least one extra sail to hoist. I really thought that was pretty clear - it immediately follows mention of the limited number of component parts. Obviously a standing lug on a single mast is equally quick and easy (exactly the same number of ropes to pull to hoist, except one of them is the tack downhaul instead of a halyard), but then the same "limited number of component parts" applies there too. I will find a way to rephrase. (Perhaps I am working too much with an unstated yardstick of the Bermuda sloop as the default comparison.)


 * Might not get to look at these points again today as short of time. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:03, 25 March 2022 (UTC)