Talk:Chan Kam Lee

I have removed the reference to Mandarin words because Chan Kam Lee is a name and not a word in the Mandarin language. Furthermore some Chinese people living in Hong Kong at the time had both Cantonese and Mandarin names, just because a report includes a subject's Cantonese name does not necessarily imply that they were born in a Cantonese speaking area, it may just mean that they used the Cantonese version when in a Cantonese speaking area in the same way many Chinese who come to Britain may choose to use a British name instead of their Chinese name. The words Chan Kam Lee are in the English language reported by an English speaker, not Chinese characters, so it's difficult to say exactly what the Chinese pronunciation or characters would be. Speculations like this which are not verifiable reports to do with the subject should really be on the talk page because they are opinions and constitute original research.Chuangzu (talk) 16:15, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

There are problems with this verifiability section, firstly there are links to Lee style websites which are not really independent sources but more like self publishing. Secondly some of the statements are not backed up by proper references and are probably people's personal opinions. If people are going to make statements on the main page they should be backed by references or else put on the talk page as speculations.Chuangzu (talk) 16:34, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

I have moved the consistency and verifiability section to the talk page where it belongs because it appears to be the opinion of an editor and is debatable, if anyone wants to discuss this please do so here and not on the main page which should consist of verifiable information solely from reputable published sources. The main article makes it clear that the account of Chan lee given to us by Chee Soo is from his book published by Harper Collins a reputable publishing house and the constant repetition in the article of doubts and aspersions tend to undermine WP:NPOV. I have also removed various self published sources from websites promoting the Taoist Arts of Chee Soo which do not appear to meet Wikipedia criteria for verifiability and original research.Chuangzu (talk) 06:42, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Consistency and Verifiability
Other than Chee Soo's account, it is not clear that there is any further evidence of Chan Kam Lee's existence. Chee Soo states that, at the time of Chan Kam Lee's death in 1953/1954, there was an Association of Lee-style t'ai chi ch'uan clubs, of which Chee Soo eventually became President in 1959, there is no further evidence for this except the report of his daughter Lavinia Soo-Warr.

The lack of further documentation to support Chee Soo's reports could be partly explained by the historical events in China during the twentieth century and in particular Weihaiwei such as:
 * 1895 The First Sino-Japanese War where the Chinese fleet was sunk at Weihaiwei after a sea battle and subsequent invasion by the Japanese army,
 * 1898-1930 Weihaiwei under British rule after which all official documents from Weihaiwei were removed to Britain in 1930 ,
 * 1895-1901 The Boxer Rebellion which started in Shandong province and involved the Chinese regiment at Weihaiwei
 * 1911 The Chinese Revolution of 1911
 * 1927-1950 The Chinese Civil War.
 * 1937-1945 The Second Sino-Japanese War The Japanese invasion of Shandong provice and North East China.
 * 1946−1950 The Communist Revolution
 * 1966-1976 The Cultural Revolution
 * Chan Lee did not teach his Taoist Arts in public but kept them within his family as was not uncommon for similar Chinese Martial Arts at the time. As Chee Soo says: "I believe it was my destiny, which put me in the right place at the right time, enabling me to meet my Master, CHAN LEE, who taught me the secrets of the Lee family styles and methods. It became my duty, when he died, to keep the ancient wisdom alive, much of which has been lost in China."
 * Chee Soo states in an article in Chalice magazine: "It turned out that he (Chan Lee) was a Taoist exile, having escaped from 'war-torn' China, being the only surviving member of his family." Chuangzu (talk) 11:59, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

All of these factors tend towards the conclusion that any documents that may have been kept will not have survived successive regime changes and military conflicts. Unlike the other T'ai Chi styles derived from the Chen village story the Lee style did not participate in the Communist promotion of T'ai Chi as a sport in the 1950's because it had already moved to Britain in 1933 (according to Chee Soo) so it has not received the same degree of publicity in China. However there are now new sources of T'ai Chi being reported such as Wudang and Zhaobao which cast new light on the historical origins of T'ai Chi as not solely deriving from the Chen village. Archaeological evidence in China from Mawangdui is throwing new light on evidence that Taoist breathing exercises and movement sequences similar to T'ai Chi have their origins in antiquity. Chuangzu (talk) 07:17, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

It is not reported in the Wikipedia List of shipwrecks that there were any fatal shipwrecks in fierce storms off the coast of China in the winter of 1953 / 1954. However this list is not complete, for example even the category one Typhoon Marie (1954) was reported to have caused over a thousand ships to be lost or damaged: "Typhoon No. 15 sank several other cargo ferries and some 200 other sea vessels on September 26. Although the other ferries did not carry passengers, approximately 275 crew members were killed, which brought the total number of fatalities at sea to more than 1,430. The total death toll (on land and sea) across Japan from the typhoon exceeded 3,000, with the number of vessels destroyed, damaged, or sunk estimated at about 1,130." , whereas during 1953-3 typhoon season there were several category five super-typhoons in a total of 24 severe recorded storms. If we look at the List of shipwrecks more closely we can see that they are largely reported by the Times of London, the severity of a Typhoon in itself may have affected the reporting of shipping losses. If we consider Typhoon Haiyan for comparison we can see that a category five storm creates widespread and severe disruption. Chuangzu (talk) 11:59, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

There are still major concerns about the consistency and reliability of this article. There is no other evidence presented of Chan Kam Lee's existence other than Clifford Gibbs/Chee Soo. Some Internet sources portray Clifford Gibbs (aka Chee Soo) as a fantasist who created a fictional Chinese teacher in order to suggest a continuity of teaching back to mainland China, whereas his arts were actually a synthesis of Japanese teachings (early films of Gibbs show him teaching what are clearly Aikido techniques as "Chinese Aikido" or "Qu Shou" which eventually was to become "Feng Shou") - if this is not true, it should be possible to quote other sources for the existence of Chan Kam Lee, other than from Clifford Gibbs (or coverage on him). If Chan Kam Lee existed and was a trader who founded Taoist and Tai Chi organisations, there will be records of him independently from Clifford Gibbs' accounts. I am going to add a "Disputed" tag to this article for the moment, until other sources for Chan Kam Lee's actual existence and history are presented that will give back-up to Gibbs' account. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.246.201.248 (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2016 (UTC)


 * This article contains reputably published sources from major publishers as references. Your comments however appear to be based on 'some Internet sources' but you have neglected to provide any references to them so we can check them for reliability. The other comments you make whilst they may be of interest to you are simply your opinions and in Wikipedia terms they are Original Research WP:NOR and are not permissible on an article main page.Chuangzu (talk) 20:09, 21 February 2017 (UTC)


 * I have removed the proposal for deletion tag as anonymous user 84.246.201.248 (talk) has not provided any comments about this on the talk page. I disagree with the proposal because there are several reliable independently published sources that mention Chan Kam Lee including five books published by an internationally renowned publisher, these books were also published by several other publishers in translation around the world. This means the subject is notable and mentioned in independent sources. I have also added a couple of other references to an LBC radio interview and an article published in Combat magazine which also mention Chan Kam Lee. What I suggest is that instead of proposing the article for deletion and adding tags on the article page we spend some time researching further sources and discussing them on the talk page.Chuangzu (talk) 00:23, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

=Proposals for research= I propose we start some research into corroborating evidence for this article. Although the sources we have are from reliable third party sources and are not self-published, it would improve the article if we could find some more evidence. What I propose is we start from the statements that we have from Chee Soo and Lavinia Soo-Warr and try to find further documented evidence to confirm or deny these statements. I know you have been talking to people on martial arts forums anonymous user 84.246.201.248 (talk) but there is no guarantee that these people's opinions are reliable, we don't even have evidence that they practise martial arts or know anything whatsoever about the subject just their own word which is opinion and in Wikipedia terms this is classified as WP:OR and not suitable for inclusion in the main article.

Here are some areas of interest for research, I am going to start working my way through them and I will post results on each section as I make progress, if anyone can help out or come up with more suggestions please feel free to post your ideas here. Chuangzu (talk) 13:30, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

=Research topics for this article=

Red Lion Square
Chee Soo and Lavinia both say that Chan Lee held a class in Red Lion Square. Chee Soo says the class resumed after the war so if this is the case it was not in the bomb damaged portion of the square which was redeveloped in the 1950s as you can see from Google maps.

"All the Taoist Arts, such as Taoism, Taoist Yoga (K'ai Men), Taoist Philosophy, Taoist Healing, Taoist Meditation, and T'ai Chi Ch'uan and other accompanying arts were first introduced into England by a Chinese businessman, Professor Chan Lee, who in 1930 started the first club in London for those who wished to learn the Arts. Because of the war the club had to close in 1939, but re-opened again in 1950 and shortly afterwards a second club was started in East London."

We may be able to find documented evidence for these assertions. We should look at photographs of Red Lion Square of the period 1930-1939 which is when the club was running and look at likely candidates. Chee Soo says the club was a small private club for Chan Lee's associates and their families so it probably wasn't advertised publicly. However Chee Soo says it was in a schoolroom so it's possible there may be some records that can corroborate this or possibly give us clues to other areas of research. I have found some pictures of Red Lion Square on Google images and the possible candidates for this club appear to be Conway Hall, St George's college, and University Tutorial College. Approximately half of Red Lion Square was destroyed in an air raid by the Luftwaffe in 1941 and redeveloped after the war so it may be the case that the schoolroom and any records were destroyed at this time.

Conway Hall Ethical Society
Was built in 1929, it is a good candidate because it had rooms for hire and was an ethical society that promoted free thought and secular humanist values. I have contacted the archivist and they have searched their available accounts but there is no record of a Chan Lee hiring a room there. However there is a gap in the financial records from 1931 to 1939. They checked the minutes of their meetings and no mention there either. Although it's possible the class was held here it seems unlikely because it is not a schoolroom as Chee Soo reports. Chuangzu (talk) 14:55, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

University Tutorial College
Opened in 1930 and destroyed by the Luftwaffe in 1941. Address is 32 Red Lion Square. I checked their archives but no result there. The records were probably destroyed in the bombing. They suggested contacting the School of Oriental and African Studies.

St George's College
St George's secretarial college is the closest fit for a schoolroom in Red Lion Square built in 1909 at 2 Red Lion Square. They took some bomb damage during the Blitz. They eventually became the Strand School and I have contacted their archivist.Chuangzu (talk) 14:11, 6 March 2017 (UTC) I found this picture no longer available so I have uploaded it to our server. St George's College 1941 bomb damage

SOAS, University of London
Although the School of Oriental and African Studies is not in Red Lion Square they were active in the field of research into China at the right time and may have had some kind of contact with Chan Lee. Reports of Chinese intellectuals emigrating from China to other countries such as Singapore and Malaysia suggest that it was common practice to establish clubs and educational societies in the Chinese diaspora overseas as a way to preserve Chinese culture, they were afraid it was being destroyed at home so they wanted to export and preserve it in other countries. This means it is possible that Chan Kam Lee was involved with other Chinese intellectuals in the Chinese diaspora in London in which case he may have known people at the S.O.S. Chee Soo tells us that Chan Lee came from Weihaiwei in Shandong and Sir Reginald Fleming Johnston who was the governor of Weihaiwei taught Chinese at the SOAS from 1931 so we know there is a link with London and Weihaiwei at the right time. Incidentally Sir Reginald was also tutor to Puyi the last Emperor of China so he is a very notable person. I have contacted their archivist.

Chan Lee in Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan
Chee Soo tells us Chan Lee was in Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan and London. Can we find any evidence of this?

Census data

 * Every ten years there is a Census with the exception of 1941. However the 100 years rule prevents us from seeing actual census data from any census less than 100 years ago, we can only see general statistical trends.Chuangzu (talk) 13:40, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * There was no census in 1941 and the 1931 census was destroyed by fire during the second world war unrelated to any bombing. The 1921 Census data will become available in 2021. This is unfortunate because this is exactly the time period when Chan Lee was living in London. It's possible he may have been recorded in the 1921 Census which was taken in Weihaiwei. Chee Soo says Chan Lee was an old man in 1934. That means we can estimate his age as approximately sixty maybe older. This would put his birth date at around 1874. If he was involved in the jewel trade in Hong Kong, Singapore and Japan it's quite possible he was not actually living in Weihaiwei but only grew up there and left as an adult which would be around say 1892. This was before the British formed a colony in Weihaiwei and the Census wouldn't apply. It's possible there was a Census in Hong Kong which was British territory from 1842.

Chan Lee in Holborn
Chee Soo tells us that Chan Lee was in the jewel trade with offices in Holborn. This is most likely the jewellery quarter of Hatton Garden the world centre of the diamond trade at the time. Can we find any mention in archives or a possible location for Chan Lee's office? His office might be registered with the phone company, Inland Revenue, Electricity company, Gas board, Insurance companies etc. There may be some archives related to the diamond trade.

Camden History Society
I have joined Camden History Society, they publish a monthly magazine, I will ask them if they know anything.

Chan Lee in Weihaiwei
Can we find evidence of Chan Lee in records from Weihaiwei?

Chan Lee spelling
There's a possible problem here, Chan Kam Lee is an anglicised version probably of a Cantonese spelling. We know from Chee Soo's account that Chan Lee was in Hong Kong and maybe used the Cantonese name in London. At this time Hong Kong was the major connection between China and Britain. However Weihaiwei is where Chee Soo says Chan Lee was born and this is a Mandarin speaking area, so his name in this area would most likely 李陈金 Pinyin: Lǐ chén jīn.

Surname Lee or Li?

 * There are two possible problems with the surname. Firstly there's no name Lee in Mandarin or Cantonese, Lee is an anglicized spelling, the name is more likely Li pinyin Lǐ (李) (3rd tone) the most common, but there are other less common Li Families.


 * In Chinese the custom is to put the surname first. Chee Soo might have only heard the name spoken and not written down in which case we don't have the original spelling only an anglicized version. This leaves the possibility that he was not in fact from the Li family but Chan Kam Lee - or more correctly in Pinyin Mandarin if we look at Chinese surname- 陈金李 Chén jīn Lǐ from the Chen family.
 * Chan 陈 - arrange; exhibit; narrate; tell; aged/old; stale; vintage; to state; to display; to explain
 * Kam	金 - gold/golden
 * Lǐ 李 (3rd tone), the 2nd most common surname in China, shared by 100 million people worldwide. The character also means "plum". Commonly spelled as Lee in Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan, and many other overseas Chinese communities.
 * So Chan Kam Li means "Old gold plum".

Coincidentally the surname Chen is also from the original Chen village orthodox Tai Chi style. This means the Lee style could actually be a version of the Chen style. It may be worth looking if there is any such person in the Chen family lineage. Chuangzu (talk) 11:12, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Macrobiotics court case
Chee Soo told us during a T'ai Chi class in Leamington Spa that he was sued by 'Macrobiotics people' at the High Court in London, he said the judge found in his favour and that the Chang Ming diet was the older diet of the two. He also said that the papers are all there at the High Court. I have phoned another teacher of Lee style Tai Chi who was present at the time and he has confirmed the story. If Chee Soo successfully defended himself at the High Court and managed to convince a High Court judge of the authenticity of his claims I am sure he would have had to present some very compelling evidence. This would be much more than just claims, it would have to be documentary evidence. If we can track this case down and find the papers it would quite probably give us some hard evidence of Chan Kam Lee and the Lee style in London and the link to China.Chuangzu (talk) 14:02, 6 March 2017 (UTC) We need to know: Chuangzu (talk) 14:19, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
 * The name of the plaintiff
 * Case number
 * The date of the case
 * Name of the judge
 * Names of any lawyers or other people involved.

We could also try contacting people involved in Macrobiotics. George Ohsawa died in 1966 so it probably wasn't him. Michio Kushi is one candidate who might know something.
 * Michio Kushi died December 28, 2014.Chuangzu (talk) 22:38, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Searching legal databases

 * I have contacted a solicitor who has searched | Bailli.org legal database but returned no results, however without knowing the plaintiff it's difficult to get good search results. He used Michio Kushi and George Ohsawa as possible search terms.
 * |Bailli FAQ says that Bailli.org is not a comprehensive database and some cases are missing due to copyright issues.Chuangzu (talk) 20:05, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

Copyright cases would be held in the Chancery division. Papers are kept for ten years and then destroyed or transferred for deposit to be kept at the locality of the case rather than at the High Court. Only files of special interest would be transferred to the deposit section.
 * Another solicitor has searched the Westlaw and Lexis database but with no results, then he contacted the law society and requested they search for any records related to the search terms: Chee Soo; Cliffiord Gibbs; Cremonesi; Macrobiotics; Chang Ming; Tao of Long Life. The Law Society replied that the search of the Justis cases database did not return any results. They say it's possible the case may have been settled out of court. This database may only contain cases of significance in influencing case law.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_st=adv&_aq=diet&_dss=range&_sd=1974&_ed=1980&_ro=any&_ps=60
 * Chancery cases search at National Archives after 1875 gives these results:

Guide to Asian diets.
At Nottinghamshire archives

Trial of the Diets.
No idea what this is but it's at Kew.

Final trial of the diets 1975
Reference MINT 20/4470

Final trial of the diets: press release
Reference MINT 20/4471

Trial of the Diets MINT 27
Reference:	MINT 20/4469

However these records also may not be exhaustive, what we need is a list of all court cases held at the Chancery Division of the High Court from 1974 to 1980.Chuangzu (talk) 22:36, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Please do not WP:TAGBOMB this article, if you have an issue or specific suggestion please discuss it here on the talk page.Chuangzu (talk) 09:59, 7 March 2017 (UTC)