Talk:Cham issue

Information from F.o. (British Foreign Office)
I' ve found some interesting piece of information that could be added in the: expulsion of the Chams and the collaboration paragraphs:
 * C. Woodhpise's report on 16 Oct. 1945: ... Zervas encouraged by the Allied Mission under myself, chased them (the Chams) out of their homes in 1944 in order to facilitate operations against the enemy (the Nazis)...

P.R.O. (Public Record Office), F.O. 371/48094/18138 most of the villages in this area (Fanari plain area) were occupied by force at one time or another during the winter of 1943-44 sometimes admittedly by Turko-Albanians (the Chams) with German equipment and support...They (Chams) assisted them in the old Hum and Balkan custom of village burning or followed them up so as to be able to loot whatever was worthwhile.
 * and about the collaboration:

(P.R.O.) London War Office (W.o.) 204/9348, 16 April 1945, Report on Albania, Minority in Epirus --Alexikoua (talk) 16:48, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Vickers
The number 2,771 victims, or 5,000 victims and the number 30-35,000 for evictees as mentioned by Vickers are stated by her to come from the CPA

''According to statistics provided by the Chameria Association in Tirana, in total 2,771 Albanian civilians were killed during the1944-1945 attacks on their villages. As a result of these assaults, an estimated 28,000 Chams fled to Albania'' The Cham Issue - Albanian National & Property Claims in Greece, paper prepared for the British MoD, Defense Academy, 2002

Mazower, using independent sources, cites 18,000 evictees

 the remaining inhabitants — some 18,000 — fled across the border into Albania. After The War Was Over: Reconstructing the Family, Nation and State in Greece, 1943-1960

Roudometof also disputes this number

''4. The Cham refugees set up associations and clubs. These have been revitalized after the collapse of the communist regime in Albania. According to the local officials they claim that the original Chams were 30,000 to 35,000 and that today their descendants number close to 170,000 (Kallivertakis, 1995: 50). Biberaj (1998:15) mistakenly reports that, in the aftermath of World War 11, “The Greeks expelled some 30,000 Albanians (Chams) from Chameria in northern Greece, accusing them of having collaborated with Nazi invaders.” The figure of 30,000 is adopted from the Cham associations without checking the other sources used in the discussion in this chapter. Also, the Chams’ collaboration with the Germans is a fact, not an accusation.''

Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question. Victor Roudometof p..181-182

I included it nonetheless explaining that it is as claimed by the CPA alone.

Xenovatis (talk) 16:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Nicholas Gage
While Gage is a good reporter Eleni is not an academic or news source. I suggest removing it under reliable sources. If there are any articles of his that provide the same evidence they could be used instead, otherwise a novel is not a reliable source. Xenovatis (talk) 12:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Rename
The article was biased towards only one side of the many atrocities that occured during the Nazi occupation of Greece. Also, there are only 2 occurances of the term "Chamerian Massacre" in Google (outside wikipedia and other wiki mirrors), indicating that the term is not commonly used. sys &lt; in 15:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Organization
The article really needs to organize its sources. The citations are incomplete and need to be refined in order to ensure that the statements in the article are properly sourced. Deucalionite 14:48, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Checking Sources
According to this quote from the 'cham albanians' article talk page, this source needs cross-checking against another :

I am not an expert on the issue per se but I have done extensive study of British SOE and US OSS activities in the Near East and Balkans during the war.

The long quote from Joseph Jacobs really leads the wikipeida reader astray. This eviction was specifically ordered by British liaison to EDES, Col. Chris Woodhouse, and he says so in his memiors. The British liason was not an advisor but the de facto commander as London and SOE controlled all supply and funds to the EDES resistance. In fact he had been sent to replace Col. Eddie Myers, who London believed was not attacking the Nazi allied Albanian's forcably enough. The British at the time in Balkans were working at cross interests and often in direct opposition to the US OSS work. The OSS was doing things the British did not like, like supporting non Monarchist resistanc groups, helping Jews evacuate to Palestine, etc. Jacobs also was has to be taken with a grain of salt. None of his reporting is actually first hand. Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cham_Albanians" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hjkhu789 (talk • contribs) 10:53, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

Interesting (Greek) article
There is an interesting article regarding the recent history of the Chams (especially the WWII events) in one of the most well established Greek newspapers. It was written from Stathis Kalivas who is Professor of Political Science at the Yale University of the USA and presents events from a book of a Greek historian Eleftheria Manta. According to this article E. Manta has made the one and only thorough historic investigation on the subject. The book was published in 2004, the article is dated 2005/12/04. Ndemou (talk) 12:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I'll try to include the relevant information.Xenovatis (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Ethnic cleansing
Added category ethnic cleansing. I realize it is possibly anachronistic since the term wasn't coined yet but 1. this is what it amounted to 2. Wiki uses the term for other events pre-1990's 3. Dr Kalivas of Yale has termed it such, although it is on a Greek source so I am not sure it can be used here, (article above in this page) Xenovatis (talk) 21:35, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

"blackmail"
Inline citation: "The cancellation of the proposed talks between the two presidents was an over-reaction by the Greek authorities, as well as implied blackmail by inferring that “Albania’s European ambitions” would in some way be damaged by the country encouraging extremist activity". It is totally sourced. Do not remove it.Balkanian`s word (talk) 20:50, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I deleted it because Vickers didn't add a citation about it (i know she says that, but she has proven wrong on several facts). So claiming that a state Government blackmails without proves is far from enyclopedic level of writing. Maybe similar papers and books describe the same situation using different approaches. Moreover Vicker's citations on the 2007 paper are all based on Albanian newspapers, so the 'rs' is questioned. Alexikoua (talk) 21:29, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

I believe we can put this sentence instead: 'bribing Albanian politicians through enabling them to spend their time in Greek taverns' (Vickers 2007), as long as there is live bouzouki included, else doesnt make sense.Alexikoua (talk) 21:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)


 * As long as a Reliable Secondary Source says it, it is not we that decide whethear she`s right or wrong. Unless, you find a reference that it was no blackmail in this issue.Balkanian`s word (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * We can see if she is reliable or not, though, and based on what has been said about her sources, I don't think we can consider her reliable.--Michael X the White (talk) 14:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
 * What Alexikoua says about her sources, because he cites in her two papers about Chams a lot of books, studies, even Greek ones.Balkanian`s word (talk) 15:03, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

The way to assume that a Government blackmails another (from where did she know that? didnt cite) is serious. Vickers did not use a primary source (suppose it was on Albanian newspapper like many other claims adopted in the 2007 paper) on that.Alexikoua (talk) 18:12, 21 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Don`t suppose, just cite. That`s wiki policy: a secondary reliable source is just cited in the page.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:11, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

That's not me. Vickers makes assumptions. Wait to see from where she got this information.Alexikoua (talk) 11:32, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
 * SHe clearly got this information by reading the statements of the Greek govenrment. Its far too obvious.Balkanian`s word (talk) 11:34, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

B.w., you are misunderstanding the nature of "reliable sources" in relation to WP:NPOV. In the passage you cite, Vickers is clearly not reporting a fact, but expressing an opinion, a political interpretation of the facts. That's fine, of course, and doesn't stop her work from being a (decent-ish) reliable source. Unlike us here, writers in the academic world are not married to a rule of NPOV; they are perfectly entitled to let her personal assessments and opinions shine through. But we here must then not take their word for God's Truth. Working on the basis of sources does not mean we simply take over their opinions. We need to sort out facts from evaluation, even when dealing with the very best of sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)


 * BTW, Balkanian`s word, you have just also breached 3RR on this issue. It might be a good idea for you to place yourself voluntarily under a revert limitation of some sort, because otherwise that's what I'm going to ask for at the WP:AN3 board, together with the standard 3RR block. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:32, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

Plagiarism
The following text is from Vickers (2002:8): "In January 1991, as the one-party state in Albania was disintegrating, the Chameria National Political Association (Chameria Shoqeria Politike Atdhetare, CSPA) was founded as a political lobby to "express and defend" the interests of the people of Chameria." This is verbatim the beginning of the section "Political Positions". I haven't checked for other instances. I'll try a rewrite if I have time... Mundart (talk) 02:42, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

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I've just come across this article whilst surfing. In my view, it's clearly been written by someone whose mother tongue is not English. No criticism is intended. I do not intend to change any meanings, although sometimes the passive voice is better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Graemem56 (talk • contribs) 09:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)